Paladin vs Siren Spoilers

[Laddinfance]

New spoiler up today, just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

>>HERE<<

[iNano78]

These guys have peaked my interest.  And I already have a few questions in my mind.

If a target isn't Bleeding to begin with, and a Deptonne Berserker attacks and causes a Bleed as part of the "apply damage and effects" step, does its attack immediately gain Doublestrike that is applicable to this attack (e.g. does it attack again during the "additional strikes" step)?  Or would it have needed the Doublestrike trait at the beginning of the initial attack (e.g. the "declare attack" step) in order to make an additional attack with this attack action?

Deptonne Shaman has some weird wording.  Why isn't he worded like this:
"The first time each round that a Deptonne in the Shaman's zone melee attacks a creature with the Bleed condition, its attack gains the Vampiric trait."  Or something similar. 
For one, "this zone" isn't really defined, but I assume it means "the Deptonne Shaman's zone" and there wasn't enough room on the card. But is there a reason it needs to say "... it's first attack each round, its attack gains the Vampiric trait for that attack."?  Seems like a lot of redundant occurances of the word "attack".  Perhaps it's because a Deptonne might have more than one possible (quick) Melee attack, and if it were to somehow be able to use each of its melee attacks (e.g. through Battle Fury or similar), then it might be ambiguous if it could have a "first attack each round" with each of its melee attacks, or something like that.  But I thought the rules were already pretty explicit that Vampirism only works for the first attack of an attack action anyway (including Double/Triplestrike and Battle Fury).  Perhaps we're getting a new ability (either on a creature or through an incantation/enchantment) that otherwise might allow multiple separate attack actions that could each benefit from conditions like Vampirism or Melee/Bloodthirsty +X enhancements, etc?

[Laddinfance]

If a target isn't Bleeding to begin with, and a Deptonne Berserker attacks and causes a Bleed as part of the "apply damage and effects" step, does its attack immediately gain Doublestrike that is applicable to this attack (e.g. does it attack again during the "additional strikes" step)?  Or would it have needed the Doublestrike trait at the beginning of the initial attack (e.g. the "declare attack" step) in order to make an additional attack with this attack action?

The Additional Strikes Step is after Damage and Effects, so if you caused them to bleed then you'd get your second attack as you'd have Doublestrike when you went to the Additional Strikes Step.

Deptonne Shaman has some weird wording.  Why isn't he worded like this:
"The first time each round that a Deptonne in the Shaman's zone melee attacks a creature with the Bleed condition, its attack gains the Vampiric trait."  Or something similar. 
For one, "this zone" isn't really defined, but I assume it means "the Deptonne Shaman's zone" and there wasn't enough room on the card. But is there a reason it needs to say "... it's first attack each round, its attack gains the Vampiric trait for that attack."?  Seems like a lot of redundant occurances of the word "attack".  Perhaps it's because a Deptonne might have more than one possible (quick) Melee attack, and if it were to somehow be able to use each of its melee attacks (e.g. through Battle Fury or similar), then it might be ambiguous if it could have a "first attack each round" with each of its melee attacks, or something like that.  But I thought the rules were already pretty explicit that Vampirism only works for the first attack of an attack action anyway (including Double/Triplestrike and Battle Fury).  Perhaps we're getting a new ability (either on a creature or through an incantation/enchantment) that otherwise might allow multiple separate attack actions that could each benefit from conditions like Vampirism or Melee/Bloodthirsty +X enhancements, etc?

The Bloodshaman was difficult to word. The issue was that simpler wordings ended with the possible implication that it only affected the first Deptonne to qualify each round. In reality it effects each Deptonne in that zone, but only once per Deptonne. And yes, "this zone" is the Bloodshaman's zone.

[Halewijn]

I really like all three, but I'm suprised to see that they have no weakness on land. They have better legs than I expected.

[silverclawgrizzly]

They really are jaw-some! Hehehehehe sorry I had to.

[iNano78]

The Additional Strikes Step is after Damage and Effects, so if you caused them to bleed then you'd get your second attack as you'd have Doublestrike when you went to the Additional Strikes Step.

That's interesting.  That implies we've (I've) been playing [mwcard=FWQ04]Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard] wrong.  Can I wait and resolve Galvitar's first attack before choosing whether it's a Doublestrike or a Sweeping attack with its full-action "Spinning Slash"?  I've always assumed you had to choose during the "declare attack" step, and it's often a tough choice because generally you only want to Sweep if you are sure the first hit is going to kill the first target.  If you get to choose later, then that's a pretty big advantage compared to declaring early, as you get to see if you need to use that second attack on the first target who managed to survive despite the odds, and/or who was miraculously killed by the first of what you assumed would require a doublestrike which was then wasted because you didn't choose "Sweeping."

[Laddinfance]

Galvitar is different. It's not gaining Doublestrike or Sweeping during the Damage and Effects step, you're picking which you're using when you make the attack. So, you've been playing Galvitar correctly.

[iNano78]

Galvitar is different. It's not gaining Doublestrike or Sweeping during the Damage and Effects step, you're picking which you're using when you make the attack. So, you've been playing Galvitar correctly.

I see what you're saying, but it's kind of weird.

With the Deptonne Berserker, I don't have a choice, so I make an attack.  The target gets a Bleed token during the "damage & effects" step, then instantaneously a keyword gets added to his attack, so when he reaches the "additional strikes" step, he makes a second attack... because he still doesn't have a choice (e.g. it's part of his only attack).

With Galvitar, I have 2 choices to make.  First, I choose Galvitar's full-action attack.  Then, because I have a choice from the beginning, I must choose which keyword that attack has, and I'm locked into that choice throughout the attack (e.g. can't change my mind after the "damage & effects" step).

What if Galvitar's keyword (or a similar attack with choice of "Doublestrike OR Sweeping") depended on a requirement, like the target having a Bleed token?  Then I'd have no choice (regular strike) until the "damage & effects" step, then a Bleed gets handed out and suddenly it gains a choice of keywords: either Doublestrike or Sweeping.  Since I didn't make the choice during the "declare attack" step, am I out of luck and stuck with a basic single attack?  Or since it just got activated, do I get to choose on the spot?  This would imply that it's advantageous to have an ability that only becomes active midway through an attack than the same ability that you had the whole time...

Another weird case would be an Enchantment like Debilitate but that turns off/on traits like Doublestrike or Sweeping.  If I lost and then gained Doublestrike or Sweeping midway through an attack through revealing and/or removing of Enchantments, then I might be able to gain the choice and switch to a Sweeping vs Doublstrike midway through the attack, compared to having to choose earlier in the attack and sticking with the decision.

As you can see, it gets weird if there's a double standard between abilities that become active "just in time to trigger" vs ones that you had the whole time but had to choose between way back in the "declare attack" step.
(Of course, for creatures and equipment with more than one different attack, I agree you choose which attack during the "declare attack" step; but Galvitar (and a few others) have an attack with a choice of traits for that attack, which is weird that the choice has to be made during "declare attack" when possible, but the traits (and potentially the choice) might change if the traits have some sort of delayed application.

[Laddinfance]

I can see where that can be confusing. I spend a lot of my time watching these exact sort of timing issues. It's something I try to check every time we have a new card.

[EricTheGreat12]

This is really exciting  !!!

One thing I has to ask though is if these creatures will be unique (only 1 in the set) or are they common creatures (4 of each in the set) ? Same would be asked for the Knight of the Red Helm

[Kaarin]

  But I thought the rules were already pretty explicit that Vampirism only works for the first attack of an attack action anyway (including Double/Triplestrike and Battle Fury).  Perhaps we're getting a new ability (either on a creature or through an incantation/enchantment) that otherwise might allow multiple separate attack actions that could each benefit from conditions like Vampirism or Melee/Bloodthirsty +X enhancements, etc?

Counterstrikes.

[Laddinfance]

This is really exciting  !!!

One thing I has to ask though is if these creatures will be unique (only 1 in the set) or are they common creatures (4 of each in the set) ? Same would be asked for the Knight of the Red Helm

No these are all at max copies (so 6 for level 1's and 4 for level 2 and higher). If something is Legendary or Unique you get fewer copies of that card.

[iNano78]

  But I thought the rules were already pretty explicit that Vampirism only works for the first attack of an attack action anyway (including Double/Triplestrike and Battle Fury).  Perhaps we're getting a new ability (either on a creature or through an incantation/enchantment) that otherwise might allow multiple separate attack actions that could each benefit from conditions like Vampirism or Melee/Bloodthirsty +X enhancements, etc?

Counterstrikes.

Of course!  Thanks.  Nothing to see here.   
(Forgot that Counterstrikes would generally get those traits multiple times as long as you can keep putting Guard markers on your creature or reveal Retaliate or whatever).

[Coshade]

finally proper creatures for Sharkbait to use! 

Maybe we can name them Bruce, Anchor and Chum

[Kaarin]

Water Wizards are definitely happy.