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Author Topic: Alternative female mage art?  (Read 46822 times)

webcatcher

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2013, 07:08:50 PM »
Quote
If you want better depiction of women in fantasy games.....well.....here it is. Courtesy of Mage Wars.

The expansions have taken some steps to redress the way Mage Wars depicts women (I'd particularly like to thank the art director or whoever it is for putting the third named angel in armor, since the first two were less tasteful), and Incantation cards with fully clothed women on them are nice, but it doesn't change the fact that three out of the four female mages are essentially wearing lingerie. That's what's really giving the impression that Mage Wars equates women with eye candy.

Aylin

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2013, 09:30:35 PM »
I don't really want to get involved in this argument. However, here are some more appropriately dressed female mage cards for anybody that absolutely has to have an alternative:



Others for stylistic consistency:


@ACG

Problem solved! Well, we need opposite sex representation of all the mage types also so we need a Male J Beastmaster and a Female S Beastmaster, a male Druid, etc., remember keep it androgynous, as there is no difference between male and female....

Could you please keep the straw men out of it? Thanks.

Also you should know that the J. Beastmaster was released as the female version of the S. Beastmaster.

Trotsky

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2014, 05:40:49 AM »
I agree with many here that AW did not intentionally choose artwork that objectified women,  however the situation is that some of the artwork does.  My modest proposal for alternative versions of the female mages was not an attempt to elicit such a conversation as has developed here but I have found it edifying to hear so many voices taking this issue seriously and understanding how the egregious portrayal of women,  even in a game,  is distasteful and archaic.

It is testament to the passion that players have towards Mage Wars that this issue has been taken so seriously.  There are many, many games available to play and the easiest solution is to walk away from any that players find distasteful,  some of my opponents feel thus and this limits my personal enjoyment of the game as it gets fewer plays.

To some this issue might seem insignificant,  either their own view does not regard the objectification of women as important  or they prefer to view a fantasy world in a historically 'male-centric'  manner. But to many of us this is a pressing issue, I have two daughters and wish them to have all the opportunities my son will have. These are big issues, which will not be solved by changing a few female depictions in a niche game in a niche hobby.  However, AW as a publisher, has a responsibility to consider these issues when commissioning artwork,  I do hope they listen and consider the views expressed on this thread.

So to bring it all back to my original request - some alternative female artwork would be fantastic...

webcatcher

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2014, 07:24:15 AM »
As someone suggested earlier, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is on this and would gladly pay for an alternative art pack that had new cards for the priestess, J. beastmaster, druid, the two core named angels, and maybe a guardian angel or two.

aquestrion

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2014, 09:08:30 AM »
I suggested neutrally classed alternate mage cards, Not reissued cards. I wanted brand new cards and I am not willing to pay for cards I already have even if they are scantily clad.

Shad0w

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2014, 06:34:37 AM »
That should make everybody happy. I've singlehandedly solved the issue- Your all welcome.

It doesn't solve the issue as it doesn't change how AW presents female mages or creatures.

Using markers or Photoshop (depending on the skill of the person using it) won't allow the artwork to look natural with the rest of the set. It'll stick out like a sore thumb.
I think that we should have all women dressed in Burka's and the men dressed in heavy armor with closed helmets. This way no one will know what or who anyone is. Are they good looking or ugly? Tall or Short? Thin or Fat? This would solve the problem with the human (or not so human) form. We just don't want to look at it, as it is bad and detracts from a game about maiming and killing others.

TBH- this touches on what is the actual issue here of what is culturally acceptable and personally tasteful. This issue is far less about anybody being in the right or in the wrong- its far more about what people perceive (in their own veiw) to be right or wrong. (Now I am commenting something relating to the issue on the thread......oh God.)

You got lured in again. This time you even warned yourself.
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Shad0w

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2014, 06:57:38 AM »
I agree with many here that AW did not intentionally choose artwork that objectified women,  however the situation is that some of the artwork does.  My modest proposal for alternative versions of the female mages was not an attempt to elicit such a conversation as has developed here but I have found it edifying to hear so many voices taking this issue seriously and understanding how the egregious portrayal of women,  even in a game,  is distasteful and archaic.

It is testament to the passion that players have towards Mage Wars that this issue has been taken so seriously.  There are many, many games available to play and the easiest solution is to walk away from any that players find distasteful,  some of my opponents feel thus and this limits my personal enjoyment of the game as it gets fewer plays.

To some this issue might seem insignificant,  either their own view does not regard the objectification of women as important  or they prefer to view a fantasy world in a historically 'male-centric'  manner. But to many of us this is a pressing issue, I have two daughters and wish them to have all the opportunities my son will have. These are big issues, which will not be solved by changing a few female depictions in a niche game in a niche hobby.  However, AW as a publisher, has a responsibility to consider these issues when commissioning artwork,  I do hope they listen and consider the views expressed on this thread.

So to bring it all back to my original request - some alternative female artwork would be fantastic...

I was hoping for a Swift style satirical essay(would have give 2-3 stickers) . The chance has passed the moment is gone.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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DeckBuilder

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2014, 09:11:40 AM »
I would have taken the bait, Shad0w, but I've actually changed my position on this issue.
After further discussions on passive media sexism, I've had an epiphany, a Road to Damascus conversion.
Two factors (among others) were instrumental in changing my mind.


(1) Mass Perception vs. Enlightened Perception

I may be modernist enough to see self-parodying humour in Barbarella-style media, which Mage Wars definitely models itself on, whilst still retaining my respect for women, a belief that beauty pageants are crassly offensive and promote self-hate, eating disorders etc, even appreciation that women are often disenfranchised in society so, at the risk of condescending, need more encouragement (confidence is a more male trait and self-criticism more female).

But just because I can distinguish real life issues and fantasy pastiche does not mean others can. Sophisticates may say "oh, it's sooo avant garde!" about Madonna's Sex coffee table book but to many, it's just exploitative softcore porn (I veered towards porn as only a few images were striking, even thought-provoking, hence art). In the same way, I can see the gloriously over-the-top parody in Sin City (e.g. "just give it to him good" said facing camera) but to many others, it's an ultra-violent tale gratuitously filled with scantily dressed women that hides its violence, especially towards women, under a veneer of surreal imagery. So who is to say such media images would not propagate violence towards women in the mind of someone less able to perceive the artistic style and tone?

So just because liberal intelligentsia see no harm in an image does not mean it is not harmful. You have to view it from the point of view of the more prevalant consumer. In the case of Mage Wars, it is the geek demographic who, if I am to propagate stereotypes, are blessed with mental intelligence but often lack "social intelligence". This all harks back to Kich's "We're too smart to be sexist" comment on page 1 of this thread. I think there's a danger that we mix mental intelligence with social intelligence and this confidence will unwittingly lure us into supporting views that, if seen through the eyes of "Joe or Jane Doe", the average person on the street, would be seen as inadvertently endorsing a sexist viewpoint.


(2) Imprinting Children - Generational Cultural Change

The other issue is linked to my "change is incremental" belief and is the effect images have on the young. Many Mage Wars afficionados will teach their children the game. Just as every generation is less racist than the last (my grandmother), it is important to promote more positive images of women seen in traditional male roles (and vice versa) so as to not close doors or gender stereotype.

This is the Nature vs. Nurture chestnut. Children are not born racist or sexist. It's imprinted on them from an early age by the environment, the parents who pass on their own value systems to them, be it a pink or a blue room or a Cooking Set vs. a Chemistry Set. It's therefore important to be enlightened around children so that, if this is propagated through the generations, the environment slowly changes to be less sexist over time until a tipping point when this becomes prevalent. Change is incremental - there are very few cultural forest fires.

As a non-parent, I have to be more aware of the concerns of parents, their worries of how imagery develop children during their formative years. This is very relevant to Mage Wars where there would be inter-generational pressure to play with the parent's latest obsession, and where a child, eager to please, may copy inadvertent sexism inherent in the activity by taking it at face value, lacking an adult sophisticated mindset. Parents can really mess up children without knowing it (I speak from experience).


Summary

And so, at the risk of being labelled a "Kharhaz" (that species renown for jumping over fences and switching camps at the drop of a hat, albeit on facile game mechanic issues), I have now been convinced (by friends and Trotsy's post above which resonated with me) that it would be best to err on the side of prudery and be labelled a killjoy, at least for my conscience so that I am not inadvertently indoctrinating children or propagating mainstream prejudices.

It would be great if the whole world could distinguish between fantasy and reality easily.
It would be great if children were not vulnerable to imprinting.
But sadly, this is not the case and I now feel ashamed I was provoked (after my initial fence-sitting) into playing to the gallery.

Geeks have a proud tradition of being ahead of society's cultural mores.
The first TV inter-racial kiss.
Gay and lesbian major characters.
Equal gender opportunity utopias.
We should be proud we're often more enlightened than the mainstream.
So it's a shame than we're not vocal in criticising a mainstream agenda.
Instead, we opt for the elitist non-confrontational cop-out that is...
"We geeks are far too smart or sophisticated to ever be sexist".


Addendum to ensure topic relevance:

What can Arcane Wonders do about this issue?
It would be asking much to suggest a jarring change of art style that risks alienating their core base.
They are primarily a business, not political, thus will succumb to business incentives and pressures.
After all, commissioning art pieces is expensive.

The suggestion of a Booster Pack of alternative art for old cards (sold at small profit) is a great idea.
After all, if this helps current evangelists convert non-players who otherwise find it offensive, great!

Going forward, I would suggest a move from Solus to Portfolio Marketing.
Instead of just 1 expansion, have 2 - identical except for ALL the artwork.
The Classic edition will have artwork in its Retro style for its current fans.
The Modern edition will have artwork in a Modernist style so not offensive.
The OCD collectors may even buy both sets just for the different art styles.
Then they track sales of these 2 editions before deciding their next action.
Create a "Diet Coke variant "of Mage Wars then let Supply & Demand rule.
Leverage the marketing adage: "threats are just opportunities in disguise".

Let's not ask for too much, for then you just get none!
After all, in life, the reality is: "change is incremental".
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:30:16 AM by DeckBuilder »
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

sIKE

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2014, 10:28:12 AM »
@Deckbuilder

While interesting this comes down on the Feminist we are victims point of view. Gloria Steinem, Naomi Wolf and Susan Faludi would have us believe that the differences between men and women are just a social constructs. While the Pagila side has a much (in my opinion) where women are empowered by things such as showing bra straps, dressing sexy (as long as they fully understand the impact of such dress), and such.

I believe the neo-feminism espoused by the OP is misguided and in some cases can be quite destructive.
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2014, 10:56:15 AM »
It's a good riposte, sIKE, but I don't think this issue should be belittled to a battle of wits.

Is Trotsy's impassioned plea that his/her children grow up in a more gender-equal world a "neo-feminist" view? I lose track here.
I thought Naomi Wolf (the only feminist I recognise, sorry for failng my "Feminist Lore" skill check) was thought of as neo-feminist?
I guess "neo-" is a prefix added to the cyclical view that is currently out-of-fashion?

Although Trotsky's last post resonated, I read it after my conversion (which happened in the early hours of 2014 GMT after too much Champagne and Glayva).

My change of position was based on (1) Mass Perception and (2) Imprinting arguments, neither of which were Trotsky's argument.

It's a bit like gun law. I know the second amendment is culturally enshrined in the USA (and not us Europeans).
It seems wrong to give irresponsible people a loaded gun.
And that is what sexually loaded images are, with kids and idiots around - a loaded double barrelled gun.

Luckily, everyone is entitled to their viewpoint and to express it (1st amendment, which I heartily agree with).
As long as this viewpoint does not harm others (I subscribe to John Stuart Mill's principle of freedom)

Hollywood does not insert Arwen and Tauriel romances into Tolkein to keep feminists happy.
They insert it because it sells more tickets, creates greater empathy with half the population.
(Even if Wood Elf - Hill Dwarf coupling just feels so wrong - I guess I'm not into fantasy racial integration.)
It also allows male geeks with wives or girlfriends (hopefully just 1) to bring her along and endure them reliving their childhood.
It's all about commercial sense.

That's why I suggested a Portfolio Marketing solution to this issue.
Because we are all different.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

webcatcher

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2014, 10:58:11 AM »
@ sIKE

I'm not convinced the sexy = empowered argument is applicable in this case because the sexy women involved aren't real. The priestess can't feel empowered because she looks good in her wedding night lingerie since there isn't a real priestess.  By the same token, the women in Mage Wars aren't victims of men dressing them up and then leering at them because the women involved are fictional. The only effect you'll get is the effect on the viewer. So the question we have to ask is "What impressions are likely to be created in the viewer by game art that depicts women as primarily (although not exclusively, as we've pointed out) scantily clad super models?" As Deckbuilder correctly pointed out, this creates the impression among many viewers that A) game nerds like to depict women as sex objects, and (especially among the young) B) it is okay for me to view women largely as sex objects. In my opinion, these impressions are both to be avoided.

Shad0w

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2014, 11:40:51 AM »
@DeckBuilder

No matter how tempting I decline to take the bait.

P.S. Thank you all for staying on topic and act civil as we review this issue.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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sIKE

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2014, 09:19:36 PM »
@Deckbuilder

I changed tack here on my last post so as to make it known that I am not just trolling here, but to debate. My earlier points in the thread were basically stating what one finds insulting for others it doesn't and for those other changing would be insulting. The argument can not have a winners just losers if they make the change team A will be happy and team B will be displeased otoh if team B wins then team A will be displeased.

@Webcatcher
So as I stated earlier, I am guessing the Oracles dressed more like nuns (in Habits) than the Priestess depicted in Mage Wars. My understanding of Greek history was that women of that age were mightily empowered  and dressed to appeal to a mans eye. Hope there is nothing wrong with that kind of thought.


Current historical thoughts on how Helen of Troy Appeared
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Aylin

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2014, 02:15:32 AM »
@Deckbuilder

Are two sets actually necessary? The Forcemaster's art is the best of the released female mages thus far, the problems really only arising upon close scrutiny of the art from that set coupled with a decent knowledge of stereotypically feminine clothing, yet as far as I know it sold pretty well. I and the three other people I know with sets in my area all purchased that expansion as soon as possible, and from reading the forums it seems most people have a copy of it as well. Do you have more information on how well it sold compared to the other sets? My information on that is pretty limited (detailed above), so I think knowing that would be immensely helpful. My supposition is that most people won't notice or care if the female artwork is more like the Forcemaster's (leaving behind the heels and corset of course) than the Druid's.

Since you expressed curiosity, neofeminists believe that women are empowered by conventionally feminine attributes. For example, the idea that wearing high-heeled shoes can be empowering if the woman in question wants to wear them.

However, the term neofeminist has also been used by non-feminists to refer to any type of feminism that arose after First-Wave Feminism (suffragettes) or Second-Wave Feminism (which fought for things like reproductive rights),  and it's likely that's how sIKE used the term.

@sIKE

The issue is about more than simply being insulted. It's about treating half of the population as sex objects and the social ramifications of that.

Additionally, the "empowerment of women in Greek society" varied from city-state to city-state. In Athens women had few rights; no owning of property, treated essentially as property in terms of marriage (owned first by the father, then by the husband), few were ever taught to read or write, etc. Women in Sparta on the other hand could divorce their husbands, inherit wealth, etc. However, they were still treated essentially as baby-factories. Rights of the Helot women in Sparta were practically non-existent as well. For the most part, only land-owning males in the ancient Greek city-states had any real power or rights, so it's pretty hard to claim that Greek women were empowered. Perhaps your best bet to claim that would be Sparta, but even then it's a stretch because of their slaves.

Trotsky

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2014, 03:49:45 AM »
I am grateful that AW is listening and will at least consider the proposal. I am if anything a realist and my original post did not call for AW to ‘change’ any art, only that some ‘alternatives’ become available. The discussion here has grown to encompass the wider issues of the objectification of women in society. I do not believe that AW intentionally sought to objectify women in Mage wars and therefore I have purchased all the products so far and will continue to do so. This is not true of all the media I consume, if I believe there is intent then I will not view such media, here in the UK there are several newspapers that fall into this camp.

I do find the portrayal of women in certain media as insidious and a throwback to societal norms that are archaic. I am not a prude and appreciate the human form when placed in context, in art that does not seek to objectify women or the beauty of my partner. I mention this for I am not the only one within my small gaming group who thinks so –as I stated before I have had some refusals to play Mage Wars based on the artwork – most notably the priestess. I find the in-game artwork less egregious (although my wife has stated that some of the angels are ridiculous!) as they have less focus than the mage characters.

Anyway last post from me on this thread – it is over to AW to consider their response (if any…)