Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone

[V10lentray]

Also, I just realized that it might not be such an unusual situation because the Caltrops attack friendly creatures as well as enemy, so the two spells could be controlled by different players if the creature in question was controlled by the controller of the Caltrops.

But the teleport trap would not trigger unless an enemy creature entered, so as the controller of the teleport trap, you would insist that the Caltrops trigger first before you beam the creature to the other side of the arena. And since the caltrops is already face up, you trigger that first, then revel the teleport trap. Both effects have to happen, so as the controller of the teleport trap, you make certain they take the damage for the caltrops first. that way there are no questions in the matter.

[Wildhorn]

Also, I just realized that it might not be such an unusual situation because the Caltrops attack friendly creatures as well as enemy, so the two spells could be controlled by different players if the creature in question was controlled by the controller of the Caltrops.

But the teleport trap would not trigger unless an enemy creature entered, so as the controller of the teleport trap, you would insist that the Caltrops trigger first before you beam the creature to the other side of the arena. And since the caltrops is already face up, you trigger that first, then revel the teleport trap. Both effects have to happen, so as the controller of the teleport trap, you make certain they take the damage for the caltrops first. that way there are no questions in the matter.

But maybe you do not want Caltrop damage that creature because you need that creature alive to Vampirism onto it to make one of your creature stay alive?

[Zuberi]

But the teleport trap would not trigger unless an enemy creature entered, so as the controller of the teleport trap, you would insist that the Caltrops trigger first before you beam the creature to the other side of the arena. And since the caltrops is already face up, you trigger that first, then revel the teleport trap. Both effects have to happen, so as the controller of the teleport trap, you make certain they take the damage for the caltrops first. that way there are no questions in the matter.

You move your creature into a zone with your caltrops and an enemy face down enchant. You have initiative. You ask them if they need to reveal anything, then they must reveal the teleport trap before you decide to apply the caltrop damage. It is a feasible scenario.

[Shad0w]

If the creature is friendly and you control the [mwcard=MW1E38] Teleport Trap[/mwcard] you do not get a trigger on Teleport Trap to save it from the damage. Also on that note before I see it asked. If you force reveal Teleport Trap it would have no effect because it only teleports the creature that triggered it.

[mwcard=MW1E22] Hellfire Trap[/mwcard] Only can effect an enemy creature that triggers it. Just like Teleport trap.

Now if the other player controls Teleport Trap. You control the [mwcard=FWJ06] Mangler Caltrops[/mwcard]. The effects would apply in initiative but both are mandatory. That is to say if Teleport trap trigger resolves first. The triggering creature will not take damage from the caltrops. If the caltrop's resolve first it will take damage and if it still has not taken lethal damage it will be teleported by the trap. If it has taken lethal damage it will be discarded but the trap will still resolve the trigger.

[Zuberi]

Why would caltrops not deal damage if teleport trap resolves first? It still has to resolve the trigger, the creature is still a valid target, and the creature teleported before the Declare Attack Step so the rules about changing range cancelling the attack shouldn't apply in my opinion, or am I wrong on that?

[Wildhorn]

Why would caltrops not deal damage if teleport trap resolves first? It still has to resolve the trigger, the creature is still a valid target, and the creature teleported before the Declare Attack Step so the rules about changing range cancelling the attack shouldn't apply in my opinion, or am I wrong on that?

How is it still a valid target? Just like with Divine Intervention, if target "moved", target is no more valid.

[Zuberi]

If the target moved during the attack, then the attack is cancelled. If I use Divine Intervention on a creature before it declares an attack, then the creature may still make an attack after being teleported. Moving before an attack occurs does not cancel the possibility of a future attack. That would just be silly. It would go like this:

Move Action Steps
1. Declare Move
2. Leave Zone Effects (if any)
3. Walls (if any)
4. Move to new zone
5. Entering zone triggers = Both Caltrops and Teleport Trap trigger at this time and both require resolution.

5A. We resolve Teleport Trap moving the creature to a new zone. Mangler Caltrops has not yet initiated it's attack, so the attack is not cancelled by this movement.
5B. Mangler Caltrops attempts to resolve it's trigger by initiating an Attack. It begins with the Declare Attack Step, in which it attempts to validate the target. The target is presumably still a non-flying creature, and the Caltrops has no range restriction. Therefore it is still valid and all further combat steps would proceed.

[Shad0w]

[mwcard=FWJ06] Mangler Caltrops[/mwcard] Has a triggered attack  When a non flying creature enters its zone the trigger is created.

All attacks use the same steps.

1. Declare Attack -
 Announce what attack you are using (in the case of caltrops the attack is set by the trigger.)
 Announce what target you are attacking. You must choose a legal target (in the case of Caltrops the target is the triggering creature.)

2. Avoid Attack
 (The Caltrops' attack is unavoidable by defense. If the triggering creature is teleported even if to the same zone it is no longer a legal target. The rule supplement explains this further.)

3. Roll Dice

4. Damage and Effects

5. Additional Strikes

6. Damage Barrier

7. Counterstrike

8. Attack Ends


So now lets take this even further. If creature A has a [mwcard=MW1E02] Block[/mwcard] on it  and moves into the zone with Caltrops and Teleport Trap you 2 triggers when the caltrops tries to attack the creature [mwcard=MW1E02] Block[/mwcard] would then trigger. Even it the creature got moved away by the trap you would lose the block due to its trigger being activated.

[Zuberi]

The rules supplement never says that teleport makes the target an illegal target for future attacks. It states that it cancels the attack because the target moved DURING the attack. This could apply if you are going to make the case that the attack actually begins with the trigger, rather than with the Declare Attack Step, but that's not how the rules seem to be written from my point of view. They seem to clearly state that all attacks begin with the Declare Attack Step and this is reiterated in several places in the rules and rules supplement.

Otherwise, if you are going to say that a teleport which occurs before an attack begins somehow makes the creature an illegal target for all further attacks, we would end up with a whole lot of completely invulnerable creatures running around for the entire game, making it impossible to ever hit them and win the game. Teleport your mage right at the beginning of the game, and you are now immune from ever receiving an attack because you teleported beforehand, making you an illegal target. That's just ludicrous.

Teleport can only affect an attack if it occurs during the attack. Anything else is insanity. The rules state that attacks begin with the Declare Attack Step, not the trigger for the attack. If I have missed something that says otherwise, please point it out to me.

Edit: And in the case of your Block example, if teleport was to cancel the attack, the rules on cancel states it ends immediately. Thus the attack would end BEFORE the Declare Attack Step even occurs, by your logic, so you definitely never make it to the Avoid Attack Step to have the block affected in any way.

[HeatStryke]

From the FAQ:

Similarly, an attack fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Apply Damage and Effects step of an attack :
1. The target of the attack is no longer a legal target, or
2. The source or target of the attack moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport was into the same zone).

If the target of a spell or attack moves, it disrupts the targeting and the attack is canceled.

[Zuberi]

Yes, if it moves after the attack began. However, movement before an attack was declared does not affect the possibility of being attacked. You can't cancel something that hasn't even started yet. And attacks start with the Declare Attack Step.

[HeatStryke]

Your effectively canceling it by moving the target. Moving breaks targeting, it's how spells work, and how attacks work.

Since you can't exactly stack effects, the closest you can get would be to simply apply stock targeting rules.

It's a corner case, where if an automated attack is about to happen simultaneously with a teleport effect the automated attack fails.

Either way it works it'll feel awkward, but since the targeting rules favor canceling the attacks it makes it more consistent. (Caltrops probably ought to have melee range anyway)

[Zuberi]

The rule is that moving cancels an attack that is in progress. You can justify that thematically however you want, so if you want to say it's because it breaks targeting you can. However, moving does not prevent an attack from occurring. If it did, then using a teleport trap to teleport a creature TO a zone with Mangler Caltrops would also prevent those Caltrops from attacking. In both cases, the Caltrops have not attacked yet when the teleport occurs.

If you try to say that attacks begin with the trigger, then first I'd like to ask you where you are finding this rule because my books all say they begin with the Declare Attack Step. But after that, I'd point out the following:
1) This would result in the attack being cancelled before the Declare Attack Step even begins.
2) It would make it possible to avoid Damage Barriers by teleporting after your attack but before the Damage Barrier.

The whole gimmick of the Damage Barrier is that it is a simultaneous attack. By saying that because Mangler Caltrops is occurring simultaneously it gets cancelled, you are negating the rules on Damage Barriers which state that because they occur simultaneously they do not get cancelled. Currently with Damage Barriers, the trigger already occurred but the attack did not, so movement and even death do not cancel the attack. That's how it should work with Caltrops as well.

[sIKE]

Isn't Teleport an Effect that bypasses walls and objects?

[wtcannonjr]

Perhaps we can clarify that teleport also cancels a previous attack trigger. That would support Shadow's description and provide more clarity around the concept of a 'trigger'.