My thought on Seedling Pods

[Schwenkgott]

You clearly haven't played enough games with Seedling Pod Druids that know what they are doing then.

1) Druid has some of the best zone control in the game so she is excellent at forces her opponent to go where she wants. Try avoiding zones with Seedling Pods when a druid has them spreading all over the arena,
2) It doesn't take long at all for the pods to get going. With tataree pumping up the pods they reach 3 mana in no time. If a plant is in a bad zone you can use thornlashers to direct enemy creatures where you want them to go.

I don't like this mindset that Vine Tree > Samara Tree. Both builds are equally viable. They just require different play styles and spellbook designs to be effective.

to 1) I dont care about seedling pods, if a druid uses them. I just kill attack the druid. The game is usually over before these pods can do anything, thats really threatens my forces. On top of that, my forces can easily kill any seedling pod while advancing to the enemy mage.

to 2) Tataree ... the butterfly that dies 1 round after summoned with an unavoidable attack? You mean that thing? *g*
The thornlashertrick is more effective then used with Vinetree, because you can spawn them where _you_ want and not where your seedling pods have been planted 3 rounds ago...

I would like to play against your Druid sometimes. Octgn is what you need

[jacksmack]

The 2 trees has equal stats.

Because I don't value the cantrip for the pods very high, I would any day of the week prefer vine tree for 2 mana more for the extra vine markers when needed, and the ability to summon creatures directly when its needed.

I don't necessarily dislike the seedling pod strat combined with the tree in NC, but I would just pay 2 more mana so when pods are no longer a viable play, then you have more options with the vinetree.

[sIKE]

The 2 trees has equal stats.

Because I don't value the cantrip for the pods very high, I would any day of the week prefer vine tree for 2 mana more for the extra vine markers when needed, and the ability to summon creatures directly when its needed.

I don't necessarily dislike the seedling pod strat combined with the tree in NC, but I would just pay 2 more mana so when pods are no longer a viable play, then you have more options with the vinetree.

I my mind the main thing that makes the comparison of one better than the other is that Vine Markers hinder which once spread across the board can be quite a nuance in themselves and then they can be popped it whatever is best for situation at that given time vs. either waiting the 3 rounds or trying to pump them with a fragile Tataree that gets taken out real quick any time I have brought one out.

[MrSaucy]

Huh both the Druids I play against are Vine Tree builds. I'm sorta tempted to try a Seedling Pod build now. Tataree now that I actually look at the card seems very useful over all.

I have tried both trees and they weren't lying when they said each tree comes with its own unique style of play. Certain cards, like Tataree, are weak with a vine tree but very strong with samara tree.

[MrSaucy]

You clearly haven't played enough games with Seedling Pod Druids that know what they are doing then.

1) Druid has some of the best zone control in the game so she is excellent at forces her opponent to go where she wants. Try avoiding zones with Seedling Pods when a druid has them spreading all over the arena,
2) It doesn't take long at all for the pods to get going. With tataree pumping up the pods they reach 3 mana in no time. If a plant is in a bad zone you can use thornlashers to direct enemy creatures where you want them to go.

I don't like this mindset that Vine Tree > Samara Tree. Both builds are equally viable. They just require different play styles and spellbook designs to be effective.

to 1) I dont care about seedling pods, if a druid uses them. I just kill attack the druid. The game is usually over before these pods can do anything, thats really threatens my forces. On top of that, my forces can easily kill any seedling pod while advancing to the enemy mage.

to 2) Tataree ... the butterfly that dies 1 round after summoned with an unavoidable attack? You mean that thing? *g*
The thornlashertrick is more effective then used with Vinetree, because you can spawn them where _you_ want and not where your seedling pods have been planted 3 rounds ago...

I would like to play against your Druid sometimes. Octgn is what you need

Really? The game is over before the pods get to do anything? How short are your games? 8 rounds? Also, time you spend targeting tataree and seedling pods is less time you are taking to develop in the beginning. Sure, tataree dies with an unavoidable attack, but who really wants to waste an entire attack to kill a cheap little butterfly? Also, do you really want to be wasting time attacking pods? Don't you think that will slow you down even just a little? If you do that you are doing what the druid wants you to do... ignore your own ideas and try to deal with the opposition. Sure, you can spawn Thornlashers wherever you want with vine tree. Same with samara tree. With a samara tree in the center it can deploy a seedling pod to five different zones. This can help if you don't have vine markers to extend to those zones. Keep in mind the druid has excellent conjurations in addition to excellent creatures. Think of it this way. You typically use your vine markers with summoning creatures and then your seedling pods can cast cheap, annoying conjurations like tanglevine, stranglevine, bloodspine walls, nightshade lotus, and corrosive orchid. In the end your seedling pods act sorta like vine markers anyway. They take a little longer to payoff but combining them with vine markers expands your versatility and options. You can cover more ground. The sacrifice is that you can't cover ground as quickly as you can with vine tree.

(Also I edited my first response because the first thing I said was a dick move. I didn't mean to be a dick, I just get really passionate about this sorta stuff.)

[gw]

Just wondered why one would use [mwcard=DNC17]Tataree[/mwcard] instead of a standard mana producer like [mwcard=MW1J13]Mana Flower[/mwcard].

Mana Flower costs less and channels mana which can be used on everything.
Tataree costs more and produces mana which can only be used on plants. Also I think he is easier to destroy.

[jacksmack]

Just wondered why one would use [mwcard=DNC17]Tataree[/mwcard] instead of a standard mana producer like [mwcard=MW1J13]Mana Flower[/mwcard].

Mana Flower costs less and channels mana which can be used on everything.
Tataree costs more and produces mana which can only be used on plants. Also I think he is easier to destroy.

Tataree gives you an action marker.

This is more important than 1 might think.

besides the obvious use of speeding up pods.

[Aylin]

Mr. Saucy (and everyone else advocating for Samara Tree builds), just what advantage do you think Samara Tree has over Vine Tree?  I'm honestly curious, since the only reason I would use a Samara is if I wanted to shoot myself in the foot.

[fas723]

Tataree is also an amazing guard.

[gw]

Well, he has the "Pest" trait 

Pest
A small nuisance creature that cannot hinder enemies.
Enemy creatures may ignore a Pest that is guarding to make a melee attack against another target.

Tataree is also an amazing guard.

[joechip90]

So this conversation prompted me to try a seedling pod/samara tree druid build just to see if I had been missing a trick.  I had mixed success.

I tried one build that stocked 6 copies of the seedling pod and the samara and I played against a Forcemaster and I got beat pretty bad.  Without the obstruction of the vines and the fact that the seedling pods don't obstruct movement, the Forcemaster closed me down pretty fast and once she was on me, I had too much mana invested in the seed pods to be able to mount an adequate defense.  Although I could put plenty of pods out onto the board, without having extra vine markers, I found it difficult to position those seedling pods optimally.

I went back to the drawing board and instead built a book using both Samara Tree and Vine Tree.  This second build worked much better.  I put both trees down on the first turn, confusing the hell out of my opponent (a variant of the Watergate Wizard build).  After that I managed to run a pretty effective control strategy with the Samara Tree and my Druid's quick cast pumping out a seed pod each every turn and my vine tree giving a nice amount of positioning control.  Mana wasn't too limiting (Druid usually used full action on Meditaton amulet) and I could always deploy a creature each turn using the Vine Tree's casts even if I didn't have a seed pod ready.  Despite a couple of early bumps I eventually managed to overwhelm the wizard.  From round 6 onwards, there was always at least 5 seedling pods on the board at the start of the turn.  By the end of the game I had too many actions to know what to do with each turn.

I did enjoy this build immensely but it did take a bit to get it working nicely.  I guess I have been convinced that the Samara Tree/Seed Pods do have their utility but I'm not ready to ditch the vine tree yet.  Without the Vine Tree, seed pod positioning is quite difficult unless you're willing to put your Samara tree in one of the central zones which is pretty ballsy and asking for trouble (particularly if you've treebonded with it).

[fas723]

Well, he has the "Pest" Trait.

Wow, never thought of Pest having that rule. Shit I have played all Pest creatures wrong...

[IndyPendant]

The problem here is that the Samara Tree brings *one* thing to the table that the Vine Tree doesn't: Seedling Pods become Cantrips.  The Vine Tree can cast Seedling Pods as well, so if you're thinking of using a Pod build, just pack six of them and use them with the Vine Tree instead.  Six total Pods should be plenty for most games; you can only have six out at a time anyway, even with the Samara's Cantrip ability.

Now, I could see playing with both trees working in some builds, but this is more about making the Samara Tree viable on its own.  (And personally, if I were going two spawnpoints, it would be Vine Tree + Battleforge anyway.  Much better combo, well worth the +4 Spellbook points.)

The Samara Tree just doesn't compare.  It's a crap card, at best used as a lesser partner to an already-played Vine Tree.

[joechip90]

The problem here is that the Samara Tree brings *one* thing to the table that the Vine Tree doesn't: Seedling Pods become Cantrips.  The Vine Tree can cast Seedling Pods as well, so if you're thinking of using a Pod build, just pack six of them and use them with the Vine Tree instead.  Six total Pods should be plenty for most games; you can only have six out at a time anyway, even with the Samara's Cantrip ability.

You're right, I also can't think of a way for the Samara tree to work effectively on its own without a Vine tree for positioning support.  However, once I had the Samara tree in my build I found I became very spam happy with the seed pods and, whilst you're right that I couldn't have more than six on the board at any one time, I did make very good use of the Cantrip ability provided by the Samara tree.  By the end of the game I was casting at least two seed pods a turn (to replace ones that had deployed or had been destroyed) and, whilst I felt this strategy worked nicely, it took a long time to finally kill the wizard (his cheap access to arcane gave him quite a few tricks that delayed my being able to pin him down).  The game must've lasted around 15 rounds and I think I must've cast seed pod at least 20 times.

This strategy just wouldn't be possible without having the Samara tree in the mix.  Whether this Druid could beat my previous build using just the vine tree is difficult to say.  Certainly my vine tree only build can play much more aggressively but I've never seen anything as good for raw output as the Samara and Vine tree combo build once it has its factory up and running.

Now, I could see playing with both trees working in some builds, but this is more about making the Samara Tree viable on its own.  (And personally, if I were going two spawnpoints, it would be Vine Tree + Battleforge anyway.  Much better combo, well worth the +4 Spellbook points.)

I usually don't tend to run much equipment for the Druid to justify a triple-cost battleforge.  Most of the armour items can be replaced with cheaper enchantments for the Druid (Rhino hide or Barkskin).  Occasionally, I might run a Veteran's belt (sucking up the triple war school cost) as it can work nicely with her Cantrip Barkskin armour.  But they are sufficiently cheap that I don't feel the need to have a Battleforge pumping out the mana for me.  At least for my builds, I am rarely limited by actions for the Druid so I don't mind using my quickcast to equip the odd bits of equipment I do have (Leaf Ring etc.).

The Samara Tree just doesn't compare.  It's a crap card, at best used as a lesser partner to an already-played Vine Tree.

I'm not sure I agree about the Samara Tree being crap.  Yes, I tend to see the Vine Tree as a 'must have' for the Druid and I can't really imagine a competitive Druid without having that one in the spell book.  Samara tree certainly isn't that but I don't think that makes it 'crap'.  To me a 'crap' card is one that I can't ever imagine putting in a spellbook and that, if I were to do that, it would handicap me.  I have used the Samara tree (with the maximum number of seed pods) for some builds and I have been successful with it.  When I have used the tree, I have rested heavily on the Cantrip traits of the seed pods and my strategy would not have worked without it.

I guess time will tell if my local meta gets used to my combo Druid and managed to form a successful counter to it but for now it is taking down tournament-quality builds.

[MrSaucy]

Mr. Saucy (and everyone else advocating for Samara Tree builds), just what advantage do you think Samara Tree has over Vine Tree?  I'm honestly curious, since the only reason I would use a Samara is if I wanted to shoot myself in the foot.

1) If you don't use a vine marker during a round it is doing nothing (other than allowing you to reach further with your spreading vines ability). But if you don't use a seedling pod during a round it continues to channel and becomes more powerful as the game goes on. I can give an example. There was a game where I had a seedling pod in a zone but later the action moved away from that zone. I thought the seedling pod was useless. But then that pod reached 6 mana and I realized I could spend just 1 mana from my supply to deploy Etherian Lifetree (I was playing against a Necromancer so this ended up being a good idea).

2) Seedling pods work well if you want to go heavier on conjurations than normal, especially cheap conjurations like bloodspine wall, tanglevine, mana flower, etc. If you aren't big on conjurations and want to focus on creatures, which a lot of players understandably choose, then stick with vine tree.

3) Seedling pods can lead to "big" turns. For example, say a pod deploys a bloodspine wall (0-1 mana from your supply) while an adjacent pod spawns a thornlasher (0-4 mana from your supply) and then you use your QC to cast rouse the beast on the thornlasher. And after all of this action you still have your main action marker to perhaps meditate with meditation amulet, move into a better zone, summon a creature, stuff like that. Vine Tree doesn't offer "big" turns. Instead it offers consistency and speed.

4) As the earlier example demonstrates, seedling pods are excellent at saving actions. And there is plenty of evidence that actions are just as important a resource as mana.

5) Seedling pods maximize your aggregate channeling (your tree channels, your pods channel, and you channel).

6) This is the weakest argument but I think samara treed and seedling pods are "more fun" than vine tree, especially if you don't have to win to enjoy the game. Samara Tree and the pods really embrace the druid's themes, and if you are anything like me you enjoy playing thematically... maybe even when you realize it may not necessarily be optimal.