The Blasting Banker

[Charmyna]

Here is IMO one of the most important things to keep in mind when fighting against multi-creature mages as a solo mage: If the opponent has Ini, his creatures are standing right on top of my mage and I know all will attack me this round. What will I do? I stand still and pass as long as possible!
Many dont want to use their mages action before the opponent used his mages action. So all creatures will attack my wizard. After that I move my Mage one zone and the opponent moves his one. Next round I have ini and move my mage again one zone at the start of the round. So his creatures will not be able to attack my Wiz this round unless they have fast. Next round they will all be able to attack me and the circle starts again.
Sure, teleport makes things more complex (for both sides). Therefore dissolving a Teleport Wand will be a high priority for both sides I guess.
Well, even without teleport the opponent might move his mage before mine and save his hardest hitter to move and attack after my wizard (if his hardest hitter is a grizzly he wont be able to use his full attack then).
Still, what this all leads to is that most of his creatures will not attack me every round (especially not if they are zombies). Counting in the voltaric shield+armor+belt on my mage it will take quite some rounds till his creatures get to the point where they come to a mana to damage ratio of 1:1 taking into account all the mana spend on the creatures (including teleport, enchantments etc). Btw the decelerating effect of Obelisk+Essence Drain+Suppression Cloak is just awesome for a solo mage!
Now, keep in mind that if I get to the point where I got rid of most of the opponent mages armor and there are an Hawkey+Fireshapers Ring on my Banker, the mana to damage ratio is better than 1:1 for Fireball (thanks to the burns) and for Flameblast even more!
So the main question in my experience is: Who can get rid of the opponents defensive stuff quicker? Often its the Banker since he is full of devotion to toughening himself and detoughening the opponent.

[sIKE]

Here is IMO one of the most important things to keep in mind when fighting against multi-creature mages as a solo mage: If the opponent has Ini, his creatures are standing right on top of my mage and I know all will attack me this round. What will I do? I stand still and pass as long as possible!
Many dont want to use their mages action before the opponent used his mages action. So all creatures will attack my wizard. After that I move him one zone and he moves his mage. Next round I have ini and move again one zone at the start of the round. So his creatures will not be able to attack me this round unless they have fast. Next round they will all be able to attack me and the circle starts again.
Sure, teleport makes things more complex (for both sides). Therefore dissolving a Teleport Wand will be a high priority for both sides I guess.
Well, even without teleport the opponent might move his mage before mine and save his hardest hitter to move and attack after my wizard (if his hardest hitter is a grizzly he wont be able to use his full attack then).
Still, what this all leads to is that most of his creatures will not attack me every round (especially not if they are zombies). Counting in the voltaric shield+armor+belt on my mage it will take quite some rounds till his creatures get to the point where they come to a mana to damage ratio of 1:1 taking into account all the mana spend on the creatures (including teleport, enchantments etc). Btw the decelerating effect of Obelisk+Essence Drain+Suppression Cloak is just awesome for a solo mage!
Now, keep in mind that if I get to the point where I got rid of most of the opponent mages armor and there are an Hawkey+Fireshapers Ring on my Banker, the mana to damage ratio is better than 1:1 for Fireball (thanks to the burns) and for Flameblast even more!
So the main question in my experience is: Who can get rid of the opponents defensive stuff quicker? Often its the Banker since he is full of devotion to toughening himself and detoughening the opponent.

Truth

[Wildhorn]

I wish I could duel you Charmanya. Im sure my Priest would teach you a lesson or two... Or vice versa...

[DeckBuilder]

Still, what this all leads to is that most of his creatures will not attack me every round (especially not if they are zombies).

You make a well-known point about High Armoured Mages just taking the hits every second turn, just standard sequencing tactics.
However, Zombie Brute Squad uses Zombie Frenzy and movement spells (Teleport, Force Push, Force Wave) to land its punches.

Forcemaster lures you into a Grizzly with Force Pull, bypassing Nullify while dodging your range 2 Fireballs.
Curse Warlock Enfeebles threats while safely kiting protected by Nullify, Cloak of Shadows, Cheetah Speed.
Guardian Angels protect Holy Mages, Druid and Raptors Corrode you to death, Gargoyle protect Wizards etc.
I would still like to believe there must be ways around this build (that also have a game against others).

I could not believe it when they previewed Veteran's Belt when they knew the Voltaric Shield issue already.
Veteran's Belt created Forge High Armour Near Invulnerable Equipment builds, destroying Core Set balance.

But your cutting edge is the spike damage within short space of time you can achieve with Wizard's Tower.
That is a very good insight, Charmyna, keeping Wizard's Tower "in your pocket" until you spike burst to win.

I have now tested BB (playing against myself only sadly) and BB did win against my latest Zombie Brute Squad with its Forge (for High Armour like every other build now), Pestilence, Deathlock, Enfeeble and Move spells. But it was close, a few luckier rolls and I feel the result could have been different. The end was nigh when BB Teleported to range 1 to trigger my Nullify with cheap Wand Dissolve target then, gaining Initiative, BB Dissolved the second Cloak of Shadows. Looking back, I should have moved Necro that round but that's the problem with Zombie Frenzy, a full action. Obviously, I played as a Novice and having total knowledge was to BB's disadvantage but I've played many more games as Wizard compared to my 2 games with Necro now so player skill level was roughly equal in my experiment. Yes, it passed the test, it's a great build, congrats Charmyna.

I think it would have a harder time against Forcemaster Solo with 1 Grizzly (Forge pimping FM with equips and enchant buffs as you have no Purge), against a Voltari build with Gargoyles, Jellies, Teleport Wands or against Holy Mages with Guardian Angels, Knights, Brogan.

However, after testing it, i agree its Mana Denial is a sufficient delay to play its spike damage burst.
After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.
First Wizard's Tower then Veteran's Belt - I miss the far more balanced game that was just Core Set.
I can't see it changing in near future either as theme not game balance seems to drive design choice.
It's all really depressing.

Congrats, Charmyna, on your great new build! Now pass me another helping of that delicious humble pie...

[ringkichard]

After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.

Nah.

[Laddinfance]

However, after testing it, i agree its Mana Denial is a sufficient delay to play its spike damage burst.
After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.
First Wizard's Tower then Veteran's Belt - I miss the far more balanced game that was just Core Set.
I can't see it changing in near future either as theme not game balance seems to drive design choice.
It's all really depressing.

Yes, Theme is very important to us. This is at its heart a thematic game and that is one of our biggest strengths. Ideally we want Mage Wars to be an immersive experience. However, we do take balance issues quite seriously, as I'd hope you know. Now, we struggle to have the right response and not simply the "fast" one. Now, in the last few weeks I've seen players mention all different "imbalances". Which is the most important? Right now I know that the concerns players had when I started Forged in Fire are different than the concerns players have now. This is part of why we try not to react rashly. I have a list of concerns here in my office. They're things I'm watching, and they get contemplated when I go to make cards. However, the last thing I want to do is overreact.

I hope this recent string of play has not soured you to playtesting. PVS needs that voice.

[Charmyna]

However, after testing it, i agree its Mana Denial is a sufficient delay to play its spike damage burst.
After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.
First Wizard's Tower then Veteran's Belt - I miss the far more balanced game that was just Core Set.
I can't see it changing in near future either as theme not game balance seems to drive design choice.
It's all really depressing.

Sorry for this . But as you said I think there are quite some strategies that give the BB a hard time (e.g. Curse Builds, Heavy Hitter builds both with decent armor and a couple of Dispels/Dissolves)! Btw most of my games with BB were against multi medium creature builds which have the biggest problems against BB I think. So its too early to call balance problems I believe.

In my only non playtest game recently, I thrashed a Wizard with Zombie Brute Squad.
Pestilence and Deathlock while chased by 4 Frenzied Brutes should hurt?

I just had a game against a Brute Squad. I got less than ten damage in total from which a couple where healed by regrowth (he used Deathlock at some point). In the end the bloodthirsty on the Brutes backfired at him since he could not dissolve the Suppression Cloak quickly (partly because of Enchantment Transfusion+Nullify trick) and his zombies had to attack me even though they did only very few damage and he had to pay 2 mana for each attack.
Here is the link of the recorded stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/3768200

[wtcannonjr]

I just had a game against a Brute Squad. I got less than ten damage in total from which a couple where healed by regrowth (he used Deathlock at some point). In the end the bloodthirsty on the Brutes backfired at him since he could not dissolve the Suppression Cloak quickly (partly because of Enchantment Transfusion+Nullify trick) and his zombies had to attack me even though they did only very few damage and he had to pay 2 mana for each attack.
Here is the link of the recorded stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/3768200

This is one example of why Corrosive Orchid can be so powerful.

[webcatcher]

Yes, Theme is very important to us. This is at its heart a thematic game and that is one of our biggest strengths. Ideally we want Mage Wars to be an immersive experience. However, we do take balance issues quite seriously, as I'd hope you know.

I'm glad to hear this. If the sad experience of Games Workshop has taught us anything, it's that focusing on theme to the detriment of game balance will not win you any friends in the long run.

[Laddinfance]

Yes, Theme is very important to us. This is at its heart a thematic game and that is one of our biggest strengths. Ideally we want Mage Wars to be an immersive experience. However, we do take balance issues quite seriously, as I'd hope you know.

I'm glad to hear this. If the sad experience of Games Workshop has taught us anything, it's that focusing on theme to the detriment of game balance will not win you any friends in the long run.

The end of the day our theme isn't "one mage beats all" so It's in our interest to look at the balance as well.

[Charmyna]

I feel like I have to emphasize that I somehow lack experience of how good Acid Ball is against the BB! I guess if the opponent focuses on dissolving the two Wands of Healing and on putting corrode tokens on the BB, at some point the BB will be left with only two armor and he cant do anything about it. At this point the Veterans Belt will be much less useful!
Therefore, the success I had with this build so far partly might be caused by the sparse population of Acid Balls I had the pleasure to meet recently.

[DeckBuilder]

I just had a game against a Brute Squad. I got less than ten damage in total from which a couple where healed by regrowth (he used Deathlock at some point). In the end the bloodthirsty on the Brutes backfired at him since he could not dissolve the Suppression Cloak quickly (partly because of Enchantment Transfusion+Nullify trick) and his zombies had to attack me even though they did only very few damage and he had to pay 2 mana for each attack.

Yeah, I could see that problem. The trick with playing Brute Squad against BB is not to be too aggressive at the start (you can go down the aggro route against other match-ups), after all, you only need 2 attacks to take out Obelisk (and you don't want them distracted so timing of Pestilence is key). Current Brute Squad can be a standard Heavy Armour Forge Mage for slower roll-out of Brutes - still 17 points of 4 Brutes, Shaggoth + Plague. Knowing BB totally (playing myself), I knew I had to sacrifice my first Cloak of Shadows for your Cloak of Suppression else the game was up. But yes, I can see Brute Squad played aggressive (like normal) is a good match-up for BB.

My Curse Necromancer (which I put on hold, so little time to design books these days) should handle BB. The problem is it's got no game vs. Brute Squad (Frenzy gets round 4 Enfeebles) and a poor game vs. Nonliving Wizard (as Cloak of Shadows and 2 Teleports is not enough to win Teleport Wars). I added 6 Chains (Force Wave does not help against. Frenzy) to try to control Brutes (+ Falcons' Fury etc) but still has no Win Con vs. Necro beyond Force Crush + Magebane (which isn't enough). Also Kiting is impossible with Vines as Mongoose doesn't help but Shadows hurts Vine range too. So it has a few really bad match-ups I'm trying to solve but is otherwise a strong idea (I think). I need to test before posting. Alas this weekend is a big playtest deadline.

You know concept but I suspect it works best in Necro (Eternal Knight guards conjuration corner while kiting)
Enchanter's Ring to Curse myself under Cloak of Shadows while kiting (Cheetah + Mongoose vs. Enfeebles)
I suddenly end turn drop 2 Wardstones and free action before Upkeep bypass your Nullify with Transfusion of
Enfeeble + Ghoul Rot + Agony (in BB's case) + Magebane + Poisoned Blood + Force Crush + Nullify
Reveal all with saved mana (Forge equips, 1 self-enchant per turn + occasional Enfeeble, saving while kiting)
Of course the 2 Wardstones (others destroyed during game so far) prevent a simple Purge Magic of them all.

I mentioned it when Tarkin asked to come good on "How to Beat the Wiz?" (so I rough drafted Brute Squad) because if most mages are going Forge + High Armour + Veteran's Belt + Shield + Nullifies, direct damage in a Deathlock world is surely a solution? Going back to Core Set's design, AW created it as the counter strategy (obviously Corrode added later) but they need to ensure Direct Damage stays viable to defeat High Armour.

I was dubious a Necro build with just 1 Knight would work (maybe Bat as poison deliverer!) as he is designed played as Swarm. I ignored his Spawnpoints (and even Ring) with Bruite Squad. Now I am even ignoring using creatures, just Channel 10, Dark access like Cloak of Shadows + Death Link, Poison Immunity, Eternal Knight useful if saving mana, always reanimate). After seeing your Solo build, I'm more confident. I feel Necro Curse Transfusion is just a fun build as it currently has too many bad match-ups but may end up Wizard Killer build (as requested in that thread) against annoying opponents (like me) who only play High Armour Forge Mages.


I'm totally new to BB, Charmyna (really taken with "end game Wizard's Tower", that's your build's big insight for me).
But playing it just that once, I have a few suggestions...

Mana Siphon - nobody plays Ethereal much (11 with Ring)
Suppession Orb (7 with Ring) - when their threats smash your Obelisk in 1 corner, play Orb in opposite corner
Surely the distraction tempo cost of removing them is greater than the cost to you of playing them?
You already know with Mana Denial that the greater you turn the screw, the more it hurts (and more fun it is).
Mana advantage is diminishing (every +1 Channel worth less than last) so Mana disadvantage is exponential.
Each spell is Cost/Channel in % term of each turn's income so make Channel as low as possible with burdens.
I'm teaching grandmothers to suck eggs (English phrase: means you're the expert) but I don't understand why not go "all-in"?

I also think you underrate Purge Magic's action efficiency (not everyone plays Transfusion Nullify, Charmyna)

And the Bat - please it's got to go, it's a 2SP affront to a very strong build.
It's humiliating to be beaten by a book that has 1 Bat as it's only creature!
It's just rude!


Anyway, a really great build and I'm going to test it (with a few changes above) against
* Almost Solo Forcemaster (Forge + Buffs + 1 Grizzly)
* Curse Warlock/Necromancer which is also Mana Denial (been playing Wizard Mana Denial for a long time)

I'm hoping some non-Wizard builds will beat BB because if it doesn't, it really is time to inspect 2 cards:
(a) Wizard's Tower that made Wizards dominant since it arrived
(b) Veteran's Belt that is pushing the meta down dull Forge High Armour, destroying diversity in builds
This dominance of Wizards really needs to stop if Wizard Solo is better than Forcemaster Solo!

Here's hoping you soon lose with BB, Charmyna!

[ringkichard]

I can think of two cards off the top of my head in the new set that will disrupt the meta enough to require adaptation from BB.

Wizard is still very strong, of course, but the metagame is always a moving target.

[DeckBuilder]

In particular, I feel like Druid + Vine Tree is very effective against Wizard Tower.
....
In general I feel like almost any Battleforge based strategy that is at least moderately defensive should also be good vs. Wizard Tower.

Thank you, AlexW, for your sage advice - which I took and it indeed proved correct.

I quickly cobbled together a Buffed Elites Aggro Druid build below and it beat BB piloted by my friend.
We then swapped books and he did exactly the same to me (though I made alcohol-fuelled mistakes).


AGGRO DRUID (Vine Tree + Battle Forge)

5 CREATURES (16)
4 Raptor Vine (12)
1 Kralathor (4)

15 ENCHANTMENTS (20)
1 Marked for Death (2)
4 Bear Strength (4)
4 Rhino Hide (4)
2 Hawkeye (2)
1 Divine Protection (2)
1 Force Orb (2)
1 Cobra Reflexes (2)
1 Barkskin (2)

16 CONJURATIONS (26)
1 Vine Tree (2)
1 Battle Forge (6)
4 Mana Flower (4)
6 Tanglevine (6)
4 Corrosive Orchid [8]

12 EQUIPMENT (19)
1 Leaf Ring (1)
1 Enchanter's Ring (1)
1 Moonglow Amulet (2)
2 Bearskin (2)
2 Elemental Cloak (4)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Leather Boots (1)
1 Veteran's Belt (3)
1 Vinewhip Staff (2)
1 Healing Wand (2)

15 INCANTATIONS (27)
6 Dispel (12)
6 Dissolve (6)
2 Teleport [8]
1 Rouse the Beast (1)

12 ATTACKS (12)
6 Surging Wave (6)
6 Acid Ball (6)


Key Play Requirements:
1. Accept (with Hawkeye) you use 2 Waves to kill each Battle Forge - you must remove spell action sources
2. Beat BB on the mana race as you have the tools (Leaf Ring + Flowers superior to Harmonize)
3. Vine Tree can sprout a Raptor wherever Orb appears to Bear Strength and Rouse the Beasts
4. Don't give BB time to build up (and especially set up Transfusion tricks), pressure from the start
5. Accept you pay 4 extra mana on first Orchid on Dissolve Wand when Armour Ward appears then Dispel it
6. Other Orchid targets include Suppression Cloak and the other Wands (leave Armour to Corrode)
7. Target Leather item with your plentiful Dissolves to trigger Nullify before Marked to Death (reveal later)
8. Accept your first Acid Ball will have a Defense when Force Orb appears which you then Dispel
9. This match-up is about compressing action bursts so leverage your extra actions, spell actions and mana


Now I appreciate neither of us can play BB anywhere near as well as you, Charmyna, so maybe it's not a clear-cut bad match-up.
Especially as this build was quickly cobbled together (based on my last "Druid book clinic" build) and I'm sure it can be improved.

With just 2 Druid games under my belt (playtesting over!), I've kicked Necromancer out (after just 2 games) and fallen for the Druid.
I think they designed her to be the answer to the Wizard - and they've done a good job because it's subtle.
She's got mana against mana denial, cheap spawnpoint, corrode armour, vine range spells, auto-hindering.
It's taken this long to realise she's great - I've got so much catching up to do, reconnecting with the meta.

Anyway, the Druid Aggro build above should be ok against other builds (so it's not just a BB killer).
It needs work though, someone who's an expert at the Druid.

Meantime, I'm just happy the "unbeaten BB" can be beaten after the shock of discovering how good it was.
I'm pretty sure Forcemaster Almost Solo (Forge, 1 Grizzly, buffs on both, Force Hammers) will also beat BB.
BB is just a moment-in-time meta build and I know the next set will have more hate against similar builds.
I'm also happy that this crisis in confidence with the game design has proven hidden depths in DvN design.

Thank you, Charmyna, for sharing BB. It's a great build and got me thinking about a less extreme version.

[Charmyna]

In particular, I feel like Druid + Vine Tree is very effective against Wizard Tower.
....
In general I feel like almost any Battleforge based strategy that is at least moderately defensive should also be good vs. Wizard Tower.

Thank you, AlexW, for your sage advice - which I took and it indeed proved correct.

I quickly cobbled together a Buffed Elites Aggro Druid build below and it beat BB piloted by my friend.
We then swapped books and he did exactly the same to me (though I made alcohol-fuelled mistakes).


AGGRO DRUID (Vine Tree + Battle Forge)

5 CREATURES (16)
4 Raptor Vine (12)
1 Kralathor (4)

15 ENCHANTMENTS (20)
1 Marked for Death (2)
4 Bear Strength (4)
4 Rhino Hide (4)
2 Hawkeye (2)
1 Divine Protection (2)
1 Force Orb (2)
1 Cobra Reflexes (2)
1 Barkskin (2)

16 CONJURATIONS (26)
1 Vine Tree (2)
1 Battle Forge (6)
4 Mana Flower (4)
6 Tanglevine (6)
4 Corrosive Orchid [8]

12 EQUIPMENT (19)
1 Leaf Ring (1)
1 Enchanter's Ring (1)
1 Moonglow Amulet (2)
2 Bearskin (2)
2 Elemental Cloak (4)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Leather Boots (1)
1 Veteran's Belt (3)
1 Vinewhip Staff (2)
1 Healing Wand (2)

15 INCANTATIONS (27)
6 Dispel (12)
6 Dissolve (6)
2 Teleport [8]
1 Rouse the Beast (1)

12 ATTACKS (12)
6 Surging Wave (6)
6 Acid Ball (6)


Key Play Requirements:
1. Accept (with Hawkeye) you use 2 Waves to kill each Battle Forge - you must remove spell action sources
2. Beat BB on the mana race as you have the tools (Leaf Ring + Flowers superior to Harmonize)
3. Vine Tree can sprout a Raptor wherever Orb appears to Bear Strength and Rouse the Beasts
4. Don't give BB time to build up (and especially set up Transfusion tricks), pressure from the start
5. Accept you pay 4 extra mana on first Orchid on Dissolve Wand when Armour Ward appears then Dispel it
6. Other Orchid targets include Suppression Cloak and the other Wands (leave Armour to Corrode)
7. Target Leather item with your plentiful Dissolves to trigger Nullify before Marked to Death (reveal later)
8. Accept your first Acid Ball will have a Defense when Force Orb appears which you then Dispel
9. This match-up is about compressing action bursts so leverage your extra actions, spell actions and mana


Now I appreciate neither of us can play BB anywhere near as well as you, Charmyna, so maybe it's not a clear-cut bad match-up.
Especially as this build was quickly cobbled together (based on my last "Druid book clinic" build) and I'm sure it can be improved.

With just 2 Druid games under my belt (playtesting over!), I've kicked Necromancer out (after just 2 games) and fallen for the Druid.
I think they designed her to be the answer to the Wizard - and they've done a good job because it's subtle.
She's got mana against mana denial, cheap spawnpoint, corrode armour, vine range spells, auto-hindering.
It's taken this long to realise she's great - I've got so much catching up to do, reconnecting with the meta.

Anyway, the Druid Aggro build above should be ok against other builds (so it's not just a BB killer).
It needs work though, someone who's an expert at the Druid.

Meantime, I'm just happy the "unbeaten BB" can be beaten after the shock of discovering how good it was.
I'm pretty sure Forcemaster Almost Solo (Forge, 1 Grizzly, buffs on both, Force Hammers) will also beat BB.
BB is just a moment-in-time meta build and I know the next set will have more hate against similar builds.
I'm also happy that this crisis in confidence with the game design has proven hidden depths in DvN design.

Thank you, Charmyna, for sharing BB. It's a great build and got me thinking about a less extreme version.

Glad to hear you had some fun games with the BB!
Its easy to say afterwards but I always thought Druid is the best candidate to beat BB. Treebond and Barkskin are awesome to help surive BBs blast. Summoning plants with the Vine Trees action on top of conjurations is great too as well as using Tanglevine and stuck markers on the BB to make him use his teleports. Maybe even more important are the cheap Dissolves+Acid Balls and the great in school heavy hitter (Grizzly).
I feel its time to say it again! Its (almost) all about spellpoints! What makes the BB such a successful build IMO is that his main strategy heavily depends on in school spells and the build does not need any level two or higher out of school spells (in the latest iteration I removed Dancing Scimitar). This allows the BB to have 2-3 copies of the most important spells and still be flexible enough to adjust to many different builds.
The Druid is such a formidable opponent against the BB since he is very spellpoint efficient as well! He can include many Acid Balls, Dissolves and Dispels needed to beat BB and still have enough spellpoints left for a couple medium/big in school creatures and many in school enchants to be well suited against other builds than the BB.

@Suppression Orb:
Im sure it will work great with this build but I dont want to spend too many spellpoints for stuff only useful against multi creature mages. If I play against a solo mage all the spellpoints put into Obelisk, Essence Drain and Suppression Orb will be useless in that game. Anyway, if I accept to spend four more Spellpoints into stuff only useful against creature builds, I would prefer two Essence Drain over Obelisk since I guess in the majority of situations they will cost him more mana than the Obelisk. Even if he dispels them, he will have lost 2-3 mana compared to what I invested and that dispel wont be used against BBs valuable Regrowth/Rhino Hide later.
You mentioned Siphon. I can see that spell is very useful for the BB and it works against all mages (not only creature builds). So I will test it out soon. Thx for that advice!
Btw I removed the bat .