Is the arena wizard still OP?

[RomeoXero]

Temple of light was free to fire and hands of bim shala wasn't unique. She fired 5 dice stun lasers for free every turn as as a result. The forcemaster had a double strike attack that with battle fury let her swing 18 dice plus three with galvitar since battlefury at the time counted as a new attack and mellee +X would apply once again. Those got fixed pretty handily and pretty fast. Though it was not done flippantly. I get what the playtesters are saying,  guys i really do, it just seems off to me that the most common complaint is the one that's recieved the least (visible) attention. And by visible i mean anyone, saying anything that's not "we're looking at it". What are you looking at? Have any ideas as to what might help? Can WE help (the gen pop players)? Are ANY of the points we've stated even in the running for fixes? Seems like every time we turn around there's new toys and such for the wizard to play with making the gap even larger than it was before. I know you can't tell us today that it will be fixed tomorrow, but come on give us something! Its making me go sour on the game that i love. And That's not cool.

[jacksmack]

Change voltaric shield to absorb only 1 damage but cost only 1 mana.

Change arcane zap to 0-0.

Opposite elemental school costs tripple.

There you go. Still a VERY playable wizard but he can actually die now.

[Brian VanAlstyne]

I think the changes I'd make are Arcane Zap is no longer etheral and 0-0 or 1-1 range, not both. Triple for opposite element (Fire/Water, Air/Earth) and here's the biggest ones to me; no free change on Wizard's Tower spell AND does not come in ready. I actually feel the same way here about the Nature conjurations as well, if a creature can't come in active, neither should an attacking conjuration. Akiro's Hammer and Balista take at least 2 rounds, wizards tower should have to have at least 1 mana on it to cast a spell.

[Halewijn]

I think the changes I'd make are Arcane Zap is no longer etheral and 0-0 or 1-1 range, not both. Triple for opposite element (Fire/Water, Air/Earth) and here's the biggest ones to me; no free change on Wizard's Tower spell AND does not come in ready. I actually feel the same way here about the Nature conjurations as well, if a creature can't come in active, neither should an attacking conjuration. Akiro's Hammer and Balista take at least 2 rounds, wizards tower should have to have at least 1 mana on it to cast a spell.

I agree on most of it but personally, I would allow the Wizard to change the spell for free every round (let it keep the flexibility) but it should actually use the attack spell and put it in the discard pile. Even if a water wizard would need to pay triple for fire, it could still use one fireball/flameblast dozens of times without any issue.

[zot]

further, you need to understand that not everyone believes the wizard is op, despite the feedback here. I do not believe the wizard is op and I know a lot of others who feel the same. these are tournament caliber players too. is the wizard powerful, sure. he is top tier mage along with a few others. now, I will not get pulled into the circular argument here and will stop responding to this thread after this post.

but the aw folks do take the feedback here very seriously, and are indeed looking at many ways to improve the experience for everyone. thus, they are reviewing the wizard. they will be testing the fixes they are coming up with. that takes time. errata frustrates players. so they try hard to limit it, and make sure it is needed, rare, targeted and successful if implemented. regardless of any fix that gets implemented(if any), not everyone will be happy with it. Not far enough, or too much most likely.

the aw folks also want to be responsive to the player base too. be aware the feedback here is not the entirety of the feedback they get. it is merely one source. so your opinions while shared with some others is just part of a much larger audience.

the timeline previously posted is a very good list of how things have gone.

please note also that while I am a playtester, I am in no way representing aw with this reply. the only things I know for facts are that aw values and takes seriously feedback from all sources (not just this site). that they want everyone to have a great time playing an awesome game. that they are in fact reviewing the wizard, and testers will be testing various fixes. all else is my personal opinion.

I do believe wizard tower has to be fixed and that is on the list of things being reviewed too. I was not in the playtest group for that set.

I hope this helps you feel that your concerns are taken seriously and are being investigated. so at a later time  some fix does come out, you will know that aw put a lot of time and effort into testing many options for an extended time.

[Puddnhead]

There have been a great many suggestions about what to do with the Wizard.  I've made some myself as well.  This is all very good information and helpful to making a decision.

I do know that the design team is listening and taking these ideas to try and not only balance the current game, but the future game as well and that is something that many of us who aren't privy to what's coming cannot really take into account in our proposed fixes.  Both the Wizard and his Tower are under the microscope.

I can also assure you that it won't be a vote to decide what the fix is.  None of us are designers or employees.  Arcane Wonders is not bound by any agreement to tell us what their current thoughts are on the fix.  However, they have been forthright with information on several occasions.  No one is trying to destroy the game we love.

I understand the desire for balance, especially in league and tournament play.  In other situations, I would suggest that if the Wizard is making you sour tell the offending PLAYER to play something else.  The Wizard doesn't choose you...you choose the Wizard.

[bigfatchef]

I understand the desire for balance, especially in league and tournament play.  In other situations, I would suggest that if the Wizard is making you sour tell the offending PLAYER to play something else.  The Wizard doesn't choose you...you choose the Wizard.

From what I see that is what is happening. I know enough people who don't play wizard any more cause it feels like cheating. There are tournaments with edited rules around it (thunderdome g, admw). After years of waiting players arrange with the situation by personal errata.
It is good to here that wizard is under the microscope, but the serious question here is how long does it take. Years have passed! Even if it would maybe not be the best errata there could be, all proposed changes would be better than testing ideas some more years. I really ask myself how hard it is.
On the other hand making him a little underpowered could flatten out his advantage until now and melee him the creative players choice

[Kharhaz]

TL;DR?
The determining factor is whether or not his advantages create an unfair advantage; not whether he is or isn't more powerful. I think the wizard is ahead of the game / would like to see a change to his mage card.



Is the wizard "overpowered"?

Yes, when the wizard sits down, to a non-mirror match, at the beginning of the game he has statistically better odds of wining that match.

The real question, and it has been since at least 2013 when I first entered these conversations about this topic, has always been:

"Is it such a huge advantage that it makes the game unplayable and/or gives him an UNFAIR advantage?"

Well that's what we call a Dez Bryant catch.

If you look at all the mages and say "the wizard is totally balanced" you don't understand how this game works. Sorry if that offends but its not even a defendable position. Voltaric shield, arcane zap, and no triple cost? Yes in the scope of the original set it's a more even playing field; in 2016 its not even a contest. Top-tier is one thing but he is the best mage to choose from any lens outside a specific book vs book scenario. Mage Wars is a game about building one book to battle a number of different books, which he does better than anyone else.

It was a catch.

[exid]

As I've said time and time again, he's supposed to be a trickster and master manipulator, not a brute force Mage.

I like this definition.
a mage that like his inteligence and his closed library should pay tripple for war and nature!

[iNano78]

As I've said time and time again, he's supposed to be a trickster and master manipulator, not a brute force Mage.

I like this definition.
a mage that like his inteligence and his closed library should pay tripple for war and nature!

Or thinking thematically of a "wizard" from pretty much any RPG (pen & paper or video game), why not something that makes him more inclined to wear lighter armour, like:
"Wizard pays triple for non-Arcane Equipment spells."

This way, he's more dependent on Enchantments (and his Voltaric Shield of course) for Armor, and less likely to go with Battle Forge (and if you make him pay triple for War as well, then he'll really think twice about a Forge).  This means a big penalty for a Veteran's Belt-based turtle/tank Wizard... which doesn't make sense thematically anyway.  He still has some good equipment options in-school - for example, a choice of 3 Rod/Staff weapons + Dispel Wand + Mage Wand, 3 cloaks (Suppression Cloak or Elemental Cloak or the cloak from Academy), Sistarran Robes, 2 mana amulets, several rings including Enchanters, etc.  The biggest change would probably be that Dragonscale Hauberk and other elemental-based chestpieces would cost 3 sbp, even if he chooses that elemental school (!)... but 3 sbp isn't really a lot to pay (I've always felt they should have cost 2 sbp instead of 1).  Oh, and Elemental Wand would cost him triple... which is weird, but probably less weird than a Wizard sporting all the heaviest armours in the game.  Besides, he could still exclusively use Mordok's Tome for cheap, which is sort of similar (minus the Spellbind trait).  In other words, it really makes him want to focus on Enchantments, Incantations and either hard-casting or Wizard's Tower'ing his attack spells.

*edit*
Might have to be "triple for out-of-school Equipment" since otherwise it punishes using Fireshaper Ring, Lightning Ring, Gale Force Ring, Staff of Storms, etc., which would be weird and counter-productive.  But that puts Dragonscale Hauberk and other in-school Elemental chestpieces back to being cheap.

Hmmm... No chance of errata'ing all chestpieces with +2 Armor to level 2 (or higher), eh?

[Sailor Vulcan]

As I've said time and time again, he's supposed to be a trickster and master manipulator, not a brute force Mage.

I like this definition.
a mage that like his inteligence and his closed library should pay tripple for war and nature!

Or thinking thematically of a "wizard" from pretty much any RPG (pen & paper or video game), why not something that makes him more inclined to wear lighter armour, like:
"Wizard pays triple for non-Arcane Equipment spells."

This way, he's more dependent on Enchantments (and his Voltaric Shield of course) for Armor, and less likely to go with Battle Forge (and if you make him pay triple for War as well, then he'll really think twice about a Forge).  This means a big penalty for a Veteran's Belt-based turtle/tank Wizard... which doesn't make sense thematically anyway.  He still has some good equipment options in-school - for example, a choice of 3 Rod/Staff weapons + Dispel Wand + Mage Wand, 3 cloaks (Suppression Cloak or Elemental Cloak or the cloak from Academy), Sistarran Robes, 2 mana amulets, several rings including Enchanters, etc.  The biggest thing would be that Dragonscale Hauberk and other elemental-based chestpieces would cost 3 sbp, even if he chooses that elemental school (!)... but 3 sbp isn't really a lot to pay (I've always felt they should have cost 2 sbp instead of 1).  Oh, and Elemental Wand would cost him triple... which is weird, but probably less weird than a Wizard sporting all the heaviest armours in the game.  Besides, he could still exclusively use Mordok's Tome for cheap, which is sort of similar (minus the Spellbind trait).  In other words, it really makes him want to focus on Enchantments, Incantations and either hard-casting or Wizard's Tower'ing his attack spells.

That seems a bit over the top. I originally thought that viable alternatives to dispel and teleport for other mages, combined with fixing the tower might be enough. But I'm not so sure now. Maybe should make wizard pay triple for something, but I'm not sure what. He generally doesn't tend to use war spells much, and it wouldn't really make sense for him to pay triple for nature when he understands nature well enough to do experiments on it. Making him pay triple for opposing elemental school doesn't make much sense either. I suppose one could sort of argue that holy and dark are less "rational" and therefore arcane should be opposed to it, except that in the world of etheria the gods actually do exist and this can be demonstrated experimentally. One of them even lives on the moon! So paying triple for holy or dark doesn't work either.

So thematically, what should the wizard's main strengths and weaknesses be?

I'm thinking he shouldn't be super muscular, since he spends so much time researching rather than working out, and he usually wins his battles with his magic, his wits and his strategy rather than his physical strength. He already has only 32 life, the same as a priestess and a force master, which makes sense because the forcemaster uses her mind to fight, and the priestess uses the help of her goddess to fight.

The wizard should not be iron man. He generally doesn't need to wear as much armor as other mages because of voltaric shield. He usually doesn't even use the voltaric shield until nearly the end of the game. So for most of the game one of his main abilities does not see use at all.

The wizard as he is now tends to overpower people through sheer inevitability. He overpowers them by building up a huge mana and action advantage for a relatively low cost compared to other mages. Most effects that raise channeling or mana are in school for him. Most effects that lower opponent channeling or mana are in school for him.

In short, he has a built in mana advantage over other mages. This built in mana advantage should not exist for no reason. I propose that the reason he has a mana advantage is to pay for the voltaric shield, just like the reason the warlock has such a high starting life is to pay for blood reaper. The fact that the wizard can put on so much armor so easily means he rarely has to use voltaric shield, so he has extra mana to spend on other things.

Maybe making him pay triple for out of school equipments is a good idea after all?

[iNano78]

Breaking this off as a separate post since you replied before the edit might have updated:

Actually, paying triple for out-of-school Equipment may not make much of a difference since he can still use Gator Toughness + Rhino Hide + Leather Gloves/Boots/Chausses for regular price, plus has a cheap Cloak + Sistarran Robes, which still adds up to a ton of Armor (e.g. "more than enough" - especially when combined with Voltaric Shield).  The only really expensive part sbp-wise would be Veteran's Belt, which might make it that he doesn't pack 2-3 of them anymore - or as many back-up Regen-based belts, for that matter, since they're all out-of-school.  The only cheap belt he would have access to is Leather Belt (promo). And he's unlikely to pack any other utility equipment (e.g. Eagleclaw Boots or Wand of Healing, etc), nor ones that grant Defences (e.g. Reflex Boots, Bracers, Dancing Scimitar).

...

Unless you added a clause like in Academy Priestess/Warlock where you even pay triple for Novice non-Arcane Equipment. (!)

[Puddnhead]

I have thought about banning the wizard from wearing any equipment that gives him +armor. then increase voltaric shield to block 4 damage since it's really a mana shield.  however I think this sort of change is too drastic and makes many cards obsolete.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Breaking this off as a separate post since you replied before the edit might have updated:

Actually, paying triple for out-of-school Equipment may not make much of a difference since he can still use Gator Toughness + Rhino Hide + Leather Gloves/Boots/Chausses for regular price, plus has a cheap Cloak + Sistarran Robes, which still adds up to a ton of Armor (e.g. "more than enough" - especially when combined with Voltaric Shield).  The only really expensive part sbp-wise would be Veteran's Belt, which might make it that he doesn't pack 2-3 of them anymore - or as many back-up Regen-based belts, for that matter, since they're all out-of-school.  The only cheap belt he would have access to is Leather Belt (promo). And he's unlikely to pack any other utility equipment (e.g. Eagleclaw Boots or Wand of Healing, etc), nor ones that grant Defences (e.g. Reflex Boots, Bracers, Dancing Scimitar).

...

Unless you added a clause like in Academy Priestess/Warlock where you even pay triple for Novice non-Arcane Equipment. (!)

Not non-arcane, doesn't make sense if he pays triple for elemental equipments even when he's trained in an element.

Not so sure about that. If the out of school equipments cost triple, wizard won't have as much incentive to use battle forge, so any armor he wants on himself he'll have to cast himself. And it will make regrowth belt and veteran's belt and eagleclaw boots and wand of healing etc cost triple.

@puddinghead not necessary to increase power of his voltaric shield. Just decrease his armor so he has more reason to use the shield more often. I suspect that with voltaric shield on he only needs to be wearing 3 armor at a time. Then again, if he pays triple for wand of healing, then he can probably put on more in case of corrodes.

[iNano78]

While skimming through Wizard spell books posted on the forums that include 2+ Veteran's Belts, I came across this *page* of really good discussion in the (in)famous "Blasting Banker" thread - which has apparently been viewed over 15,000 times! 

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13742.msg31646#msg31646

In summary, top-tier MW players Charmyna and Alexander West discuss how/why the Wizard is the strongest mage (perhaps with the Druid and the Straywood Beastmaster close behind, perhaps followed by the Priestess).  Meanwhile, relatively new players sshroom and Dr.Cornelius basically take it as a fact that Wizard is the most powerful (just by comparing ability cards - it doesn't take a genius to figure it out).  Meanwhile, Laddinfance teases Mr. West and silverclawgrizzly about [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC02]an upcoming creature that will make a better Blood Reaper for the Arraxian Crown Warlock[/mwcard] (because cards from Forged in Fire hadn't been spoiled yet).  Oh, and Laddinfance mentioned that balancing the mages was a priority and that he'd love to hear suggestions from the experts... all this a little over 2 years ago.  An interesting read at the very least.