Pillar of Rifhteous Flame and upkeep timing

[iNano78]

1) If Pillar hands out a Burn (d12 > 8) during an attack caused by removing its Dissipate, do you roll for that burn in the same Upkeep phase?

2) Does it make an attack when you remove the last Dissipate (and does it depend on Initiative)?

[Puddnhead]

1) If Pillar hands out a Burn (d12 > during an attack caused by removing its Dissipate, do you roll for that burn in the same Upkeep phase?

2) Does it make an attack when you remove the last Dissipate (and does it depend on Initiative)?

1) Yes, conditions received during upkeep are processed during upkeep
2) It does not matter on initiative as both effects are controlled by one player.  The effects happen in whichever order the controller chooses.  Therefore, it should always attack before it dissipates unless for some reason the controller wanted it to dissipate first.

[Borg]

1) If Pillar hands out a Burn (d12 > during an attack caused by removing its Dissipate, do you roll for that burn in the same Upkeep phase?

2) Does it make an attack when you remove the last Dissipate (and does it depend on Initiative)?

1) Yes, conditions received during upkeep are processed during upkeep
2) It does not matter on initiative as both effects are controlled by one player.  The effects happen in whichever order the controller chooses.  Therefore, it should always attack before it dissipates unless for some reason the controller wanted it to dissipate first.

I was under the impression that Upkeep was performed on an Initiative basis.
So, if the player with Initiative rolls a Burn for Pillar, then the second player will have to roll for the burn during that upkeep phase BUT if the Pillar player goes second the Burn token will have effect only next upkeep.
Correct ?

Are you sure about 2 ?
The Codex on dissipate : "When the last token is removed, destroy this object."
So, you're saying you can get another Pillar during the upkeep that you destroy the Pillar ?
Are there any other dissipate spells that still give you their bonus during the round that they are destroyed ?

[jacksmack]

I was under the impression that Upkeep was performed on an Initiative basis.
So, if the player with Initiative rolls a Burn for Pillar, then the second player will have to roll for the burn during that upkeep phase BUT if the Pillar player goes second the Burn token will have effect only next upkeep.
Correct ?

just because the player with iniative resolves all his upkeep including rolling burns etc. his upkeep is not finished as such. If he later in the upkeep recieves another effect that has an effect during upkeep (ie pillar burns) then he will resolve these effects in this upkeep as well. But he can obviously not resolve an effect before he recieves the condition that provides the effect.

Initiative in the upkeep does not mean one player does everything first and then his upkeep is finished.
Its only there to settle timing between effects that are owned by different players.

Are you sure about 2 ?
The Codex on dissipate : "When the last token is removed, destroy this object."
So, you're saying you can get another Pillar during the upkeep that you destroy the Pillar ?
Are there any other dissipate spells that still give you their bonus during the round that they are destroyed ?

Lullaby and the whisp amulet are examples of this.

[ExcaliburTK]

as i was writing post jacksmack replied and explained it much better than i did

[Biblofilter]

Dissipate is something we have been messing up locally.

I try to look at it like this: If it has X dissipate tokens you should be able to use it X times.

So in case of the Pillar it gets 3 attacks + the first one.

Im still not sure we are doing it right?

[jacksmack]

When you remove the last dissipate token it will do the last attack if there is an enemy in the zone.

[Zuberi]

Both players resolve their upkeep effects simultaneously, with each player deciding the order in which they want to resolve the things affecting them. Initiative doesn't matter at all during this phase except if you have a timing issue. A timing issue being if you need to decide when something affecting your stuff happens relative to something affecting your opponent's. We'll come back to this in a moment.

When you remove the last dissipate token, it triggers two things. One being the card's destruction, and the other being an attack made by the card. Both of these things occur "when" the dissipate token is removed. This means they are both trying to occur at the same time. Because both affect the same object, the Pillar of Righteous Flame (one granting it an attack and the other destroying it) the person who controls the Pillar gets to decide what order to resolve them in.

That's the trick to a lot of timing things in the Upkeep Phase. Identifying what is being affected by the thing, because whomever controls the object being affected is the one who gets to decide the timing. Wispwillow Amulet is another good example of this. When it removes it's last dissipate token, the Mage wearing it gains 1 Mana and the Amulet gets destroyed. One thing affects the Mage and the other affects the Amulet, but due to the unique rules regarding equipment both of these things will always have the same controller. Therefore, the same person gets to decide what order they occur in.

Lullaby is different. It has an effect that is affecting the creature it is attached to, while its destruction is obviously affecting the Lullaby card itself. Often Lullaby and the attached creature will have different controllers. This is a case where you're likely to have a timing issue as you want to decide which happens first. Does my Lullaby get destroyed first or does your creature get affected by it first? Because they are controlled by different people, this is a case of a timing isssue where the player who has Initiative for the round would decide.

[Schwenkgott]

With enemies in its zone, the Pillar does at least 4 attacks plus one attack each time an enemy creature enters the zone. I'd say: Powerlevel over 9000!

[jacksmack]

Often Lullaby and the attached creature will have different controllers. This is a case where you're likely to have a timing issue as you want to decide which happens first. Does my Lullaby get destroyed first or does your creature get affected by it first? Because they are controlled by different people, this is a case of a timing isssue where the player who has Initiative for the round would decide.

I will challenge you on Lullaby.

Both effects are owned by the controller of the enchantment.

[iNano78]

Regarding 1), "there is no stack in Mage Wars." When the last dissipate is removed, and both "destroy this object" (see Codex entry for Dissipate) and "Pillar of Righteous Flame attacks an enemy creature" (see card) both trigger, and you resolve them in the order of your choice. Neither effect takes precedent over the other, even if it seems unintuitive (e.g. the conjuration is still there to make the attack until you choose to resolve "destroy this object").

Regarding question 2), the timing can seem weird, where the same type of effect affecting the same object can be resolved at different times during the same upkeep.

Case in point: A Bloodwave Warlord has initiative, and he controls an Orc Butcher with a Burn condition in a zone with the Pillar of Righteous Flame, which is controlled by a Priest of Malakai. With initiative, the Orc's controller rolls for the Burn condition first, and the Orc takes 2 damage. Next, the Priest's controller removes a Dissipate token from the Pillar, and it makes an attack against the Orc Butcher. It deals some damage and puts a second Burn token on the Orc Butcher. According to the ruling above, this new Burn token also needs to be resolved during this same upkeep phase, even though the previous Burn condition affecting the same creature was already resolved in initiative order earlier during this upkeep. The timing window (upkeep phase, in this case) is still open, so the effect (Burn condition #2) has to be resolved.

Does that make sense?

[jacksmack]

I agree with you Nano.
There may even be rare cases where you do not want the pillar to do the final attack, and instead choose to let it be destroyed first.
(maybe you wish to avoid the rot zombie to poison you, or finish the only creature in zone with kralathor.)


As of now there has not been an official ruling to how you resolve multiple burns.

Imagine a creature with 4 total life and regen 2 with 2 burns on it.

Is it possible to roll a single burn to see if it rolls a 2. Then regen it to avoid the risk of it dying to the second burn?
Or must the burns be rolled for at the same time?

Despite this. After burns are resolved - any burns added later in the upkeep still needs to be resolved.

[jacksmack]

Often Lullaby and the attached creature will have different controllers. This is a case where you're likely to have a timing issue as you want to decide which happens first. Does my Lullaby get destroyed first or does your creature get affected by it first? Because they are controlled by different people, this is a case of a timing isssue where the player who has Initiative for the round would decide.

I will challenge you on Lullaby.

Both effects are owned by the controller of the enchantment.

To elaborate.

The owner of the enchantment has 2 things happening to Lullaby during the upkeep.

1) remove a dissipate

2) roll the effect dice.

He decides the order of these 2 and will almost always choose to roll first.

[Zuberi]

I agree with you Nano.
There may even be rare cases where you do not want the pillar to do the final attack, and instead choose to let it be destroyed first.
(maybe you wish to avoid the rot zombie to poison you, or finish the only creature in zone with kralathor.)


As of now there has not been an official ruling to how you resolve multiple burns.

Imagine a creature with 4 total life and regen 2 with 2 burns on it.

Is it possible to roll a single burn to see if it rolls a 2. Then regen it to avoid the risk of it dying to the second burn?
Or must the burns be rolled for at the same time?

Despite this. After burns are resolved - any burns added later in the upkeep still needs to be resolved.

There is an official ruling. You resolve each effect that is affecting your objects in an order of your choosing. Each burn is a separate condition/effect. You resolve them one at a time in an order of your choosing, and can definitely resolve other effects in between them. Most people choose to roll for all of their burns at the same time because they can and it is expedient, but the official ruling is that you resolve them one at a time.

Regarding Lullaby, it's in the Supplement. Things like Lullaby and Pillar are tricky because what is actually being affected by the effect? With Lullaby we have the official ruling that the target creature is what's being affected by Lullaby's effect, but Lullaby itself is what's affected by the removal of the Dissipate token. With Pillar we don't really have an official ruling, and I suppose you could make an argument that the enemy creature is what's being affected, but the way I read it is that the effect of removing the dissipate token is to grant the pillar an attack, thus affecting the Pillar.

[jacksmack]

I agree with you Nano.
There may even be rare cases where you do not want the pillar to do the final attack, and instead choose to let it be destroyed first.
(maybe you wish to avoid the rot zombie to poison you, or finish the only creature in zone with kralathor.)


As of now there has not been an official ruling to how you resolve multiple burns.

Imagine a creature with 4 total life and regen 2 with 2 burns on it.

Is it possible to roll a single burn to see if it rolls a 2. Then regen it to avoid the risk of it dying to the second burn?
Or must the burns be rolled for at the same time?

Despite this. After burns are resolved - any burns added later in the upkeep still needs to be resolved.

There is an official ruling. You resolve each effect that is affecting your objects in an order of your choosing. Each burn is a separate condition/effect. You resolve them one at a time in an order of your choosing, and can definitely resolve other effects in between them. Most people choose to roll for all of their burns at the same time because they can and it is expedient, but the official ruling is that you resolve them one at a time.

Regarding Lullaby, it's in the Supplement. Things like Lullaby and Pillar are tricky because what is actually being affected by the effect? With Lullaby we have the official ruling that the target creature is what's being affected by Lullaby's effect, but Lullaby itself is what's affected by the removal of the Dissipate token. With Pillar we don't really have an official ruling, and I suppose you could make an argument that the enemy creature is what's being affected, but the way I read it is that the effect of removing the dissipate token is to grant the pillar an attack, thus affecting the Pillar.

With that logic how are you gonna resolve Death Link?
Does that mean that the warlock with intiative can choose to heal from Death Link as first thing. The creature with 2 health left will not die because it can regenerate because it can delay the damage transfer from the warlock until it resolved regeneration?

Pretty absurd if i after 4 years still havent figured out how to resolve one of the frequently used cards....


In regards to Lullaby it means that all non-siren mages can only reveal it every second round (timed with initative) to gain 2 rounds from it.
Thats not good.