Lion Savagery timing question and Slow effect

[Borg]

Do you have to reveal LS prior to taking your move action to trigger the Charge+2 effect or can you wait to reveal it until the end of the Avoid Attack step to reveal and still get the effect ?

[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE06] Lion Savagery[/mwcard]


The Piercing part you can wait with until you actually have rolled the dice, but its the Charge+2 part I'm not sure about.

[Kharhaz]

Do you have to reveal LS prior to taking your move action to trigger the effects or can you wait to reveal it until the end of the Avoid Attack step to reveal and still get the effects ?

[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE06] Lion Savagery[/mwcard]

The charge dice are calculated in Step 3 Roll Dice. If the attack qualifies, i.e "happen immediately after moving at least one zone", then bonus charge dice are added to the first attack.

So yes, you can reveal at the end of the avoid attack step

[Borg]

Thanks Kharhaz, so we got this sequence completely OK as well ...

Guarding Angel moves into Warlock's zone.
Warlock reveals Enfeeble ( thinking to have stopped the Angel there )
Priestess then reveals Cheetah Speed on the Angel, cancelling the Enfeeble and making sure the Angel can attack after all.
Then the Lion Savagery and Bear Strength turn face up and we rolled 7 dice with Pierce+1

[Kharhaz]

Thanks Kharhaz, so we got this sequence completely OK as well ...

Guarding Angel moves into Warlock's zone.
Warlock reveals Enfeeble ( thinking to have stopped the Angel there )
Priestess then reveals Cheetah Speed on the Angel, cancelling the Enfeeble and making sure the Angel can attack after all.
Then the Lion Savagery and Bear Strength turn face up and we rolled 7 dice with Pierce+1

Yes, it SHOULD work like that, but I want to take a moment and talk about how the wording of how slow works:

"immediately ends his action phase"

The way it plays out (although I still want to argue this) is that after completing the move action you are forced to end the creatures action, and any enchantments are revealed after that.

So the fast trait would not be applied to the current creatures action, to cancel out the slow trait, in order to take its quick action.

[Zuberi]

Kharhaz is correct. In your scenario, Enfeeble was revealed after the movement was complete, and the creature's Action Phase will thus end as soon Enfeeble resolves. There is also no chance to respond to Enfeeble before it resolves. Thus, you can't reveal Cheetah Speed until after the creature has already ended it's Action Phase, and it will not get a chance to attack at this time.

[Borg]

Thanks for clarifying, both.

I figured it SHOULD work like we played it, with cheetah speed removing the enfeeble effect and still allowing the attack, that makes the most SENSE to me and feels most intuitive and offers more tactics to the game.
But I understand it works differently, due to the wording of Slow.

Any way, the whole situation could be avoided by simply playing it safe and revealing the Cheetah Speed prior to moving.

[Looke83]

I'm wondering. Incantation shouldn't interrupt action so it will be revealed after moving. For that reason it shouldn't influence on that move because it was before revealing. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[Zuberi]

Page 19 of the Rules goes over when you can reveal enchantments. Below is a discussion of some of these opportunities relevant to the thread.

1. When it becomes your turn to activate a creature, your opponent can reveal an enchantment before you declare anything.

2. Then, you activate a creature and your opponent has another chance to reveal before you declare what the creature will do.

3. Then you may move one single zone. Your opponent can not reveal during this move, but he can afterwards.

4. Then you take your action. If this action is to attack or cast a spell, enchantments can be revealed between the various steps of the action (possibly interrupting the action), but otherwise they can't be revealed until the action is completed. For example, if you guard or move a second zone there is no chance to reveal enchantments during those actions.

This discussion was going over the third option there. After you move a single zone, your opponent reveals Enfeeble which immediately ends your creature's action phase because the creature has moved. It does not get to take an action beyond the one zone movement it already completed. The enchantment doesn't influence the move that already happened, but it does register that it happened and it does prevent further action this phase.

Or, after the third option you reveal Lion Savagery (or you could reveal lion savagery as late as after step 2 of the combat steps). Again, it doesn't influence the move that already occurred, but it does register that it did occur and thus influences later events, such as how many dice you roll in your attack.

[Borg]

Thanks Kharhaz, so we got this sequence completely OK as well ...

Guarding Angel moves into Warlock's zone.
Warlock reveals Enfeeble ( thinking to have stopped the Angel there )
Priestess then reveals Cheetah Speed on the Angel, cancelling the Enfeeble and making sure the Angel can attack after all.
Then the Lion Savagery and Bear Strength turn face up and we rolled 7 dice with Pierce+1

Yes, it SHOULD work like that, but I want to take a moment and talk about how the wording of how slow works:

"immediately ends his action phase"

The way it plays out (although I still want to argue this) is that after completing the move action you are forced to end the creatures action, and any enchantments are revealed after that.

So the fast trait would not be applied to the current creatures action, to cancel out the slow trait, in order to take its quick action.

Sorry to revive this old topic but reading the explanation on slow in the Rules and Codex supplement I think that Slow may not necessarily end your action that away.

Here's what the codex says :

quote
Slow
A creature checks whether or not it can take an additional action at the moment it would declare the action. If it acquires the Slow trait before it takes the action, it may not be able to take the action. If it acquires the Slow trait after it is already in the process of taking an action, the Slow trait will not prevent or restrict it from taking that action. Likewise, if it loses the Slow trait just before it would take an action, it might be able to take an action.

Example: A creature begins its Action Phase by taking a move action to move into another zone. After it moves into the new zone, the opponent reveals an Enfeeble enchantment on the creature, which gives it the Slow trait. The creature was planning to make a quick melee attack on an enemy creature in the zone it just entered. However, because it acquired the Slow trait before it makes the quick action melee attack, it can no longer take that action and must end its Action Phase instead.

Example: The same creature above enters the new zone and the opponent does not reveal Enfeeble on it, yet. It then declares a quick action melee attack against an enemy creature in that zone. During that melee attack, the opponent reveals the Enfeeble enchantment on the creature, giving it the Slow trait. Since it acquired the Slow trait after it has already started its attack action, the Slow trait does not affect or prevent that attack from continuing.

Example: A zone enchantment gives all creatures in that zone the Slow trait. A creature begins its Action Phase in that zone by taking a move action to move out of the zone. It has the Slow trait as it moves out of the zone, but as soon as it completes its move action it no longer is Slow. After moving out of the zone it may now take a quick action.
End quote

Let's take the example again of the Guardian Angel moving.
At the end of that move action, the Warlock reveals Enfeeble which would end the Angel's action there.
But ... also at the end of that move action, the Priestess reveals a Cheetah Speed.
So ... at the end of that move action Slow and Fast cancel each other out.

Now the codex says : A creature checks whether or not it can take an additional action at the moment it would declare the action and Likewise, if it loses the Slow trait just before it would take an action, it might be able to take an action.

IMO this means the Angel's action is not finished after the Enfeeble/Cheetah Speed are revealed because the Slow trait is lost before it takes its next action and the creature checks whether it can take an action when it declares that action and surely the Angel can take another quick action because it does not have the Slow trait at that moment.

But of course this specific example is not in the codex to confirm this.
Can any authority confirm or deny this, please ?

[ringkichard]

The actual answer to this question should probably wait a short while, for reasons Laddinfance will have to explain when he's back from the con he's attending.

[Zuberi]

Despite achieving a bit of notoriety on here, I am not an official authority on the rules and as ringkichard stated an actual answer will probably have to wait on Laddinfance. However, I will give my two cents.

The problem comes from how Slow is worded in the codex, where it says "If this creature takes a move action, it's Action Phase immediately ends." That is much more specific than just being unable to take a quick action, and even answers timing questions with the word "immediately."

Now, the Rules and Codex Supplement does try to clarify how to handle gaining/losing the slow trait during a creature Action Phase. The only thing it really tells us though is that gaining the Slow trait will not cancel an action already in progress. It doesn't tell us anything new regarding losing the Slow trait. The only example it gives for losing the slow trait mid Action Phase has the creature losing it by the time their move is completed. Since Slow doesn't end your Action Phase until after you take a move, if you don't have Slow at the end of your Move, your Action Phase doesn't end. Nothing new here. In fact, the very first example supports and strengthens the existing concept that revealing Enfeeble after a move immediately ends your action phase.

It is also important to remember that effects are applied in the order they occur. They don't happen simultaneously. Although multiple effects can be triggered simultaneously by the same event, they are then resolved in a specific order. Thus, if Enfeeble is revealed before Cheetah Speed, it will take affect before Cheetah Speed gets a chance to be revealed, and it will end the creature's Action Phase if applicable. You do not get to reveal Cheetah Speed until after this has already occurred. They do not get revealed simultaneously, even if they are both revealed immediately after the creature moves.

So, based on that information, it would play out like this: Creature activates, creature moves, Enfeeble is revealed, and the creature ends it's action phase immediately. Cheetah Speed is then revealed, but the creature was not about to take an action, because it's action phase was done, so the removal of the Slow trait does not allow it to then take an action.

It is possible that this ruling may change in the future, and again I am not an official authority, but for right now I don't see anything in the Rules and Codex Supplement that changes anything.

[jacksmack]

You can reveal lion savagery just before roll dice step and still get the charge bonus.

Regarding Enfeeble / Cheetah speed I believe:
The players get to reveal enchantments in response to each other before game is picked up, so the creatures turn will not end in this situation.

Or

A different argument or timing perspective is:
The text is 'takes'. It already took it at the time enfeeble is revealed, so we are not checking if the creature is allowed to take an action before a new action is declared which means there is time to reveal cheetah speed.



(i know im about to get zuberized, but what the hell.)

[Zuberi]

Regarding Enfeeble / Cheetah speed I believe:
The players get to reveal enchantments in response to each other before game is picked up, so the creatures turn will not end in this situation.

The game does not pause for enchantments and get picked up later. The enchantments are happening in real time, so to speak, and so if Enfeeble is revealed first, it will take full effect before any other enchantments can be revealed. You don't wait on other enchantments before seeing what happens. There is no stack.

A different argument or timing perspective is:
The text is 'takes'. It already took it at the time enfeeble is revealed, so we are not checking if the creature is allowed to take an action before a new action is declared which means there is time to reveal cheetah speed.

Again, the problem is that slow doesn't merely prevent you from taking an action. It ends your Action Phase. Immediately. Your creature is not allowed to take an action outside of it's Action Phase. Thus, the fact that you don't check to see if the action is possible until you go to declare the action is irrelevant, because your action phase is done and you aren't able to declare an action. It's not that the action you want to declare is not possible, it's that you are no longer in an Action Phase.

[ringkichard]

There's an unfortunate problem with taking the Codex text of Slow too literally: it's not compatible with the examples in the FAQ.

1. The rules interchangeably use the words make, take, and perform. I can perform a move action or take a move action. I can make an attack or take an attack action. These don't have well fleshed out distinctions between them, but the way they're usually used don't mean to complete an action but instead to start an action. A rule that said, "if this creature makes an attack, cancel it," would work because the creature "makes the attack" long before dice are rolled.

2. By the literal meaning of the Codex entry for Slow, merely taking a move action should end the creatures activation.

If this creature takes a move action, its Action Phase immediately ends.

This would end the creature's action at movement step 1, when the movement is declared. This is obviously not correct.

3. We can see further incompatibility in the FAQ's opening paragraph:

Slow
A creature checks whether or not it can take an additional action at the moment it would declare the action. If it acquires the Slow trait before it takes the action, it may not be able to take the action. If it acquires the Slow trait after it is already in the process of taking an action, the Slow trait will not prevent or restrict it from taking that action. 
Likewise, if it loses the Slow trait just before it would take an action, it might be able to take an action.

This language of a creature checking to see if it can perform an action is completely incompatible with a literal reading of the Codex's entry on Slow. Taking the Codex literally, the creature shouldn't be able to check anything or be in a position to try to declare anything, because its activation should be over immediately after moving. The example treats the rules for Slow as if it meant, "If this creature takes a move action, it cannot take further actions during this activation."

[Borg]

This language of a creature checking to see if it can perform an action is completely incompatible with a literal reading of the Codex's entry on Slow. Taking the Codex literally, the creature shouldn't be able to check anything or be in a position to try to declare anything, because its activation should be over immediately after moving. The example treats the rules for Slow as if it meant, "If this creature takes a move action, it cannot take further actions during this activation."

My thoughts exactly.

I would like to further expand on ringkichard's definition of slow like this :

The example treats the rules for Slow as if it meant, "If this creature takes a move action, it cannot take further actions during this activation unless it loses the Slow trait before taking its next quick action".