Blue Gremlin and Teleport

[Shad0w]

I hope to have something within the next few weeks. All depends on how work goes I am on nights till Gencon week

[ringkichard]

Rules-as-Intended trumps Rules-as-Written, but the first and best guide to Intent is Writing. In the absence of that, if we agree what's intended here, (and it seems like we do) we can play that way temporarily, even if the official written rules are ambiguous or buggy for a little while.

Do we have a consensus on intent? It seems to me that Gremlin can walk through walls and ignore hindering creatures, but not break restraining conjurations or stuck tokens. Gremlin is also affected by cripple and stumble. Is that all the interactions we need to cover for the time being until we get a rules cleanup?

Basically, de-facto, if its exterior to the goblin, ignore it, but if it's targeted or attached, the Goblin isn't moving.

[Sailor Vulcan]

ringkichard, I hope you're right. If BG can move through walls and ignore hindering creatures, then the only effective way for my current new build to deal with them is restraining them.

I'm relatively new to the game, so I can't say this for certain, but I think that having such a low mana cost creature that can always move up to two zones every single action phase no matter what under any conditions is a bit OP, especially when you add the defense and the armor. If people interpret Blue Gremlin that way, then I imagine that maybe just 3 of them are enough to "swarm"! And he only costs 7 mana. I completely agree that the intended meaning is more important than the literal meaning.

I hope this gets resolved soon!

[baronzaltor]

I'm relatively new to the game, so I can't say this for certain, but I think that having such a low mana cost creature that can always move up to two zones every single action phase no matter what under any conditions is a bit OP,

Except that he cant always move up to two zones every single action phase no matter what under any condition.

It has to be a round that the mage paid a mana to activate it.. and if yorue running 4, thats 4 mana you have to free up every turn to accomplish..
And thats saying there isnt a supression orb on the table (making him pay another mana per move action..so 2 more mana per Gremlin per sprint)
 
or assuming that the Gremlin didnt get enfeebled, making him slow... which essentially means he can pay 1 mana to not be slow every round.

or assuming he has a clear path to run... he can teleport through walls, but if he enters a zone with a Hellfire Trap, Teleport Trap, Mangler Caltrops, Spike Pit, Poison Gas Cloud, and so on he still triggers those things when he enters the zone, before he leaves it.

They also wont last long with Chains of Agony hitting them for 2 damage everytime they rush.

Also, he is still subject to Guards when he gets where hes going.

Mordoks Obelsk will make it difficult to pay for their speed-a-port ability to, when you have to pay an upkeep just to keep it on the table and another mana to trigger it.

So, its not exactly a free ride and theres obstacles out there that can still hamper them.

[Wiz-Pig]

@sIke and Tacullu64

But as stated he doesn't teleport as far as he could move, instead each move action counts as a teleport meaning he teleports one zone (which counts as him entering that zone possibly triggering traps and such), then if he has another move action he can use that to teleport another zone. The problem as currently written is 1. he does not teleport before he moves 2. if he enters a square with creatures in it on his first move-teleport he is hindered and not able to take a second move action to teleport.

If the intent is as sIke has stated it he would be significantly more powerful in being able to avoid traps, though nothing that has been said by Shadow or other persons of authority so far has made it clear that their intention goes that far.

Tacullu64: To address you more specific, it is not a matter of which set of rules takes precedence. In this case teleport clearly takes precedence over hinderance as teleport specifically references hinderance. The issue is the wording that implies that the Blue Germlin only teleports as part of each move action. Since he is not teleporting continuously through the entire distance the only things he bypasses due to teleport are those things that are in between zone (i.e. walls).

[Wiz-Pig]

I pulled this comment from the Reliable Temple Build thread to comment on it here, since the Author is active in this thread and it seemed inappropriate to continue the discussion there with it being speculative and tangential.

Now, I have no idea what caused this change in wording, so I won't pretend that I know the intent of the rules here. It's weird that teleporting is mentioned, but not Blue Gremlin specifically. I can't tell if Arcanus was just being coy, or if he was referring to a card that existed during playtesting but hadn't (and hasn't) yet been to the printer, or if he was just future proofing.

It's quite late at night, but if no one has started a rules forum thread about this tomorrow, I'll do so myself.

I'm puzzled by this as well. The only conclusion I can come to is that there will be cards in the future that either specifically effect hindered creatures (does a creature continue to count as hindered until upkeep?) or somehow give you the ability to teleport a creature in the middle of it's move actions (maybe an enchantment that lets you teleport 1 space when revealed??). Otherwise I can't see any situation in which this distinction would be necessary. If you move once, then cast teleport on yourself obviously you can't move again, similarly if a creature activates you won't have an opportunity to cast teleport on it until after it completes its action phase. The only current exception is Divine Intervention, but I wouldn't see that as an abuse of the card.

[sIKE]

If the intent is as sIke has stated it he would be significantly more powerful in being able to avoid traps,

When I was discussing this, I did say poof from one zone poof into another zone. Rules about entering a zone would still apply here. Traps would still apply. The only thing I would want to have fleshed out is the Stuck trait....

[Wiz-Pig]

If the intent is as sIke has stated it he would be significantly more powerful in being able to avoid traps,

When I was discussing this, I did say poof from one zone poof into another zone. Rules about entering a zone would still apply here. Traps would still apply. The only thing I would want to have fleshed out is the Stuck trait....

My mistake. Serves me right for trying to respond to two people at the same time.

[Tacullu64]

@sIke and Tacullu64


Tacullu64: Since he is not teleporting continuously through the entire distance the only things he bypasses due to teleport are those things that are in between zone (i.e. walls).

I'm not sure why you draw this conclusion (or maybe I'm just not understanding your point). The wording states that teleporting bypasses walls, creatures, and objects along the entire route. The entire route would include the starting zone, the ending zone, and all zones in between. Therefore, walls, creatures, or objects in any of those zones would be bypassed. At least that's the way I interpret it.

[sIKE]

@Tacullu64,

That is the distinction that I am trying to clarify. Each move action is a teleport action. When he teleports into the next zone that move action is completed and any effects from entering that zone would take effect.

For example if he had Eagle Wings (why? just an example) and if he entered a zone that was within two zones of Gravikor he would loose the Flying trait. If there were a trap their that only affected non-flyers we would then activate that trap. Lets say Teleport Trap, he then could be teleported up to two zones away from Gravikor and then regain the Flying trait. He then could take his next move action and teleport into another zone of his choice.

If the BG were hit with the Slow trait, he could still teleport two zone, just not have the ability to take a Quick Action afterwards. If he were hit with two Slow Traits (I assume since Fast stacks, Slow would too) he would only be able to Teleport into one zone).

 

[Wiz-Pig]

Exactly. Imagine that he is teleporting twice and each time only moving a single zone, then also add to that the fact that he must be able to declare a move action in order to teleport, and you'll understand the situation.

It has been ruled that the intention is for Blue Gremlin to ignore hinderance while he is moving in this way, but for now we are just taking it on fiat, as there isn't a specific parsing of the rules to support this. This does not imply that he can ignore any of the other consequences of entering the zones he teleports into, although the language of the Errata or altered rules may result in some additional considerations. We will have to wait and see.

Hopefully they will be stated in such a way as to just assert the intention here, or carve out a special status for creatures using move actions to teleport, because otherwise I have a feeling there will be more issues with this little guy coming down the line. Or possibly repercussions to other rules in the game.

[Tacullu64]

He should definitely set off traps and other triggers for moving into zones because he arrives in the zones. He just shouldn't be hindered by opposing creatures since he bypasses them ( I think I would prefer the term ignores).

[LokiDFC]

So... any official ruling on this, Shad0w?

during a teleport move action the gremlin: 

WILL set off traps  (?)
WILL take a passage attack from a wall with the trait  (?)
WILL be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall)  (?)
CANNOT move out of a conjuration of effect that Restrains him  (?)
WILL be hindered  (?)

The last two look as if they're the most open to rule interpretation... but are the first three correct?

[sdougla2]

Some of those have clear answers already, but others do not.

WILL set off traps (?): Yes
WILL take a passage attack from a wall with the trait (?): No
WILL be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall) (?): Yes

Those are all straightforward to answer based on the rules.

It seems that the intended answers to the last 2 are that Restrain prevents a Blue Gremlin from taking any move actions at all, and that the Blue Gremlin is effectively not hindered when Teleporting, but those are the questions that are up for debate.

[sIKE]

Been hoping for Arcanus to weigh in on this one, so far no ruling.