Passage Attacks pushes and Wall of Pikes facing

[gos_jim]

If a spell or ability says it cannot push a creature through a wall that has the Passage Attacks trait (or requires extra mana), does it count a Wall of Pikes if you're pushing in a direction that doesn't cause damage?

Imagine I'm a Forcemaster and the Warlord is on the other side of a Wall of Pikes, pointy end facing me. On my turn, can I use my Pull ability to pull them through the wall into my zone so I can attack them (but not cause damage from the wall)?

Read literally, it seems I would not be able to do that. However, I understand that the primary reason these limitations on pushes were put in place were to make walls LESS powerful because the damaging attacks were too good at the normal pushing mana cost. This limitation, if I can't pull them from behind the wall, seems to make Wall of Pikes MORE powerful rather than less.

[Mathias]

In my opinion you don't have to pay the extra mana to push alongside the 'save' side of the pikes.
No attack is triggered.

[Paleblue]

Strictly speaking the wall of pikes has the attack passage trait, its just you only take damage from a certain direction. As such I think you still need to pay extra no matter the direct you are force pushing the person.

[sIKE]

Add in a couple of Mangler Caltrops on each side of the pikes once you get into position. Push through the Pikes 5 dice + 2 dice of potential damage. Next pull back to you 2 dice of potential damage pull doulbe stike with the Force Sword. That is between 2 rounds 17 dice of damage and still have a quick cast spell remaining....

[gos_jim]

See I can see both sides of the argument, though I agree that it looks like the "official" interpretation would lead to you NOT being able to do it.

sIKE, I don't even know what you're responding to, because your reply had nothing to do with the question. I wasn't asking for tips on how to use Wall of Pikes more effectively, I was playing Forcemaster and trying to deal with my opponent's Wall of Pikes.

On top of that, you could instead spend 2 rounds double-striking with the Force Sword and quick attacking with Invisible Fist (or any other attack of choice) and get 24 dice of damage rather than trying to set up some precarious situation that could be almost as dangerous to you as it would be to your opponent. Just saying.

[Arcanus]

Hello all, we are for the confusion on this spell.

This wall is very unusual in that it only has the "Passage Attack" trait for one direction, and thus you only have to pay the extra mana for Push type spells if if wish to Push them form the direction that would attack them.

We are adding this to the Official FAQ which is being wrapped up today.

[sIKE]

You are correct, that should of been made in the Tactics forum. Yes you could leave him in the same zone and dbl strike twice. But it leaves him in the same zone with you and potentially takes actions for him to respond.

I do not think that Passage Blocked Trait applies to the non-pointy end. But I have been wrong on the last couple of call though.....

[Hedge]

this ruling is directly in opposition to the text of the card as it does not state that it looses the passage blocked trait, simply that the attack is not done. those are two different things.


hedge

[Stormmaster]

That does make sense that there is no restriction/additional mana cost pulling through since there is no passage attack going that direction.  You aren't going through a passage attack.

[Wiz-Pig]

this ruling is directly in opposition to the text of the card as it does not state that it looses the passage blocked trait, simply that the attack is not done. those are two different things.


hedge

so what? It's in the spirit of the card, they are adding it to the FAQ and I think we can assume it was their intention as well. Get over it.

[Hedge]

wiz pig- the problem is I can't search the forum for ever interaction of every card to make sure there isn't a card interaction base on intent. I am not psychic to discern intent.

[Shad0w]

I had to make a ruling on this this interaction at Gencon.

In that case an FM tried to pull a mage through a wall with passage attack. Based of the wording of wall of pikes vs her pull ability she could not but I knew the intent of the wall and I explained the ruling to the involved players.

[Wiz-Pig]

wiz pig- the problem is I can't search the forum for ever interaction of every card to make sure there isn't a card interaction base on intent. I am not psychic to discern intent.

I can understand that, but it will be in the FAQ and it's not too hard to simply reference the FAQ.

[Hedge]

wiz pig- the problem is I can't search the forum for ever interaction of every card to make sure there isn't a card interaction base on intent. I am not psychic to discern intent.

I can understand that, but it will be in the FAQ and it's not too hard to simply reference the FAQ.

That is until the FAQ is fifty pages long because we will need hundreds of entries if things continue to be ruled on intent as opposed to thier text. Only Cards that simply do not function inside of thier own text need an intent ruling, others just operate by thier text. If there is some interaction that was not intended, but it doesn't break the game it should be left alone.  Could it make some things a little stronger or weaker? Perhaps, But is it really worse than the need to tell some one that is new to the game that these cards don't interact the way they should, and you need to reference this ruling encyclopedia to make sure your spell book functions the way it should.



Hedge

[sIKE]

@Hegde

The problem then is strict interpretationist with items like Wall of Pikes.  It is so obvious that only the pointy end has the Passage Blocked trait "however" the card states the wall has the Passage Blocked trait. If the "text" doesn't make that clear then either the issue is taken care of in the FAQ or is Errata'ed and fixed in future releases of the card.

This is why I think the Promo's being played with before official release is important so people ask questions like this and the card has clear and concise text.