First round initiative gives unfair advantage in Academy

[Sailor Vulcan]

Generally, in card games the player who goes first usually has a natural advantage unless rules are put in place to take that advantage away. For example, in magic the gathering, the first player cannot draw a card during their first turn, in yugioh the first player cannot attack their first turn, and in Hearthstone, the second player gets one more mana. I've played quite a few Academy games by now, and there seems to be no advantage to having initiative round 2. When given the choice, an Academy player who knows what they're doing will ALWAYS choose to have initiative round 1 (unless they're being generous). Otherwise they will be behind by at least 1 quick action the entire game. Because of this, the vast majority of Academy games are decided within the first four rounds or so. After that it's clear who is going to win, and there's no point in continuing. Being behind in Academy is almost impossible to recover from unless you're very very lucky.

Something needs to be done to address this imbalance. Some possible fixes:

-give more mana to the player who goes second
-give the player who goes second an extra quick action round 1 (balancing the timing of the quick action might be difficult here. If they use it immediately before the end of the round or right at the beginning could make a big difference.
-first player cannot use their quickcast round 1 (this currently sounds the most promising)

Please make an official ruling on this before starting official Academy Tournaments?

Thanks!

[Mystery]

why? the good thing is that if you have that guarding creature from the turn before, you can use it to your advantage with the extra action, if the initiative person doesnt want to waste his advantage. What you mean with behind one quick action?

[Halewijn]

No, vulcan is right, although I'm not a fan of his solutions. You have the chance to cast an enchantment (buff enchantment, panther stealth, badger frenzy, shrink, ...) and immediatly start with a huge attack that might  do considerable damage in turn 1.

This could be countered by player 2, but then you have to invest in defensive stuff, like armor, during the first 2 rounds and frankly, nobody likes doing that. The first player can just cast tons of attack power during the first 2 rounds.

Apart from that, I don't think Academy is fit for competitive play at the moment. Maybe it will be in the future.
Simple example of one of my wizards:
Turn 1: 10 Razortusk + badger frenzy (
Turn 2: Joined strength + wolf fury
Turn 3: panther stealth/shrink/Giant size + mega double attack ( 6 or 8 dice, piercing 1 + 4 dice piercing 1 )

You do on average 10/12 damage in during your first move. This combo is not possible if you are player 2.

[Sailor Vulcan]

No, vulcan is right, although I'm not a fan of his solutions. You have the chance to cast an enchantment (buff enchantment, panther stealth, badger frenzy, shrink, ...) and immediatly start with a huge attack that might  do considerable damage in turn 1.

This could be countered by player 2, but then you have to invest in defensive stuff, like armor, during the first 2 rounds and frankly, nobody likes doing that. The first player can just cast tons of attack power during the first 2 rounds.

Apart from that, I don't think Academy is fit for competitive play at the moment. Maybe it will be in the future.
Simple example of one of my wizards:
Turn 1: 10 Razortusk + badger frenzy (
Turn 2: Joined strength + wolf fury
Turn 3: panther stealth/shrink/Giant size + mega double attack ( 6 or 8 dice, piercing 1 + 4 dice piercing 1 )

You do on average 10/12 damage in during your first move. This combo is not possible if you are player 2.

You don't like any of the solutions? Not even keeping player 1 from using his quick cast round 1? That seemed to me like it would be the simplest and most effective solution. After all, the advantage initiative gives is an action advantage, not a mana advantage.

[Laddinfance]

No, vulcan is right, although I'm not a fan of his solutions. You have the chance to cast an enchantment (buff enchantment, panther stealth, badger frenzy, shrink, ...) and immediatly start with a huge attack that might  do considerable damage in turn 1.

This could be countered by player 2, but then you have to invest in defensive stuff, like armor, during the first 2 rounds and frankly, nobody likes doing that. The first player can just cast tons of attack power during the first 2 rounds.

Apart from that, I don't think Academy is fit for competitive play at the moment. Maybe it will be in the future.
Simple example of one of my wizards:
Turn 1: 10 Razortusk + badger frenzy (
Turn 2: Joined strength + wolf fury
Turn 3: panther stealth/shrink/Giant size + mega double attack ( 6 or 8 dice, piercing 1 + 4 dice piercing 1 )

You do on average 10/12 damage in during your first move. This combo is not possible if you are player 2.

You only get your melee bonus on the first attack, so you would just be rolling the creature's base dice on the second attack. Just wanted to point that out.

[Halewijn]

@laddinfance: Yes, I know. The Razortusk base attack is 4.

@Vulcan: It's not bad but also a bit situational since the value of a quick cast is not that high in academy. Often I don't do one to save mana.

[Sailor Vulcan]

@laddinfance: Yes, I know. The Razortusk base attack is 4.

@Vulcan: It's not bad but also a bit situational since the value of a quick cast is not that high in academy. Often I don't do one to save mana.

What if player 1 can ONLY use their quickcast round 1 and not their main action?

[iNano78]

@laddinfance: Yes, I know. The Razortusk base attack is 4.

@Vulcan: It's not bad but also a bit situational since the value of a quick cast is not that high in academy. Often I don't do one to save mana.

What if player 1 can ONLY use their quickcast round 1 and not their main action?

Then they're behind an entire creature going into round 3.  That's pretty tough on a mage that intends to swarm - has to go with a back-up plan due to the initiative die roll (!).

[Sailor Vulcan]

@laddinfance: Yes, I know. The Razortusk base attack is 4.

@Vulcan: It's not bad but also a bit situational since the value of a quick cast is not that high in academy. Often I don't do one to save mana.

What if player 1 can ONLY use their quickcast round 1 and not their main action?

Then they're behind an entire creature going into round 3.  That's pretty tough on a mage that intends to swarm - has to go with a back-up plan due to the initiative die roll (!).

Let's do the math. (Counting a full action as two quick actions here.

What about taking away player 1's quickcast round 1?

#: difference in cumulative Mage quick actions, aka natural action advantage
Positive means player 1's advantage, - means player 2's advantage

If things stay the same:

R1
+3
0
R2
-3
0
R3:
+3
0

If player 1 has only a quickcast round 1:

R1
+1
-2
R2:
-5
-2
R3
+1
-2

Okay so you're right that allowing player one to only use quickcast round 1 doesn't work.

What about not allowing player 1 to use their quickcast round 1?

R1
+2
-1
R2
-4
-1
R3
+2
-1

Hmm. So in both of those solutions player 2 comes out ahead in quick actions at the end of every round in the game. Okay...


We know that arena doesn't have this problem. Maybe the issue is with the number of quick actions being stringed together, rather than how many total per round?

Let's compare to Arena:

R1
+1
0
+2
0
R2
-1
0
-2
0
R3
+1
0
+2
0

Arena's quickcast phase makes it impossible for anyone's natural action advantage to be greater than 2. In Academy it always is at 3 or 0.

Hmm...

[Sailor Vulcan]

@laddinfance: Yes, I know. The Razortusk base attack is 4.

@Vulcan: It's not bad but also a bit situational since the value of a quick cast is not that high in academy. Often I don't do one to save mana.

What if player 1 can ONLY use their quickcast round 1 and not their main action?

Then they're behind an entire creature going into round 3.  That's pretty tough on a mage that intends to swarm - has to go with a back-up plan due to the initiative die roll (!).

Let's do the math. (Counting a full action as two quick actions here.

What about taking away player 1's quickcast round 1?

#: difference in cumulative Mage quick actions, aka natural action advantage
Positive means player 1's advantage, - means player 2's advantage

If things stay the same:

R1
+3
0
R2
-3
0
R3:
+3
0

If player 1 has only a quickcast round 1:

R1
+1
-2
R2:
-5
-2
R3
+1
-2

Okay so you're right that allowing player one to only use quickcast round 1 doesn't work.

What about not allowing player 1 to use their quickcast round 1?

R1
+2
-1
R2
-4
-1
R3
+2
-1

Hmm. So in both of those solutions player 2 comes out ahead in quick actions at the end of every round in the game. Okay...


We know that arena doesn't have this problem. Maybe the issue is with the number of quick actions being stringed together, rather than how many total per round?

Let's compare to Arena:

R1
+1
0
+2
0
R2
-1
0
-2
0
R3
+1
0
+2
0

Arena's quickcast phase makes it impossible for anyone's natural action advantage to be greater than 2. In Academy it always is at 3 or 0.

Hmm...

I wonder, would giving Academy a quickcast phase fix this problem?

[Sailor Vulcan]

OMG introducing the quickcast phases made things SO much more fun and balanced! I just had a really good game of Academy using the quickcast phases and oh my gosh it was so much better! Check and see for yourself! Everyone should start using quickcast phases in their Academy games.

Arcane Wonders, please test the game a little more using the quickcast phases, and then maybe make an official ruling?

You could also make it so that the quickcast phases are only required in official organized play, if you really think it's necessary.

Thanks!


Also, in order to avoid confusing new players about the difference between quick spells, the quickcast, and the quickcast phases, maybe they shouldn't actually be called quickcast phases. You could have it to be worded like this:

You can use your quickcast either
-directly before or after a friendly creature activation
OR
-directly before or after the action phase, starting with the player who has initiative.

[Laddinfance]

When we made Academy we extensively tested the game both with and without quickcast phases. We decided on the released version of Academy as we found that it best met all of our goals for the project.

[Sailor Vulcan]

When we made Academy we extensively tested the game both with and without quickcast phases. We decided on the released version of Academy as we found that it best met all of our goals for the project.

Huh. So why did you guys decide not to include quickcast phases, then? The game seems a lot less balanced without them.

[wtcannonjr]

When we made Academy we extensively tested the game both with and without quickcast phases. We decided on the released version of Academy as we found that it best met all of our goals for the project.

Huh. So why did you guys decide not to include quickcast phases, then? The game seems a lot less balanced without them.

Perhaps having initiative is meant to provide an advantage? For example,

 It seems that having a non-symmetrical starting condition would require players to balance their spellbook designs since they won't know whether they will win initiative or not. So each book would need to have elements of each play style. I.e. Less balance in one aspect of the game may provide overall balance over repeated plays.

[Sailor Vulcan]

When we made Academy we extensively tested the game both with and without quickcast phases. We decided on the released version of Academy as we found that it best met all of our goals for the project.

Huh. So why did you guys decide not to include quickcast phases, then? The game seems a lot less balanced without them.

Perhaps having initiative is meant to provide an advantage? For example,

 It seems that having a non-symmetrical starting condition would require players to balance their spellbook designs since they won't know whether they will win initiative or not. So each book would need to have elements of each play style. I.e. Less balance in one aspect of the game may provide overall balance over repeated plays.

That doesn't make any sense. It's impossible to design your spellbook to completely negate the disadvantage of going second, as halewijin already explained. Both the beastmaster and the wizard have this unfair advantage when they go first. Also, even if it was possible to negate this imbalance through better deck design, why would they intentionally build in an arbitrary and unnecessary imbalance just for the sake of forcing player 2 to adapt, but not player 1?