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Author Topic: Is the arena wizard still OP?  (Read 75666 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #120 on: June 17, 2016, 10:48:26 PM »
I'm sorry Sailor, but you've missed the point about what I was saying.

Just for clarification, my idea is about what the actual problem is and nothing about playing the wizard "as intended." I think however you want to play the wizard is playing him "as intended". I don't think the wizard is a problem so much as a symptom of the actual problem. That problem being 4 + hr matches that only conclude when one player dies of boredom instead of damage.

That being said, Sailor did vaguely allude to what I think the solution is/where the real issue that encourages the problem lies. That issue is the spellbinding wands, and Mage Wand in particular. I'll go into more detail once I've had time to gather thoughts and data on it, but the short of it is that I think that the 4 hr, drawn out games are strictly dependent upon how many mage wands are brought into a fight. This type of build can be done with multiple mages, not just the wizard, and is TERRIBLY dull to watch, play with, and play against. Ultimately, I propose that the spellbinding wands (Mage Wand for sure, the rest I'm fairly indifferent about) should also have the Epic trait.

Just clarifying my idea and separating it from that listed above.

I didn't think any of what I said had contradicted anything that you said. To be clear, I thought we had the same understanding of what has been happening with the wizard, and what you were saying simply explained more comprehensively why and how it was happening. But there are two things that I would like to point out here that I now realize that you are probably overlooking.

1. While technically any mage can play the boring high armor plus multiple wands game, ultimately the wizard and the druid can play it for the lowest cost in spellbook points. The druid because of her corrosive orchid and water training (acid balls, dissolves) and the wizard because of his wizard tower and training in arcane and sometimes water.

2. While what has happened to the wizard is probably only a symptom of the actual problem with spellbind, it still has happened to the wizard in particular. Maybe that's because charmyna decided to do it with the water wizard first, even though it is just as possible to pull it off with another mage, and it just never occurred to most of us to try it with another mage. Regardless, it is the diversity of wizard spellbooks and the public perception of wizards that has suffered for it, far more than that of any other mage. And as I've pointed out before, a lot of people might not even realize the problem in the first place.

The majority of wizard spellbooks I remember having ever seen anyone play were variations of four particular strategies that use high armor and multiple wands: Telepit, Watergate, Blasting Banker, and attack spell wizard tower rush. We need more original wizard spellbooks to demonstrate how fun and interesting the wizard can actually be.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 06:43:53 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Biblofilter

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2016, 02:16:11 AM »
When i look a the Wizard abilities (Voltaric Shield and Arcane Zap) and compare them to say the Johktari Beastmaster (Wounded Prey, Sprinting and Archery Skill) it seems obvious to me that Wizard got the better deal.

Abilities that can only be used in some situations like Wounded Prey seems clearly inferior to something like Voltaric Shield.

On top of that Wizard has more channeling and cheaper spellbook creation.

So yes Wizard is stronger than Johktari Beastmaster.

I have seen a couple of post were people have written something like "its easy enough to build a counter to Wizard, but in the long run its boring"

I don´t believe it to be true. There is no real good counter to Wizard - his way to versatile for that. Yes you can build a counter to tank Wizard/Mage like Mystery has done with various DoT builds but its not the same as vs Warlocks it be a good counter to bring Dragonscale Hauberk+Dispel.

Some of the Wizards powers come from the "necessary" spells like Dispel, Seeking Dispel, Nullify and Enchantment Transfusion.

One easy counter to Wizard could be to let all mages being trained in arcane level 1 spells, or something a long those lines.

Wizard is one of the best available mages (if not the best) and the better Dispel becomes (by releasing more nasty enchantments) and releasing something like Enchantment Transfusion which makes multiple Seeking Dispels good.

Some of the new cards really help: Remove Curse - level 1 holy - remove as many revealed curse enchanments from the target as you wish, paying the total mana cost (casting and reveal) for each one. Then gain 2 mana.

Other new cards makes matters "worse" making Dispel/Seeking Dispel/Nullify better, more needed.

@Sharkbait yes Magewands makes games go on longer - even forever. I am a big mage wand fan, the things you can do. Still it would be a small stab to Wizard as it is arcane level 2.

I don´t believe that Wizard is overpowered, because i believe Necromancer (no counters, awesome abilities) and Druid (awesome) are at least as good. Nerfing/banning Wizard would just let the hate pass on to one of those, i think.
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SharkBait

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2016, 10:03:44 AM »
@Sharkbait yes Magewands makes games go on longer - even forever. I am a big mage wand fan, the things you can do. Still it would be a small stab to Wizard as it is arcane level 2.

I don´t believe that Wizard is overpowered, because i believe Necromancer (no counters, awesome abilities) and Druid (awesome) are at least as good. Nerfing/banning Wizard would just let the hate pass on to one of those, i think.

I tend to be in the same school of thought about the wizard. That's another reason I hadn't really jumped into this thread much. However, since the mage wand can extend the game forever, at the highest level of play you have to run 4 dissolve effects to be rid of those wands to even give  a chance of the tank mage running out of dispel and dissolve resources. When those resources are infinite, there is far less skill to use those resources than when they're finite and knowing how to use them properly.

Essentially, I'd like to skip the 2 hrs of boring undo gameplay that can literally go on forever until someone gets rid of every mage wand and limit the wand to just 1. It makes it take actual skill to protect it instead of casting a new one, it doesn't require EVERYONE to  take 4+ dissolves, and generally allows more freedom and fun gameplay to emerge. It's also not mage specific
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RomeoXero

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #123 on: June 18, 2016, 10:55:40 AM »
The necromancers main "he's broken" trait comes mainly from zombies being rediculously hard to kill due to the resilient trait. Poison immunity sucks yeah but if his creatures died as easily as everyone elses it wouldn't be a big issue. The fact is that anyone can use zombie brutes goth, even wizards. The druid on the other hand is very pocketed in the nature school, and she already pays triple for 2 schools! She only gets one tree bond, so a lucky force hammer or fireball, or a will planned conquer puts her I iredeemably behind the stick as her marker goes away. Neither of these mages are anywhere near as potentially unassailable as the wizard, and neither of them have the unfettered access to the arcane spells that everyone needs. They aren't anywhere near as bad as the wizard is.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #124 on: June 18, 2016, 12:22:35 PM »
The necromancers main "he's broken" trait comes mainly from zombies being rediculously hard to kill due to the resilient trait. Poison immunity sucks yeah but if his creatures died as easily as everyone elses it wouldn't be a big issue. The fact is that anyone can use zombie brutes goth, even wizards. The druid on the other hand is very pocketed in the nature school, and she already pays triple for 2 schools! She only gets one tree bond, so a lucky force hammer or fireball, or a will planned conquer puts her I iredeemably behind the stick as her marker goes away. Neither of these mages are anywhere near as potentially unassailable as the wizard, and neither of them have the unfettered access to the arcane spells that everyone needs. They aren't anywhere near as bad as the wizard is.

I agree in general, but I also fear that a heavily armoured Necromancer would be tough to beat given DoT strategies don't work on him. And he has access to good anti-swarm (Idol) and can still heal through Regen spells (although Deathlock is usually a better strategy). Honestly, I've found Skelly Necros tougher than Zombie Necros, partly because they're immune to Idol + Deathlock and can still Reconstruct.
(Yes, Zombies are also immune and Brute is a brute, but Zombies can't reconstruct... yet...)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 03:27:08 PM by iNano78 »
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #125 on: June 18, 2016, 01:49:59 PM »
I just realized that the warlord could probably do this too with piercing strike on helm of command...


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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #126 on: June 18, 2016, 05:39:30 PM »
The necromancers main "he's broken" trait comes mainly from zombies being rediculously hard to kill due to the resilient trait. Poison immunity sucks yeah but if his creatures died as easily as everyone elses it wouldn't be a big issue. The fact is that anyone can use zombie brutes goth, even wizards. The druid on the other hand is very pocketed in the nature school, and she already pays triple for 2 schools! She only gets one tree bond, so a lucky force hammer or fireball, or a will planned conquer puts her I iredeemably behind the stick as her marker goes away. Neither of these mages are anywhere near as potentially unassailable as the wizard, and neither of them have the unfettered access to the arcane spells that everyone needs. They aren't anywhere near as bad as the wizard is.

If the zombie brutes was easy to kill year id agree the Necromancer wasnt "OP" - but they are exactly that.
A Wizard could take 4 zombie brutes i guess but i would be 24 spellpoints - so his not really ahead of the Necromancer there.

4 Zombie Brute
4 Dispels
4 Nullify
4 Seeking Dispel

would be 36 spellbook points for both Necromancer and the Wizard.

normally Necromancer doesn't need as many dispels because of his poison immune trait.

Killing the Druids tree isn't always easy. But yes its a really good counter.
Druid still have awesome abilities and an spellbook creation thats almost on par with Wizards.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2016, 06:05:43 PM »
Exactly right. My point is that the workarounds for necro and did both already exist, and the power they hold is paid for in spades by the druid with two trip schools and the necromancers only have one in school and paying triple for holy sucks, that's where the most effective healing is. So though they are top tier mages the wizard can still pack answers for both of them without abnormal detriment. And to me that's just lame
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #128 on: June 19, 2016, 07:42:37 AM »
Wizard is way more universal than necro or druid. Those two are very strong but can still fight on a fair level against forcemaster or themselves. I would not call them OP just cause they are good.

I think that not only the Wizard is too strong by his abilities, some other mages are too weak by their abilities. Johktari and Priest the worst. Both only channel 9 (that is always bad. Only the beastmaster and dwarf warlord seem to run smooth without 10) and holy avanger and wounded prey are both very situational. Also both pay triple for other schools. I would call them underpowered.

If the Wizard is meant to be a universal trickster, he should not be a specialist as well. As a Universalist with access to all schools without paying triple he should pay double for really all. That would mean also double for arcane.

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #129 on: June 19, 2016, 08:36:07 AM »
I think turning the Wizard into a "trickster" is impossible st this point without making a completely new Mage. His abilities are (1) cheap access to spells, (2) a built-in Ethereal ranged attack and (3) built-in damage negation. This makes him predisposed to (1) having an unprecedented flexible toolbox of spells including answers to opponent strategies, (2) unrelenting firepower (Hawkeye gives him a 4-dice attack that he's never without that crushes Incorporeal objects and can target flying creatures and ignore guards; a choice of Elemental school means an abundance of his choice of attack spells) and (3) resilient defense with the ability to use defences and armour as normal plus ignore damage that does manage to get through. All this with no triple cost to rein him in to a focused strategy, so while there are a lot of mana denial and "trickster" spells in the arcane school. The Wizard has no incentive nor need to use them. Instead, he can go all-out control/undo and/or all-out attack and/or all-out defence/tank as well as or better than his opponent.

Compare to other mages, whose ability cards dictate (to some degree) what they're best at:
- Straywood: easily best at summoning Level 1 creatures (and not bad at melee); not good at attack spells
- Priestess: best at healing and good at just staying alive; not good at DoT and susceptible to Poison Blood/Idol
- Arraxian Crown Warlock: designed for "buddy"; great at curses and fire spells; struggles at healing, and rather predictable (e.g. countering fire and curses is how to deal with him).
- Forcemaster: terrible at creatures (eg limited to buddy or solo); doesn't have much diversity within in-school spells, so tends to have a smaller spell book due to requiring a lot of out-of-school spells
- Bloodwave Warlord: good at Command Incantations and needs to use his built-in commands well on several creatures or else he's basically a Mage with nothing but handicaps (triple arcane, none of his abilities directly help him win); a Wizard makes a better Warlord
- Priest: abilities are so specific that he's pretty Miche required to have a strong non-legendary holy creature plus a bunch of other creatures to try to get the former to "avenge"; and he needs to use attacks that deal Light damage, which means as many Staff of Asyra as he can afford. If you aren't doing these things, you should play a different Mage.
- Johktari Beastmaster: good at getting her creatures to kill enemy creatures... so only "good" if your opponent cooperates. Katarah finally lets her run'n'gun... but it's still worse than Arcane Zap. In other words, a Wizard is a better Johktari Beastmaster.
- Necromancer: immune to most DoT, and this gets a lot out of Arena-wide DoT; pretty much must use Undead creatures, which means he can't buff his creatures very much (since most buffs need a Living target).
- Druid: Must use plants/vines. Pays triple for 2 Schools. Kill her tree and she goes from very strong to very weak.
- Anvil Throne Warlord: good with Equipment; good with Commands (see other Warlord). Thus, he wants to Battle Forge and/or Buddy, and that's about it.
- Adremelech Warlock: All her abilities are about curses, fire and demons... so she needs to Ignite things, summon Demons, and get at least a curse or two out there. She could speciallize in one of these three more than the others (and there's some choice as to which you choose) but it's one (or more) of these 3. Otherwise, another Mage might be better.

Tl/dr: all non-wizards are forced into one of a few strategies; if you play a Mage and don't use those strategies, then you'd be better off with a different Mage. That is, except the Wizard. He can do any strategy, because his anilities (1) let him do so cheaply, (2) give him an advantage on offense, and (3) give him an advantage on defence. No need for "trickery." Thus, it's too late to figure out how to turn him into a "trickster" unless you give him a completely different ability card.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 09:33:42 AM by iNano78 »
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #130 on: June 19, 2016, 09:09:09 AM »
I would like to bring up that the Wizard as we know him is not your basic Wizard but a type of Wizard.

A Basic Wizard ( as I see it ) is a Mage who's trained in the Arcane school, nothing else, just like all Beastmasters are trained in Nature.
Besides this standard Arcane training, which defines him as a Wizard, he ( or she ) however will also specialise in another aspect of the game, making that Wizard a certain type of Wizard.

Other possible Wizards could include for example :
- Enchantress : Wizard, trained in Arcane and Enchantments
- Swordmage : Wizard, trained in Arcane and War school
etc

The Wizard as we know him is actually an Elemental Wizard, a Wizard trained in Arcane and an Element of choice.
The problem I see however is that his play is more that of a Swordmage, a Wizard who's trained in Arcane and War.
The fact that he has such easy access to all the war equipment makes him play out of character and I'm convinced that was not as intended.

Just look at his ability card for proof of that.
He's been given the Voltaric Shield ability for a reason.
This was supposed to be an Elemental Wizard like we know from D&D.
You know, Low Strength, low Armor, high intelligence, powerful attack spells with an added ability to give him some magical armor because he might need it.
However, since he's played as a Tank, the Wizard doesn't need his Voltaric Shield at all, it just makes him even harder to hit.

So I think that to make the Elemental Wizard "play as intended" his Training section should also contain

" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

So he still would have access to all the Arcane staples like Mage wand, Rings, Suppression Cloak, as well as the Elemental Wand and Elemental Cloak but this would mean all Wizards would now have to play without Leather Gloves/Boots/Chausses, Reflex Boots and Veteran's Belt, Regeneration Belt to name a few.
These are exactly the cards which make him play out of character imo and who don't belong in his arsenal.
(They certainly don't belong to the Wizard in a lot of other fantasy games where armour gives a penalty when casting spells or is simply outright forbidden to Wizard types ... )

Nevertheless, the Fire Wizard would still have access to a Dragonscale Hauberk while an Air Wizard would have the choice between a Wind Wyvern Hide and a Storm Drake Hide and all would have access to the Elemental Cloak but I'm sure you would see different strategies come to the forefront as they all would have to search for alternative ways to prevent damage. The Wizard would likely be played more like he was meant to be played and not as a Tank.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 09:20:26 AM by Borg »
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #131 on: June 19, 2016, 11:18:45 AM »
" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

This would be a very elegant fix that stays true to the lore.


It would also have a reasonably impact to the rock wizard.
No more resilience from acid balls ( Chitin Armor) , and no more Iron Mountain Rock Steel Plutonium durability combining Veterans Belt, high armor and voltaric shield (possibly with aegis 1).

And it would actually be possible to poke the wizard with a 3 or 4 dice creature to trigger voltaric without that stupid belt. And i remember somebody from AW advising this trick a long time ago in a thread about how to handle voltaric shield.

Even more so it would less the forge less useful for him since the 3 leathers (gloves, boots, pants) are no longer available to him.


Is it enough? not sure... But its definitely not too much.

Sailor Vulcan

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Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2016, 11:26:53 AM »
I would like to bring up that the Wizard as we know him is not your basic Wizard but a type of Wizard.

A Basic Wizard ( as I see it ) is a Mage who's trained in the Arcane school, nothing else, just like all Beastmasters are trained in Nature.
Besides this standard Arcane training, which defines him as a Wizard, he ( or she ) however will also specialise in another aspect of the game, making that Wizard a certain type of Wizard.

Other possible Wizards could include for example :
- Enchantress : Wizard, trained in Arcane and Enchantments
- Swordmage : Wizard, trained in Arcane and War school
etc

The Wizard as we know him is actually an Elemental Wizard, a Wizard trained in Arcane and an Element of choice.
The problem I see however is that his play is more that of a Swordmage, a Wizard who's trained in Arcane and War.
The fact that he has such easy access to all the war equipment makes him play out of character and I'm convinced that was not as intended.

Just look at his ability card for proof of that.
He's been given the Voltaric Shield ability for a reason.
This was supposed to be an Elemental Wizard like we know from D&D.
You know, Low Strength, low Armor, high intelligence, powerful attack spells with an added ability to give him some magical armor because he might need it.
However, since he's played as a Tank, the Wizard doesn't need his Voltaric Shield at all, it just makes him even harder to hit.

So I think that to make the Elemental Wizard "play as intended" his Training section should also contain

" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

So he still would have access to all the Arcane staples like Mage wand, Rings, Suppression Cloak, as well as the Elemental Wand and Elemental Cloak but this would mean all Wizards would now have to play without Leather Gloves/Boots/Chausses, Reflex Boots and Veteran's Belt, Regeneration Belt to name a few.
These are exactly the cards which make him play out of character imo and who don't belong in his arsenal.
(They certainly don't belong to the Wizard in a lot of other fantasy games where armour gives a penalty when casting spells or is simply outright forbidden to Wizard types ... )

Nevertheless, the Fire Wizard would still have access to a Dragonscale Hauberk while an Air Wizard would have the choice between a Wind Wyvern Hide and a Storm Drake Hide and all would have access to the Elemental Cloak but I'm sure you would see different strategies come to the forefront as they all would have to search for alternative ways to prevent damage. The Wizard would likely be played more like he was meant to be played and not as a Tank.

Hmm. Maybe. Don't think the problem is that wizard can tank at all, it's really more of the way he tanks when people use him to tank. Wizard should be a bit more fragile. It should be easier to keep his armor low so he actually has a need for voltaric shield. And this way he actually has more reason to use gargoyle sentry if he does end up wanting to tank. Gargoyle can absorb more of the damage so that it doesn't hurt the wizard himself so much.

I'm not sure if you saw the part of this discussion where sharkbait and I were discussing how the lack of sufficient counters to spellbind besides spellbind might be the main issue here that's causing all these other problems, rather than something inherent to the wizard himself.

Maybe if mage wand elemental wand and wizard tower got epic, then the wizard wouldn't be able to spam acid ball and dissolve indefinitely, so his opponents would not become forever behind on the armor/armor removal game. Then the wizard wouldn't be able to replace his armor so much more easily than his opponents replace theirs, so the wizard would actually need to rely on voltaric shield more. Using the shield more would get rid of the unfair mana advantage he gets when he tries tanking, which means he would have to rely more on tricks manipulation and control to win, rather than overwhelming the enemy with super-efficient brute force made possible by huge mana and action advantage.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 11:28:51 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #133 on: June 19, 2016, 10:11:43 PM »
" Can only use Equipment from schools he's trained in "

This would be a very elegant fix that stays true to the lore.

You're kidding, right? More and more equipment is going to be added to the game over time. Even now, who cares if the Wizard is restricted to other school's equipment? So, no War school armor pieces... but he still gets the torso piece that is attuned to his element (Leviathan Scale is coming, and I'm guessing Earth will also get a chest piece as well at some point), plus one of the arcane Cloaks... and then any of the enchantments that add armor.... What do you gain? He has several wands in school, and probably doesn't need any others. What rings does a Wizard usually use that isn't in school? Weapons? OK... so he can't use Eagleclaw Boots... what a loss. If absolutely needed, he can Tanglevine himself. Want a Regen Belt? Use Regrowth instead. There are plenty of alternatives that give equivalent effects for the lack of the few pieces of equipment to which he might actually care about losing access.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #134 on: June 19, 2016, 10:15:40 PM »
The necromancers main "he's broken" trait comes mainly from zombies being rediculously hard to kill due to the resilient trait. Poison immunity sucks yeah but if his creatures died as easily as everyone elses it wouldn't be a big issue. The fact is that anyone can use zombie brutes goth, even wizards.

Someone showed four Brutes plus Arcane staples as being equal spellbook points. I am sure that the Necromancer will have plenty of other spellbook points dedicated to Zombies where the Wizard would pay double and not the Necro.
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