Is the arena wizard still OP?

[Laddinfance]

I just returned from Origins this weekend, so I'll keep my response brief. I've tried to have a "measure twice, cut once" mentality about errata. I would rather wait and make the better call, then race forward and make the wrong one. That said I'm looking at a few changes right now. I know that I am not going to please everyone, but I'm going to push for what I feel is in the best interest of the game. That's my burden, and agree or disagree you all will have your own opinions on it, and that is fantastic.

On the subject of why things take so long: Making Mage Wars is always a balancing act. There is always too much to do and not enough time to do it. Right now my focus is going be on getting all of you new product. It's going to be on making the next set or designing the next Mage. To me this is the lifeblood of the game. If there isn't something new and cool to customize your spellbook with, then you stop customizing. In the past year, we've released Domination, Academy, and now Academy Priestess and Warlock. We have PVS this year as well.  I know that not all of those products have appealed to all of our players, but I point them out because before Domination it was at least a year wait for a Mage War product at all, and now we've had 4 come out in a year, with PVS on the way. So we're getting back on a rhythm. I know that making the next set in that rhythm is of paramount importance as well.

None of that was meant to take away from the needed updates to the various documents and software packages. I'm excited. Several playtesters have stepped up and will be helping me clean up these items and hopefully we'll get it all in a good space. This also goes back to that matter of balance, and with the extra help, I'm hoping to find that balance.

I've rambled too much already, but I wanted to let you all now at least some of where I was coming from and what I'm doing to try and move things in a good direction. Origins was fantastic and uplifting. I want to thank everyone who came and visited me at the booth. Your encouragement means a great deal to me.

[iNano78]

" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

This would be a very elegant fix that stays true to the lore.

You're kidding, right? More and more equipment is going to be added to the game over time. Even now, who cares if the Wizard is restricted to other school's equipment? So, no War school armor pieces... but he still gets the torso piece that is attuned to his element (Leviathan Scale is coming, and I'm guessing Earth will also get a chest piece as well at some point), plus one of the arcane Cloaks... and then any of the enchantments that add armor.... What do you gain? He has several wands in school, and probably doesn't need any others. What rings does a Wizard usually use that isn't in school? Weapons? OK... so he can't use Eagleclaw Boots... what a loss. If absolutely needed, he can Tanglevine himself. Want a Regen Belt? Use Regrowth instead. There are plenty of alternatives that give equivalent effects for the lack of the few pieces of equipment to which he might actually care about losing access.

Here is a list of all the equipment the Wizard can currently equip that he would lose access to with this change (including promos, since these will presumably matter down the road, let alone online):
[spellbook]
[spells]
Ankh of Asyra
[mwcard=mw1q02]Bearskin[/mwcard]
Chitin Armor
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ03]Colossus Belt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ01]Dancing Scimitar[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q27]Dawnbreaker Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ02]Defense Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q04]Deflection Bracers[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ06]Eagleclaw Boots[/mwcard]
Elfric's Life Ring
Eye of Bael
Faith Healer's Staff
[mwcard=mw1q11]Gauntlets of Strength[/mwcard]
Gloves of Skill
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ02]Hunting Bow[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q13]Ivarium Longbow[/mwcard]
Leather Belt
[mwcard=mw1q15]Leather Boots[/mwcard]
Leather Chausses
[mwcard=mw1q16]Leather Gloves[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ10]Meditation Amulet[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ06]Morning Star[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ04]Reflex Boots[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q23]Regrowth Belt[/mwcard]
Resplendent Bow
Ring of Healing
Spiked Armor
Spiked Buckler
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ01]Sunfire Amulet[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ07]Veteran's Belt[/mwcard]
Vorpal Blade
[mwcard=DNQ09]Wand of Healing[/mwcard]
Wychwood Ironvine
[/spells]
[/spellbook]

And he would still have access to:
[spellbook]
[spells]
[mwcard=mw1q01]Arcane Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ05]Dispel Wand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q07]Elemental Cloak[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q08]Elemental Wand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q09]Enchanter's Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q18]Mage Staff[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q19]Mage Wand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q22]Moonglow Amulet[/mwcard]
Mordok's Tome
Repulsion Cloak
Rod of the Arcanum
Sistarran Robes
[mwcard=mw1q31]Staff of the Arcanum[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q32]Suppression Cloak[/mwcard]
Wispwillow Amulet
[/spells]
[/spellbook]

And depending on his choice of element, he could still have access to some of:
[spellbook]
[spells]
Cloak of Fire
[mwcard=mw1q06]Dragonscale Hauberk[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q10]Fireshaper Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1Q01]Gale Force Ring[/mwcard]
Leviathan Scale Armor
[mwcard=mw1q17]Lightning Ring[/mwcard]
Staff of Storms
[mwcard=FWQ10]Storm Drake Hide[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q33]Wind Wyvern Hide[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[/spellbook]

And of course, only a Fire Wizard would have access to Dragonscale Hauberk, which makes the Wizard's choice of school actually relevant - as compared to, say, some cases where the Elemental School choice was arbitrary.

I think the biggest impact this proposal alone would have is preventing a Wizard from wearing (1) Veteran's Belt or one of the regeneration belts, (2) All the Leathers (!), (3) Gloves of Skill (like a mini Akiro's Favor for ranged attacks), (4) Chitin Armor (no Acid resistance for the Wizard), (5) Eagleclaw Boots (Wizard becomes easy to push around), (6) Reflex Boots/Bracers of Defense/Dancing Scimitar (no equipment-based defense for the Wizard), ... and probably most importantly, only a Fire Wizard can bulk up on Dragonscale Hauberks (although all but Earth Wizards have at least one +2 armor chestpiece available, and even the Earth Wizard can wear Sistarran Robes and Elemental/Suppression/Repulsion Cloak).

So while this proposed "fix" is thematic and does something to make Wizards at least slightly less tanky by adding a drawback, I'm inclined to agree with DaveW that it may not do enough. Perhaps if this "fix" were approved, it might be accompanied by other "fixes" - like (1) cutting the Wizard's channeling to 9 (since he still has cheap access to more +Channeling spells than any other mage - might as well have incentive to use them), and (2) slapping "Epic" on the Wands (which hurts everybody to some degree but at least makes matches end eventually) and Wizard's Tower (...), and (3) making Arcane Zap a little less good (e.g. either costs more mana or loses Ethereal or has a 1-1 range restriction or can't target flying creatures or something so it isn't so darn good).

[Brian VanAlstyne]

I think the best option is to errata the least amount of cards possible and the best way to do that to me is to errata the Wizard's card itself. The wands are too prevalent to have to re-issue those. What makes the most sense to me is one, to errata the tower so changing the spell costs an action & mana, add a triple cost opposite elemental school, and possibly triple cost all out of school equipment. It stops I think the bulk of the issues.

[rant]

I think the best option is to errata the least amount of cards possible and the best way to do that to me is to errata the Wizard's card itself. The wands are too prevalent to have to re-issue those. What makes the most sense to me is one, to errata the tower so changing the spell costs an action & mana, add a triple cost opposite elemental school, and possibly triple cost all out of school equipment. It stops I think the bulk of the issues.

I can't see the wizard getting an errata.  The game has been out since 2012 with those abilities and there have been a number of printings since then.  it feels like an "in too deep" situation. 

[RomeoXero]

I see it. It both can and should happen. Changing one card for future printings is no different for mages or other cards. They released altered versions for battle fury hobs and Tol. Why not the wizard? I know they don't happen fast or flippantly but the topic is very hot, and deserves some extra attention. Which according to laddinfance, it is actively receiving said attention right now. Thank you aaron for the response and im sorry there was this much drama right after origins.
My biggest peeves are the tower and his lack of a trip school. Tag the tower with epic and ill be appeased, give the mage either one major school to pay trip for or give him an assortment of the minor (read elemental) schools at triple and ill be entirely happy.

For whatever that's worth lol

[jacksmack]

" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

This would be a very elegant fix that stays true to the lore.

You're kidding, right? More and more equipment is going to be added to the game over time. Even now, who cares if the Wizard is restricted to other school's equipment? So, no War school armor pieces... but he still gets the torso piece that is attuned to his element (Leviathan Scale is coming, and I'm guessing Earth will also get a chest piece as well at some point), plus one of the arcane Cloaks... and then any of the enchantments that add armor.... What do you gain? He has several wands in school, and probably doesn't need any others. What rings does a Wizard usually use that isn't in school? Weapons? OK... so he can't use Eagleclaw Boots... what a loss. If absolutely needed, he can Tanglevine himself. Want a Regen Belt? Use Regrowth instead. There are plenty of alternatives that give equivalent effects for the lack of the few pieces of equipment to which he might actually care about losing access.

If you want to post something serious do so... but stop trolling please.

Alone removing veterans belt, healing wand and Chtitin armor will make a significant difference... comboing these items with voltaric shield is basicly what turns him into an unkillable thing when adding a noticiable amount of armor and aegos 1 into the mix.

Regarding future releases.... are you joking or what? do you expect that armor goes to infinity or what???


Your post smells bad dude...

[DaveW]

" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

This would be a very elegant fix that stays true to the lore.

You're kidding, right? More and more equipment is going to be added to the game over time. Even now, who cares if the Wizard is restricted to other school's equipment? So, no War school armor pieces... but he still gets the torso piece that is attuned to his element (Leviathan Scale is coming, and I'm guessing Earth will also get a chest piece as well at some point), plus one of the arcane Cloaks... and then any of the enchantments that add armor.... What do you gain? He has several wands in school, and probably doesn't need any others. What rings does a Wizard usually use that isn't in school? Weapons? OK... so he can't use Eagleclaw Boots... what a loss. If absolutely needed, he can Tanglevine himself. Want a Regen Belt? Use Regrowth instead. There are plenty of alternatives that give equivalent effects for the lack of the few pieces of equipment to which he might actually care about losing access.

If you want to post something serious do so... but stop trolling please.

Alone removing veterans belt, healing wand and Chtitin armor will make a significant difference... comboing these items with voltaric shield is basicly what turns him into an unkillable thing when adding a noticiable amount of armor and aegos 1 into the mix.

Regarding future releases.... are you joking or what? do you expect that armor goes to infinity or what???


Your post smells bad dude...

I guess I don't know what you mean by "trolling," but I assure you that it was entirely serious. I was pointing out that restricting out-of school equipment did very little to a Wizard, along with examples.

iNano got it... I'm not sure why you didn't. Regardless, I do take offense to your presumption and declaration  that I am not taking this seriously (and probably that I was "trolling," whatever that is).

[jhaelen]

Regarding future releases.... are you joking or what? do you expect that armor goes to infinity or what???

I wonder who's the troll here...

The point and the example given was that eventually, there'll be great equipment for each of the elemental schools.
Also, no game is safe from power-creep. The internet hivemind has a tendency of quickly figuring out and abusing the 'best' cards in new sets. Usually, they turn out to be the 'best' because of unforseen interactions with other cards. No amount of careful design and playtesting can fully prevent this. It's in the very nature of customizable games following an exception-based design principle.

[wtcannonjr]

I still haven't read anything in this forum that convinces me there is a problem that needs fixing. An overpowered mage for me would need to be able to win each match regardless of player skill. An example of something like this from another game was provided earlier for A Few Acres of Snow. A game strategy was discovered that every player could use to ensure a victory.

I haven't seen that discussion here. Players recognize that player skill more than spellbook designs will win the day in the end. Instead I read that yes, we have counters to each spellbook choice the Wizard can make, but we feel that having so many choices during spellbook design for one mage is overpowered for reason X, Y, and Z. My experience has been that for any given match the Wizard must still make choices among all the options. So if he decides to be a fire wizard any spellbook designed to counter Warlocks and fire should be easy to include counters for a fire Wizard. This is the nature of spellbook design. As more spells are added to each school the dynamics of choices will change and if done in a balanced way keep the overall game design balanced. As long as the schools remain specialized in some way this will provide the generalists with choices and provide a trained mage the option in spellbook design to craft strategies to defeat a generalist.

One more thought -  when we make comparisons of various abilities and spells in the game we should be sure to include all costs and benefits in the analysis. For example, the Wizard shield provides flexibility to prevent damage each round that other mages require a spell to get a similar effect. This benefit comes with a cost that it must be committed to in the planning phase at the cost of 2 mana. So the mage receives this benefit only if he spends the 2 mana that turn. In effect an opponent can lower the Wizard's channeling to 8 a turn if threatened to commit to using the shield each turn. Thus, for the Wizard to receive this benefit each turn the Wizard drops to channeling the lowest amount each turn of any mage. In effect using the ability lowers a recognize strength of the mage (channeling 10) to a weakness. This cost to using the ability is often overlooked in the earlier posts. Other mage abilities don't have an ongoing cost or only have a one time cost to receive the benefit each round. These costs have subtle effects on play and should be considered when comparing abilities across different mages.

[iNano78]

I still haven't read anything in this forum that convinces me there is a problem that needs fixing. An overpowered mage for me would need to be able to win each match regardless of player skill. An example of something like this from another game was provided earlier for A Few Acres of Snow. A game strategy was discovered that every player could use to ensure a victory.

^^ here is your problem.  Overpowered =/= "cannot lose."  We're not talking about one mage playing in "god mode" that literally cannot not win; we're talking about a mage that has inherent advantages over other mages in an unbalanced way. 

Let's assume we agree that the Forcemaster and the Arraxian Crown Warlock are currently balanced relative to each other.  That is, if two equally skilled Mage Warriors choose either of these mages and build books for them and play each other - and repeat this many times, building new books from scratch each time - that they'll each have close to a 50% win record on average.  Then, let's give the Forcemaster 42 life instead of 32 life and repeat the experiment.  The Forcemaster will still lose some matches, because quite often an extra 10 life wouldn't have mattered (e.g. some matches are more lopsided than others).  But by making one mage inherently better than it was before, we've shifted the balance between these mages, and we might now expect the Forcemaster to win 50+X%, where X>0.  Thus, the Forcemaster is now overpowered to some extent relative to the Warlock.

This is what we're talking about with the Wizard.  The Wizard has inherent advantages (mage abilities, a particularly powerful Familiar with Spellbind etc, no triple school... basically a bunch of really good stuff and no drawbacks).  Because it is stronger than other mages in virtually every head-to-head situation, between equally skilled players, it is likely to win 50+X% of the time where X>0.  X isn't 50; e.g. the Wizard can lose.  But it's generally better on average than other mages.  And so much so that the metagame is shifted towards "Wizard or something that has a chance to beat a Wizard" - at least to some degree.  Imbalance like this is generally bad for the game, either because it skews the competitive scene, and because it gives a negative perception to casual players.

[Borg]

" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

This would be a very elegant fix that stays true to the lore.

You're kidding, right? More and more equipment is going to be added to the game over time. Even now, who cares if the Wizard is restricted to other school's equipment? So, no War school armor pieces... but he still gets the torso piece that is attuned to his element (Leviathan Scale is coming, and I'm guessing Earth will also get a chest piece as well at some point), plus one of the arcane Cloaks... and then any of the enchantments that add armor.... What do you gain? He has several wands in school, and probably doesn't need any others. What rings does a Wizard usually use that isn't in school? Weapons? OK... so he can't use Eagleclaw Boots... what a loss. If absolutely needed, he can Tanglevine himself. Want a Regen Belt? Use Regrowth instead. There are plenty of alternatives that give equivalent effects for the lack of the few pieces of equipment to which he might actually care about losing access.

Hi DaveW,

Of course the Wizard could use Enchantment alternatives for the equipment he's lost ( Regrowth, Rhino Hide, Force Orb, Force Sword etc) but there are a few important differences you're overlooking here imo.

1/ all this equipment is put on by the Battleforge, costing the Wizard only 1 QA to set up and then let the BF do the equipping while he keeps his A's & QA's doing his business.

2/ using enchantment alternatives for this equipment would mean the Wizard has to tap into his own QA's rather than relying on the extra action gained by the Battleforge meaning his Tanking strategy just won't be as effective by going from 3 actions to just 2 actions per round.

3/ removing the 3 leathers equals 3 less potential armor, any which way you look at this. Rhino Hide is not an "alternative" in the strictest sense since it's available to him now as well. It can be played on top of the leathers for a total of 5 armor. Removing the leathers would thus be a "net loss" of 3 possible armour for the Wizard.

4/ you don't seem to think highly of spells like Veteran's Belt and Eagleclaw Boots but imo not having access to these spells would have a serious impact on how he's played - without the Boots he's open to all kinds of push and pull effects and tricks ... and without the Belt, well ... I thought that one was obvious.

5/ and a minor but nevertheless important aspect imo, it's much easier to get rid of Corrode counters when your armour is provided by equipment ( by just changing or disabling it ) than when your armour is provided by an enchantment making Corrode markers somewhat "stickier" as well.

[Mystery]

I haven't lost to a Wizard somewhat since ages, and the last won I didnt win was the won against Charmyna. And even more with my other mages competetive book, without sounding offensive 90% of all decks I see I can see have large development potential and quite same I would consider even causual decks. And with Vet-Belt chitin and so on Wizard.

We all lack mileage on games. Im currently sitting in middle of nowhere and have almost no internet acess but there will be a long post about latest tournament experiences, Decks, Startegy and so on coming. Including the lastest discussions on epic mage wand, wizard and so on.

It is hard for me to say Wizard is overpowered if I have beaten all wizards lately. It is probably necessary that i face those extremly good tank wizard books with all my highly competetive books against equally skilled players to get anything out of it.

I can tell you how hard my decissions of that defense deck wizard are, and independent how you do it there will be a weakness somewhere, question is if you know it when you play against it.

[iNano78]

I haven't lost to a Wizard somewhat since ages, and the last won I didnt win was the won against Charmyna. And even more with my other mages competetive book, without sounding offensive 90% of all decks I see I can see have large development potential and quite same I would consider even causual decks. And with Vet-Belt chitin and so on Wizard.

We all lack mileage on games. Im currently sitting in middle of nowhere and have almost no internet acess but there will be a long post about latest tournament experiences, Decks, Startegy and so on coming. Including the lastest discussions on epic mage wand, wizard and so on.

It is hard for me to say Wizard is overpowered if I have beaten all wizards lately. It is probably necessary that i face those extremly good tank wizard books with all my highly competetive books against equally skilled players to get anything out of it.

I can tell you how hard my decissions of that defense deck wizard are, and independent how you do it there will be a weakness somewhere, question is if you know it when you play against it.

A superior Mage Wars player can still beat an inferior player, regardless of the mages they choose.  I'm sure if you ran a Malakai Priest, you could beat me playing a Wizard.  This is analogous to Tim Seitz playing A Few Acres of Snow; he still had something like a 90% win record as the French despite the fact that the "Halifax Hammer" was a broken strategy "guaranteeing" an English victory (and Tim had a 100% record as the English, but he was also the best player on the planet and could even beat people trying (unsuccessfully) to use the Halifax Hammer against him).  But that was a different situation in a different game.  In A Few Acres of Snow, an expert player could indeed guarantee a win as the English.  In Mage Wars, a Wizard has inherent advantages against a non-Wizard.  That doesn't mean it can guarantee a win.  An expert player can beat an inferior player.  It's like an expert chess player taking a 3-pawn handicap against an amateur and still beating him in 20 moves.  The handicap can be overcome.  That doesn't mean the game isn't imbalanced. 

I think this is becoming a political argument. Republicans can't understand how someone could support a Democrat, and a Democrat can't understand how someone could support a Republican.  "Wizard isn't OP" people don't see what seems to be obvious to "Wizard is obviously OP" people.  It seems to be subjective, even though both sides believe wholeheartedly that it is objective.  But to me, it really says something when even new players look at the Wizard's ability card and say things like "the Wizard is obviously the strongest because his abilities are really good and he has no drawbacks, whereas all the other mages have weaker and/or conditional abilities that lock you into a particular predictable strategy and come with various drawbacks."

[Borg]

So while this proposed "fix" is thematic and does something to make Wizards at least slightly less tanky by adding a drawback, I'm inclined to agree with DaveW that it may not do enough. Perhaps if this "fix" were approved, it might be accompanied by other "fixes"

Hi iNano,

I agree this wouldn't be enough.
I was just making a suggestion that could possible be added to a lot of other suggestions.

Like many of us, I've read a lot of posts about this subject through the years and I've seen many good suggestions on how to balance him.

If you'd ask me however, this is what I would currently suggest.

Training :
- Arcane plus one Elemental school of Choice
- Triple cost for Nature spells
- Can only use equipment from schools he's trained in

Voltaric Shield : no change ( he'll need this now )

Arcane Zap : 2 mana - Range 1/1 - 2 dice - ( NO ethereal )

The Wizard Tower and Wands are another discussion.

[Halewijn]

One problem is that when for example, a swarm beastmaster faces an armor wizard, he will have almost 0% chance to win unless the wizard makes some ridiculous mistakes or the dice are out of proportion.

Round 1:
Beastmaster: lair and something (spending most of his mana)
Wizard: battleforge and something

From this moment on, the wizard can very quickly armor up. The beastmaster will nor have the mana, nor the actions to effectively reduce this armor. His small creatures will not be able to deal any damage at all. The wizard is basically invulnerable and can start to use all his innate strengths to easily deal with everything the beastmaster trows at him.

Of course you can argument that the beastmaster should not have cast a lair in round 1 and go for the attack (maybe to kill the battleforge). Against that argument I say:
1) The deck was not designed to rush, and will probably do a horrible job at it.
2) A "mistake" like that should not have to mean a loss in round 2.
3) EVEN if he is able to be a treath, the wizard will start to use his shield. Combined with the armor it will be enough to survive the "weak" beastmaster rush.