Arcane Wonders Forum

According to the design of both Paladin and Siren, she could have a main school (war?, mind?) and a secondary school (up to level x, or restricted to a spell type). This secondary could be any element (as a thematic asian focus).


Where is this image from?

Jokthari with friend has been one of my favorite builds since Conquest of Kimanjaro. I played a lot with it, and I learnt some clues in the process:

- I tried several partners and the one I liked most was Cervere. It is fast and elusive and that helps a lot. It is less resilient than others, so you have to heal or protect her, and even then she will probably fall. Then, a bear can happily take her place...

- To heal, my favorite is renewing spring. It works great with Cervere (fast and elusive), and with the mage also.

- There are mages against which this build simply does not work. Adding a Lair and 6 thunderift gives you a valuable flexibility for only 10 SP.

- Felella can help sometimes, though I am not sure of her. The action to summon the faerie slows your attack and I would only use her against the right mages (medium to highly aggressive).

- You may find your opponent dissolving two of your ranged weapons. I usually wear 3 ranged weapons. Maybe your play group don´t realize yet, but when they play 2-3 games against your jokthari, they will begin dissolving. One of the weak spots of this mage is: you lose the ranged weapon, you lose half your power.

- You should try Hunting spear. Then, decide what you want. But try. It is not only good, it is superfun to use, running and shooting all the way. It does not work against some mages, but it is also good in the dissolve game.  Of course, it works best with battleforge. The play is beautiful: deploy HS from the BF, move and attack, delivering the spear to your book, and leave your rival wondering if he should get a dissolve or not for next turn. Then, on the next turn, play mind games with him and take a Hurl rock or a bow, or the spear again...

Hope it all gives you fun. Jokthari can be quite a fun mage.

Quote from: DaveW on October 02, 2017, 04:39:46 PM
Can you put a Barracks on A3 from B4?

No. Typing error. It is A4.

Corrected.

Thanks!

Quote from: RomeoXero on September 26, 2017, 09:47:17 AM
I hate to be a wet blanket for ya brother, but Barracks is Epic. You cannot rebuild it because you can only have one copy in the book at any time. Might need to rethink that part of the plan

You are definitely right! My fault.

I will edit the original post to erase the wrong reference.

Thank you!!!

Hello all.

As the pool grows for every mage, and strategies are diversifying, I am lately feeling the need to be ready for different playstyles when planning battles. Not only that you might find different mages once you reach the field, but there are mages like paladin that can play absolutely different depending on the player or even the situation.

In that scenario, I am focusing more on building "moves" than building books: designing different ways to face this or that startegy, and then adding the cards needed on all of them to the book (if possible). This usually means  adding more cards to all the books and less out of school cards, to save costs. This drawbak is not so hard as before, as the pool increase also produces alternative sollutions to the different mages.

As an example, I am lately playing an Anvil Throne Warlord where I discarded all the nullifys, jinx, etc and all-but-one dispel, to save arcane extra costs, and trying to use instead harshforge monolith/harshforge plate/remove curse as alternatives. I lose a lot of good cards, but eventually I am ready to develop diferent tactical options depending on the circumstances.

This is working fine for now, and I wanted to share two different moves designed for the ATW so that you can advice on enhancement or add your opinion if you please.

Move 1: Build and hostigate.
Designed to face a defensive mage, like a Holy temple build or a control necromancer.

T1: 19 mana
Move to B4.
Action: Construction yard on C4, (-7 mana).
QC: Battleforge on B4 (- 8 mana).
remains: 4

T2: 13 mana, BF: 1, CY: 1.
Wispwillow amulet from the forge (-3)
QC: Barracks on A4 (-12)
Double move to B2.
remains: 0 mana, 0 BF, 0 CY.

T3: 10 mana, BF: 1, CY: 1. BCK: 2.
Ivarium longbow from the forge (-8)
QC: Garrison post on B2 (-4)
A: Shoot. (One option it to attack the mage, I prefer to hostigate the mana base: clerics, cristals...)
remains: 0 mana, 0 BF, 0 CY, 2 BCK.

T4: 10 mana, BF: 1, CY: 1. BCK: 5.
General signet ring from the forge (-3)
Anvil Throne Crossbowman from the garrison post (-10).
QC: Rouse the beast on ATC (-3)
A: Shoot.
remains: 0 mana, 0 BF, 1 CY, 0 BCK.

So turn 4 you will have thrown 11 dice with piercing to the mana base of your rival, while your own base has grown properly.  Of course, your rival will defend, but the target is to earn a swift leverage on these turns and then maybe concentrate on strengthen your own fortress. Destroying a cleric, a flower or an idol can be quite an asset at the first turns.

Move 2: Build and defend.
The same book can develop a different strategy against an offensive rival. Turn 1 is the same,  allowing to change the tactics depending on the movements of the opponent (if, for example, he makes a double move on turn 1 towards you).

T1: 19 mana
Move to B4.
Action: Construction yard on C4, (-7 mana)
QC: Battleforge on B4 (- 8 mana)
remains: 4

T2: 13 mana, BF: 1, CY: 1.
Meditation amulet + rune of reforging from the BF (-5)
A: Meditate (+3)
QC: Barracks on A4 (-12)
remains: 1 mana, 0 BF, 0 CY.

T3: 10 mana, BF: 1, CY: 1. BCK: 2.
General signet ring from the BF (-3)
Temple Sentry from the Barracks (-4).
A: Meditate (+3).
QC: Steadfast boots (-5).
remains: 4 mana, 0 BF, 1 CY, 0 BCK.

T4: 13 mana, BF: 1, CY: 2. BCK: 2.
Harshforge plate + Rune of defense from the BF (-9).
Knight of the Red Helm from Barracks (-7).
A: Meditate. (+3)
QC: Rouse the beast on Knight of the Red Helm (-2), [Edited to correct my mistake regarding rebuiding barracks]

remains: 1 mana, 0 BF, 2 CY, 0 BCK.

At the end of turn 4 you have protected yourself and the barracks (the two main targets your opponent could attack) fairly well, and your mana advantage would be noted. If the aggresors focus on you, you can cast defense bracers with rune on turn 5, and your soldiers can move to help. If BF has been destroyed, you can rebuild (two copies are good enough on a warlord build).

Of course, the actions of your rival could change your needs from one turn to the other, but if you can resolve the threats he displays, with the tools in these moves, you may have achieved quite a good position.

Feedback appreciated, I think these moves have still space for enhancement...

Nice thread!

My favorite at the moment is Siren. New, highly thematic, quite flexible and so attractive...

My best pick is still for wizard. He is still so comfortable! he is quite good at mana (channel 10 and gate), which is something you enjoy each and every turn. He holds all the good tricks you need to avoid stagnation. He got not-the-best-but-still-a-good variety of creatures, from the gremlin to the gorgon. And voltari shield is a so comfortable skill... I feel very confortable playing with him.

Not to play against... I have no pick. Each mage has his point, and I enjoyed to some extent every game to this day. But sometimes I felt frustrated against necro.

I have included Sunfire in my siren book a few weeks ago, but I could not try it yet. Today will be my first try. I will tell.

What I like from this is: being the siren a fair flexible mage, this move does not define your strategy too much, and you can act from there according to your best interest against this or that move from your oponent.

I mean, if you see a jokthari, and you begin with sunfire+crystal, you gain time to see if he plays lair or not, so decide if you play turn 2 echo or turn 3 elemental...

As pointed above by arkdeniz (but for his necro), another option for siren could be Sunfire+Idol+shallow sea... that will force anyone but a necro to attack your siren. But...

Did you consider using ballista?

My pals and I we have been playing it lately, usually deploying it on turn 2, to very very good results.

Treasure discussion! Learning so much from your points of view, specially the different ones...

To avoid being misunderstood: I don´t think Wounded prey is a bad ability. It adds something, but it does only sometimes, and you cannot rely on it. That´s why I think it is not very good either.

I mean: i don´t like the idea of playing swarm everytime just because they benefit from wounded prey. You can find it unusable too many times.

I agree that simply modifying your rival´s play is an advantage, but nowadays many mages pay little for that, either with nonliving creatures, or small ones or whatever. I think this will go worse as long as the pool of creatures grows. Well, it´s an asset, but I think it´s not a huge one.

I do think something good of WP: in cases when, for whatever reason, your rival comes with a big living buddy, wou have a big asset for free. I mean: when creating the book, you may find yourself searching for reinforcments agains this or that particular build (metachoices). Well, against a very efficient strategy (Cervere, Grizzly, Alendell...) you have a very good tool in your very mage card. And you can find yourself against a rival that simply didnot think of an alternative.

In that case WP may shine, but unreliability puts her behind many other abilities, in my opinion.

That doesn´t mean I think Jokthari is a crap. For example, I consider +1 ranged far better than +1 melee, mainly because it is much more difficult to escape from.

I have a tendency to pop up spawnpoints the soonest possible, but reading this I can see the advantage of waiting to see what happens.

This concept could work in any holy build, as the temple seems so much vulnerable now to ballista and others...

Thanks for sharing!

Probably this post can help us knowing which consensus really exists.

up to now, there are some coincidences.

I don´t think it is OP, but Paladin is a very good mage. I think the best new addition after necro.

He has access to the best cards in war school (ballista, ballad of courage, harshforge plate...). He summons more than decent creatures (I always thought holy creatures where the best medium size buddies) and has both a very good attack ability (challenge) and a quite decent long term one (auras).

He can go on attacking anyone because he can heal, and that is a good point in a damage race. He hits fast and hard with ballad of courage etc, and has access to quite a good range of equipment (sword is awesome, and I can´t decide which armor is best).

Has a good chance against one of the best mages nowadays (necro). And he can build a versatile book.

But: The spawnpoint is not great I think and he somehow needs it, and versatility always comes with a flaw: jack of all trades, master of none. He almost masters rush attack, but he lacks the +1 dice on other mages... he can hold a position while his ballista and royal archer shoot the enemy, but he lacks himself the arguments to shoot (no good inschool ranged spells, not likely to be a better archer than priest).

I personally think he is one of the 5 best mages, but if Paladin is overpowered, what do we say about Forcemaster?

I would say that one of the things I like more in MW is that any mage can definitely beat any other given the chance.

But it´s a nice exercise to share this kind of lists... sure we will not agree an absolute one, but some mages are at the top in every mind...

My list would be:

1.- Necro, Wizard, Forcemaster.
2.- Druid, Paladin, Arraxian, Straywood, Priestess.
3.- Adramelech, Siren, Jokthari, Anvil Throne
4.- Priest and Bloodwave.

Druid is often ranked tier 1 but I find the problem with fire is too big.

Since ballista is out, I am tempted to place Anvil Throne as 2.5 or something... 2 and 3 seem to have tight differences.

Hello. I have been playing Jokhtari a few times these last months. As I admit to value mobility in all games, the swift forest amazon attracted me from the very beginning. I found more or less the same problems others have metioned: channels 9, wounded prey is not likely to be used very often, as it depends on the rival, and fast is not so impressive on the arena as it seemed.

But after trying quite different approaches, I changed mi first impression on her, even when:

- Let´s admit wounded prey is not very good. Don´t count on it, so avoid modifying the build according to the ability. Sometimes you will find it quite usefull, when you have to face that grizzly with your 3 falcons.

- Let´s admit fast is not teleport. The first time you see her, you imagine an arrow throwing whirwind running throuh the field. Though that would be awesome, most times it is not even neccesary, and of course it is usually not possible. But fast is a very good ability in two particular moments: the first turn (as it allows to position your mage in a very good place to begin), and when you need to go away from combat. So, fast can be used to attack at the beginning, and as the deck´s main defense (combined with elusive).

I find Jokthari, as many other mages, can be used in different ways:

attack with arrow support: swarm (lair+falcons)
attack with arrow support: heavy hitters (like cervere or a grizzly).
guerrilla with a small banking; with felella, lair and/or flowers.
others (awaiting feedback)

Which is best? depends completely on the mage you are facing. Against necro, I would probably recomment falcon swarm, using fast to place a lair near him and then support the aviary with your arrows. Against warlord I would probably do a guerrilla tactic, attacking the outposts to disrupt his banking from afar with the support of some creature, while felella and a flower give you some advantage in mana and/or actions. Against an adramelech warlock I would try heavy hitter like cervere for a fast attack, as the swarm would be easy to clear with some fire area spells she will probably have in the book.

So what will be the build you will include in your book? I say all of them. If you are decided to wear lair (and it seems like a good idea to do it), the swarm will only cost you 4-5 SPs to be included. Sure you will not be wearing all the Rajah´s fury (though you can manage to include 1-2), but you will be shooting to support the falcons (and the rival mage cannot easily escape from a fast swarm of flyers and your angry shooting aztec beauty). If you already use a lot of enchantments (which seems to be logical in nature school), you can add felella as a mana/action advantage manager for only 3 SPs. Rather than matching the book to a particular build, focus in the moves the mage is going to perform against one or the other, and include the tools to perform those moves. This means you will have to dismiss maybe one teleport or one purge magic, but it´s worth as the versatility is one of the strenghts of the jokthari, and definitely makes the mage more interesting and funny.

Other tips:

- You know your meta, but I recommend to wear a minimmun of 4 bows. I found people with 3 copies of dissolve (and smart enough to use them with every ranged weapon I played). But I rarely find people with 4 copies (out of the siren or druid watermasters). And you are nothing without a bow. I use 2 ivarium, 1 spear and 1 kajarah. Kajarah looks pretty good but it´s too cheap to dispel. The spear, I have not used yet.

- With a bow, gloves and hawkeye you should destroy a crystal/priest/monk/flower in one shot. You can achieve this easily on turn 2 or 3, and you are barely risking yorself (you are at range 2). This is the definition of guerrilla… it may seem a minor nuisance, but against a holy mage, able to heal the initial damage you can do to them, it may be a good idea to punish his/her mana generators instead, while building a killing powerhouse out of your favorite black forest kitty…

- You can put in some spells that work under certain circumstances (mainly incantations or enchantments), but creatures are too expensive to do that: do not pay SPs for animals you are not going to use. 5 falcons, Cervere, a grizzly and Slavorg can each give you a game. Rajah will not give you a game. A second grizzly probably will stay in the book most times (unless you plan to play two grizzlies in turns 2 and 3, but then I would rather use a straywood beastmaster…).

- Take 3-4 lesser teleport: if you are in one of the centered squares and have a lesser teleport, you can shoot anywhere in the field.

- if a significant threat approaches, run! if you manage to be elusive you can go far far away and use the turn to do some of the things you usually cannot, due to lack of actions (like dispelling two curses or healing yourself). And you will be ready to shoot your foe next turn (with the cunning use of a lesser teleport if you don´t have the initiative)

I definitely love to play jokthari. To me she is not the best winning mage (like many others, she always seems to be 1 mana away from greatness), but she is so versatile and mobile that to me she is the most entertaining.

Good luck!

I see two main advantage for warlock: the fire attacks in permanents (creatures and equipment), and the unmatched ability to kill the treebond at the beginning of the game.

Sure, killing the tree may be more expensive than the tree itself at first glance, but I use to play druid and you don´t see it that way from the green side.