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Author Topic: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone  (Read 29531 times)

jacksmack

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Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« on: September 18, 2014, 09:00:05 AM »
Any specific order these 2 cards take effect?

edit:

Also does it matter if the caltrops mangler is 'friendly' to the target moving into the zone?

(i realize caltrops damages both friends and enemies - but im wondering if it has anything to say to the order of effects.)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 09:03:16 AM by jacksmack »

Boocheck

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 10:55:00 AM »
I would say that owner and controller of those cards decide in which order they activate.
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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 11:17:19 AM »
I would say that owner and controller of those cards decide in which order they activate.
and Initiative if that matters
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Zuberi

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 11:20:33 AM »
If they are both owned by the same person, they could choose the order in which they occur. They must both occur however, regardless. Even if Mangler Caltrops goes first and kills the creature, Hellfire Trap would still have to be revealed. Thus I'm not completely certain why the order is a big concern.

If they are owned by different people, then the person with initiative would decide what order to apply them in. Once again, both must occur regardless of the order however.

jacksmack

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 02:40:46 PM »
Thus I'm not completely certain why the order is a big concern.

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jacksmack

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 02:42:07 PM »
If they are both owned by the same person, they could choose the order in which they occur. They must both occur however, regardless. Even if Mangler Caltrops goes first and kills the creature, Hellfire Trap would still have to be revealed. Thus I'm not completely certain why the order is a big concern.

If they are owned by different people, then the person with initiative would decide what order to apply them in. Once again, both must occur regardless of the order however.


How can the person with initiative decide if the enemy should reveal or not? the facedown could be a decoy or a fortified position.

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 03:24:08 PM »
If they are both owned by the same person, they could choose the order in which they occur. They must both occur however, regardless. Even if Mangler Caltrops goes first and kills the creature, Hellfire Trap would still have to be revealed. Thus I'm not completely certain why the order is a big concern.

If they are owned by different people, then the person with initiative would decide what order to apply them in. Once again, both must occur regardless of the order however.


How can the person with initiative decide if the enemy should reveal or not? the facedown could be a decoy or a fortified position.

You have to reveal trap as soon as enemy step in. Then you decide he order. That's when if trap and caltrop have different owner thats when whoever has initiative decide the order.

Zuberi

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 04:14:56 PM »
If the mangler caltrops and the hellfire trap are controlled by different players, then when a creature walks in and triggers them, the person with initiative can ask the other if they need to do anything before carrying out their own effects. Thus, they can ask for you to apply your caltrops before they decide to reveal their enchantment, or they can ask if you need to reveal anything before they apply their caltrops, depending on who controls what. Either way, you don't have to reveal your enchantment until after the order of events has been decided. The most you have to do is say you need to reveal an enchantment and then they decide whether to let you reveal before or after they apply their effects.

jacksmack

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2014, 06:55:03 AM »
Thanks zub.

Awesome as always.

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 10:19:33 PM »
If they are both owned by the same person, they could choose the order in which they occur. They must both occur however, regardless. Even if Mangler Caltrops goes first and kills the creature, Hellfire Trap would still have to be revealed. Thus I'm not completely certain why the order is a big concern.

If they are owned by different people, then the person with initiative would decide what order to apply them in. Once again, both must occur regardless of the order however.

 When a creature walks in and triggers them, the person with initiative can ask the other if they need to do anything before carrying out their own effects. Thus, they can ask for you to apply your caltrops before they decide to reveal their enchantment, or they can ask if you need to reveal anything before they apply their caltrops, depending on who controls what. Either way, you don't have to reveal your enchantment until after the order of events has been decided. The most you have to do is say you need to reveal an enchantment and then they decide whether to let you reveal before or after they apply their effects.

Correct again  8)
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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2014, 06:03:00 PM »
what about teleport trap and caltrops then? if teleport goes first, caltrops attack is cancelled due to a teleport?
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V10lentray

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2014, 09:55:45 PM »
what about teleport trap and caltrops then? if teleport goes first, caltrops attack is cancelled due to a teleport?

Why would you trigger them in that order? Teleport trap only targets enemy creatures. So, if you controlled both Caltrops and teleport trap and an enemy creature came into the zone, you would obviously hit it with the Caltrops first, then beam it across the arena.

There is no reason to teleport it before triggering caltrops.
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Shad0w

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2014, 10:08:27 PM »
what about teleport trap and caltrops then? if teleport goes first, caltrops attack is cancelled due to a teleport?

Why would you trigger them in that order? Teleport trap only targets enemy creatures. So, if you controlled both Caltrops and teleport trap and an enemy creature came into the zone, you would obviously hit it with the Caltrops first, then beam it across the arena.

There is no reason to teleport it before triggering caltrops.

V10lentray is correct.
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Zuberi

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2014, 10:19:11 PM »
V10lentray is correct that such a situation would be a rather unusual decision, but the question is still valid as to what happens if you were to choose to use the Teleport Trap first.

It is important to recognize that Mangler Caltrops is neither a melee attack nor a ranged attack. It is similar to a damage barrier in that range does not matter for it. Therefore, after you teleport you are still a valid target for the Caltrops and you did trigger them, so they would still get their attack. You could again think of them as similar to a damage barrier and justify these mechanics as though the attack happened concurrent with entering the zone, and you're just now getting to the part of actually applying the effects.

An argument could be made that the rules on page 7 of the FAQ regarding changing the range or target of a spell or attack would apply in this situation, but technically the change in range occurred before the attack began, even though the trigger event already occurred, and so I do not believe that would apply. It doesn't specify it in so many words, but I think an attack has to actually begin, ie go past the Declare Attack Step, before a change in range or target could possibly cancel it.

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Re: Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2014, 10:21:07 PM »
Also, I just realized that it might not be such an unusual situation because the Caltrops attack friendly creatures as well as enemy, so the two spells could be controlled by different players if the creature in question was controlled by the controller of the Caltrops.