Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: Charmyna on February 18, 2014, 09:46:07 AM
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I can tell you this is one of the most fun and awesome builds I ever made! In the recent ten games I played it worked so perfectly I cant tell you how awesome it is.
So the basic idea is to use the Battle Forge and some Crystals + Moonglow Amulet to gain more actions and mana. The Forge then is used to cast many defensive stuff on the Wizard which in addition to defensive enchantments makes him nearly immune against most attacks.
To slow down the opponents buildup the Obelisk, Essence Drain and Suppression Cloak are used.
After all defensive stuff is set up the Banker starts getting rid of the opponents defensive enchants/equip and banking actions on the Opponent (Poisoned Blood+Mage Bane+Nullify) and on himself to increase the damage output when it comes to the Blast (Hawkeye, Dancing Scimitar, Fireshapers Ring).
After this preparation the Banker saved like 30-40 mana and the opponent should be left without any dragonscale hauberk or defensive enchantment (at least not in play).
Now the Blast starts: In a round the opponent has Ini, at the end the Banker casts a Fireball by himself and a Wizards Tower, which casts another Fireball. Next round the Banker has Ini and often is able to finish the opponent off with some more Fireballs/Flameblasts and with the help of the banked enchantments which prevent healing etc.
Its also important to note that a Mage Wand and/or Elemental Wand casted by the Forge really help this build since they allow to prepare for alot of the opponents defensive reactions (like the Banker has a Dissolve/Explode on the Mage Wand against a possible Dragonscale Hauberk, a Seeking Dispel and a Dispel in his hand and a Fireball on the Elemental Wand).
In all the games so far, after I started the Blast it was a matter of 2-3 rounds depending on how much defensive stuff the opponent had left.
I guess this build works so well because of the current meta. Neither high armor on Mage nor Interceptors are used that much - at least not in Octgn.
If you want to see the Blasting Banker in action, in this post you can find links to streams including audio comments:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13428.0
Here is the book (its a Fire Wizard):
Attack Spells:
Surging Wave 1
Jet Stream 1
Acid Ball 1
Geyser 1
Fireball 3
Flameblast 2
Conjurations:
Wizards Tower 1
Hand of Bim-Shalla 1
Mana Crystal 2
Battle Forge 2
Mordok's Obelisk 1
Enchantments:
Nullify 4
Rhino Hide 1
Regrowth 2
Poisoned Blood 2
Enchantment Transfusion 3
Hawkeye 1
Essence Drain 1
Agony 1
Divine Protection 1
Magebane 1
Force Orb 1
Armor Ward 1
Equipment:
Mage Wand 2
Dragonscale Hauberk 3
Leather Gloves 2 (or 1 switching with Leather Boots)
Leather Boots 1 (or 2 switching with Leather Boots)
Veterants Belt 2
Fireshaper Ring 1
Moonglow Amulet 1
Wand of Healing 1
Suppression Cloak 1
Dancing Scimitar 1
Arcane Ring 1
Elemental Wand 1
Incantations:
Teleport 2
Dispel 6
Seeking Dispel 4
Dissolve 6
Minor Heal 1
(Might add an Explode in the future)
Creatures:
Darkfenne Bat 1
Here is the link where you can download my actual Blasting Banker build (might be a bit different from the list posted) for the Octgn Deck Builder:
http://octgn.net/sd/charmyna/the_blasting_banker
Newest Iteration:
Attack Spells:
Surging Wave 1
Jet Stream 1
Fireball 3
Flameblast 2
Conjurations:
Wizards Tower 1
Hand of Bim-Shalla 1
Mana Crystal 1
Battle Forge 2
Mordok's Obelisk 1
Enchanters Wardstone 1
Mana Syphon 1
Enchantments:
Nullify 5
Rhino Hide 3
Regrowth 2
Poisoned Blood 1
Enchantment Transfusion 3
Essence Drain 1
Agony 1
Divine Protection 1
Force Orb 1
Equipment:
Mage Wand 4
Dragonscale Hauberk 4
Leather Gloves 1
Leather Boots 1
Veterants Belt 2
Fireshaper Ring 1
Moonglow Amulet 1
Wand of Healing 2
Suppression Cloak 2
Deflection Bracers 1
Eagleclaw Boots 1
Arcane Ring 1
Elemental Wand 1
Incantations:
Teleport 2
Dispel 6
Seeking Dispel 4
Dissolve 6
Minor Heal 1
Explode 1
Removed some level two out of school spells (Dancing Scimitar, Armor Ward) and included some more defensive equips/enchants - especially Eagleclaw Boots in case the BB gets trapped in a zone with two Walls. Added a 2nd Suppression Cloak since its just too good against creature builds and added a 2nd Healing Wand to help against Corrode Tokens.
Im thankful for any comment and if you tried this build/a similar one or played against it pls share your experiences :).
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I'm currently working on a similar forcemaster build using spores instead of wands and melee attacks in place of ranged. I haven't quite gotten it working yet so I have a few questions. 1) How high do you try to get your channeling? 2) Against aggressive builds do you try to weather the storm until you've got everything in place or do you spring the trap early without a full setup? 3) Do you find more success mitigating armor with an acid splash wand or a dissolve wand?
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A really interesting build as usual, Charmyna, this time from a surprising new angle.
This is the old-style Nuke Fire Wizard with Curse Transfusion and Mana Denial all in one.
I'm surprised there is no Suppression Orb? Also Enchanter's Wardstones against Purge Magic?
Mana Denial is best entered all-in: I see Obelisk, Cloak, Ward & Essence (vs. main Elite) but not those?
In contrast, Hand of Bim-Shalla feels like a Zone Exclusive luxury and as for Darkfenne Bat - did you mean Hydra?
I guess this build works so well because of the current meta. Neither high armor on Mage nor Interceptors are used that much - at least not in Octgn.
I'm surprised at this.
Veteran's Belt surely meant everyone goes High Armour?
Guardian Angel is standard in Holy Mages and Gargoyle in Gate to Voltari builds (nobody plays Warlord sadly)
This then leads to plenty of Corrode which then leads to Healing Wand to remove it.
OCTGN seems to have a very different meta to my local one.
With your insight about OCTGN's meta, I can see how this works.
But compare this to Tarkin's Priestess or Indy's 2 aggro books, both posted in the last 24hrs
Does this really work??? After Tarkin taught me a lesson on Meditation Amulet, I'm reluctant to cast hasty judgement.
If it does, I think it may be more its surprise factor and an indication of different skill levels against (some) opponents
Everyone knows you are one of the best players in the world
So maybe this proves that play skill, rather than book, is more important in this game?
(This also explains how Tarkin's Priestess beat 2 Grizzly FM)
I am going to have to take some time to digest if (a variant of) this build would be viable in my different local meta.
But I suspect your good results may be more a disparity in skill level (and interface familiarity) and the OCTGN meta.
The problem with these Near Solo builds (like Forcemaster) is you are so behind on Action Advantage.
Even with Wizard's Tower and what I assume is a Hydra guarding Obelisk tax, I'm surprised this works so well.
Where previously mana-intensive attack spells have been finishers, here you suggest they are a Win Condition?
Don't get me wrong - it's a strong well-thought out build but it's certainly a very high skill level build to pilot well.
I hope you're not offended by my feedback - there are many compliments in there.
I look forward to eating humbie pie yet again!
I do hope this build works against the armoured mages I face as it would prove the diversity of this great game.
Oh - and it's good to know you no longer think "It's ALL about the spell points!" :)
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I built a few days ago a Druid spellbook that is similar, in conception, to your creation. I chose her instead of the Wizard because I had no spellbook with her (I'm tired of my aggro Rouse the plant thing) and I still want to keep my Watergate to handle it to my girlfriend and playtest against it. In addition, Tanglevine x5 playable from the Vine tree deals with interceptors quite good. Wizard and Druid are, in my opinion, the best mages at this because they are extremely hard to kill (voltaric and treebond soak a lot of damage).
I wanted a new approach on her and decided to go with the solo route with many attack spells, using Elemental wand to cast many Hurl rocks on my opponent once I've finished armoring and enchanting myself and Acid balls has erased my opponent's armor. I haven't got the chance to test it yet, so I have no idea of how it will behave. But now that I've read how you've found this strategy to be viable, I am more confident with my awkward spellbook :D
Do you have any streams of this?
Edit: I've now read that you have uploaded streams on your page. Time to check them!
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A really interesting build as usual, Charmyna, this time from a surprising new angle.
This is the old-style Nuke Fire Wizard with Curse Transfusion and Mana Denial all in one.
I'm surprised there is no Suppression Orb? Also Enchanter's Wardstones against Purge Magic?
Mana Denial is best entered all-in: I see Obelisk, Cloak, Ward & Essence (vs. main Elite) but not those?
In contrast, Hand of Bim-Shalla feels like a Zone Exclusive luxury and as for Darkfenne Bat - did you mean Hydra?
I guess this build works so well because of the current meta. Neither high armor on Mage nor Interceptors are used that much - at least not in Octgn.
I'm surprised at this.
Veteran's Belt surely meant everyone goes High Armour?
Guardian Angel is standard in Holy Mages and Gargoyle in Gate to Voltari builds (nobody plays Warlord sadly)
This then leads to plenty of Corrode which then leads to Healing Wand to remove it.
OCTGN seems to have a very different meta to my local one.
With your insight about OCTGN's meta, I can see how this works.
But compare this to Tarkin's Priestess or Indy's 2 aggro books both posted in the last 24hrs
Does this really work???
If it does, I think it's more an indication of different skill levels between players
Everyone knows you are one of the best players in the world
So maybe this proves that play skill, rather than book, is more important in this game?
(This also explains how Tarkin's Priestess beat 2 Grizzly FM)
I'm going to have to take some time to digest if a variant of this build is actually possible in my different local meta.
But I suspect your good results may be more a disparity in skill level (and interface familiarity) and the OCTGN meta.
The problem with these Near Solo builds (like Forcemaster) is you are so behind on Action Advantage.
Even with Wizard's Tower and what I assume is a Hydra guarding Obelisk tax, I'm surprised this works so well.
Don't get me wrong - it's a strong well-thought out build but it's ceratinly a very high skill level build to pilot well.
I hope you're not offended by my feedback - there are many compliments on your skill level too.
Oh - and it's good to know you no longer think "It's ALL about the spell points!" :)
Im not offended at all! I asked for feedback and im happy about every constructive feedback (glad we dont have much if any trolls in here besides the bridge ones ;)).
About mana denial: Sure, often a strategy works best if you enter all in. But, this is not my main strategy. Its to keep the opponent busy till I am set up. Therefore, I dont want to spend too many spellpoints in mana denial. A suppression sometimes can be too much in the sense that an Obelisk already makes the opponent play like hes not used to (e.g. Necros playing far less creatures and not using their action advantage from the spawnpoints).
The Hand of Bim-Shalla is against curse builds because against those the extra one life per round is really useful.
The Bat is for even more "banking" since if the rot hits the opponent, i guess many dont feel like to remove it that urgently since its only slowly ticking and they are not under pressure at that time. Still, later when the Blast starts, they will feel it ticking! Btw im not too sure about the Bat, wouldnt mind replacing it. More a fun card. Still, many players go crazy when they see a potential rot and have nothing to remove it :) (including me sometimes).
@high armor and vet belt: I thought so too. I really wonder when people in Octgn will start equipping much more armor. This build still might work against those builds that dont bring enough copies of defensive equip since it got so many dissolves. Still, it would be alot more difficult for sure.
Not enough time for now. Will write more later.
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What would you do against a Decoy (to pop Nullify) + Purge Magic? I have feeling it would set you back so much...
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I'm a bit worried my comments about Charmyna beating OCTGN players will be misconstrued.
I've had a good-humoured warning PM from someone I consider a friend on this forum.
So, because I don't have Dragonscale (Flame -2), I'm re-posting my reply to him on public.
I never said OCTGN players "sucked"! And certainly not YOU!
I just said the skill difference between Charmyna (so far ahead) and his capable opponents may be a contributor
As well as the low armour meta anomaly which feels so contrary to the amazingness that is Veteran's Belt
I'm just surprised such a mana-intensive action-poor build is unbeaten!
You have to admit Tarkin's Priestess and Indy's 2 Aggro Books (variants on posted) looked very strong bulds.
I freely gave them compliments because I would be happy to pick up any of those spellbooks and pilot them.
I just found it hard to swallow the viability of Blaster Banker piloted by Joe Average or even a competent player.
Unlike the other 3 spellbooks I have mentioned, I would not be comfortable piloting it as it breaks all the rules.
It's actually a Bat!!! And I thought it was a Hydra guarding the Obelisk and Tower! A Bat!!! Seriously?
I honestly don't get it but, after being burned on Meditation Amulet, I'm gonna have to suck it and see myself.
I am really setting myself for a huge helping of humble pie here!
But hey, it's fun to be friendly opinionated and be proved wrong.
Before I get Angry OCTGN emails (I know yours was good humoured), I think I will post this public with an apology.
I never said OCTGN players suck so please don't flame me! :)
I hereby apologise to all OCTGN players who were offended by my comments about disparity in skill level.
I would be thrashed by Charmyna too, both on OCTGN and IRL (hopefully less thrashed).
However, for those of you who have been beaten TWICE by this strategy, I say:
"Fooled by him once, shame on him. Fooled by him twice, shame on you!" :)
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I didn't hear you saying OCTGN players were below average, just that Charmyna is above average and the OCTGN meta is different from your local meta. I have to agree that he is a top notch player. I have never faced him in the arena, but watching his work I know he is more than competent. And every meta is different.
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I have a different insight on why low armor is the current metagame: Acid Ball.
It used to be that Leather Gloves and Leather Boots were superior to, say Rhino Hide because it cost seperate Dissolve/Explodes to remove each piece. By having many different pieces of armor, it was possible to ensure having some armor almost all the time. Now a player can have a good chance of trading 1 Acid Ball (5 mana + 1 action) for Leather Boots and Leather Gloves (4 mana + 2 actions), and still have a good chance of getting a critical damage in on top of it!
I also think that in a high-Acid Ball metagame, Veterans' Belt is weakened. If an opponent can corrode/Dissolve all of your armor, they don't care about your Veterans Belt. Playing the belt (which is quite powerful if all is going well) is an opportunity for an opponent to gain advantage without having to directly counteract it.
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I have a different insight on why low armor is the current metagame: Acid Ball.
It used to be that Leather Gloves and Leather Boots were superior to, say Rhino Hide because it cost seperate Dissolve/Explodes to remove each piece. By having many different pieces of armor, it was possible to ensure having some armor almost all the time. Now a player can have a good chance of trading 1 Acid Ball (5 mana + 1 action) for Leather Boots and Leather Gloves (4 mana + 2 actions), and still have a good chance of getting a critical damage in on top of it!
I also think that in a high-Acid Ball metagame, Veterans' Belt is weakened. If an opponent can corrode/Dissolve all of your armor, they don't care about your Veterans Belt. Playing the belt (which is quite powerful if all is going well) is an opportunity for an opponent to gain advantage without having to directly counteract it.
That is a very good point! There are ways to remove corrode tokens but the action efficient ones are only accessible to specific mages (e.g. priestess and druid). The general methods to remove tokens cost more actions than acid ball (healing wand, renewing spring). Still one way to go is to replace your body armor (e.g. dragonscale hauberk). Since you will always have two armor after reequipping. This doesnt change much about veterans belt being week in a high acid ball meta though. Since with only two total armor, the belt isnt that useful.
@Interceptors: Sure they will be annoying when it comes to the blast. But, the opponent has to spend quite some mana into getting an interceptor which will do nothing but sits there till the Blasts begins ...
In addition, I guess playing the Banker I would just bank even more mana and cast the wizard tower before the Blast starts. Next round I start with a four zone teleport away from the interceptor and into the range of the wizards tower (almost at the end of the current action phase). So chances arent too bad that the opponent will still get hit by two fireballs in that round and by two fireballs+flameblast (to counter a block casted in QC phase) in the subsequent round. The Interceptor will have saved him from a fireball thats granted, but it will not save him from one every round. So unless the opponent still has some armor left, I doubt he will survive ...
So, the best answer against the Banker IMO still is to invest many spellpoints into defensive equip+enchantments. But, most dont put body armor+leather stuff more than twice in their spellbook - not even if they include more than one veterans belt.
@Darkfenne Bat: Its an experiment. In some games it increases my chances to kill him quickly later, if he got some damage on him before the Blast starts (he might not care about a few points of damage). In some games the Bat is killed quickly but often the opponent invested more resources than I did since he was so scared of a potential rot.
@Not guarding Obelisk or Tower: The Obelisk is just meant to be a distraction for the opponents creatures to give me time for equipping my mage and banking mana/actions. I dont want to spent too many resources into guarding him. One reason I dont cast creatures besides the bat is, that damaging them is by far more efficient than damaging my mage! A reason why this build works possibly is that the opponents creatures dont have easy targets to damage.
@action disadvantage for solo mages: The Battle Forge helps immense here! I use it every round. Btw a couple small creatures dont really give the opponent an action advantage. They barely scratch my Wizard. Sure, they will kill my conjurations but until then the conjurations payed for themself.
One big creature can slowly damage my Mage, but it needs to roll like six crits to get through vet belt+voltaric shield. Sure he might use the attacks from his small creatures to trigger my shield, but he still needs to roll three crits to do that. And then my Wizard got regrowth.
In the end, if you really want to damage this mage you need a couple of dispels/dissolves.
@Tarkins Priestess build:
It looks very solid. I played the Priestess with a similar opening (Forge+Cleric in round one, Temple +using meditation amulet in round two) and found it quite attracting. Against the Banker his build will have the advantage of potentially more actions from the two spawnpoints. Since he will often use the meditation amulet I guess, he somehow "looses" an action again. So action wise we might be equal. Channeling wise his build has an advantage because of the meditation amulet. But, at least till the Obelisk is dead this might be countered by the upkeep.
The biggest issue with Tarkins build will be his defensive equip+Forge. Still, after dissolving his four armor granting items he will be left with only a divine protection and a useless veterans belt which wont be enough to survive the blast. Since he has "only" three dispels/seeking dispels and four dissolves my Mage would be left with enough defensive stuff to survive many rounds. Therefore I feel like the Banker has good chances at winning.
In the end as you said before what often matters more than the build is player skill. Especially if the Banker faces his Priestess I guess the game will be decided by who stacks more minor mistakes and maybe a well placed Divine Intervention which could work alot in his favor.
Another issue which might be in his favor is the potential healing from the clerics. I cant just dispel that ... I can hope he uses his dispels against something else than poisoned blood though. Mhh he has two purify so its unlikely my poisoned blood sticks. I guess I would try to kill the clerics with the scimi+maybe a zap before the blast starts if I feel like I got enough time.
Well, actually if he uses interceptors and I need to teleport him anyway, that will help against his clerics for a while as well. So hopefully he has no teleport left by that time (or didnt trigger the nullify on him).
Its so many "when"s and "if"s but thats what I like about MW - many ways to treat a given situation :).
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Wow! Great analysis of the match-up. :D
I absolutely agree with you: what an awesome game!!!
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Yes, awesome analysis and counter-arguments on all points, Charmyna.
Looking back, it's a bit amusing seeing my genuine shock in my PM about the Bat - that really threw me.
I actually thought this was some sort of German Practical Joke! :)
If this works, then I'm thinking my Necromancer Mana Denial Curses build with just 1 Eternal Knight may work too.
Uses Cloak of Shadows + kiting (Cheetah/Mongoose/4 Enfeebles) to Transfuse Curses from self to bypass Nullify.
I put it on hold because I didn't feel Necro + Forge + just Eternal Knight was sufficient actions in the current meta.
Your build, Charmyna, has certainly opened my eyes that it's possible.
"BB" is a very high skill book to pilot (unlike Golem Pit or Brute Squad which you can write an algorithm to play).
Oh, how I envy all you guys with your vibrant meta.
The only way I get locals to play me is if I use my playtest cards to "coo!" over then give them the print-out cards.
I shall learn OCTGN soon and be humiliated by you, Charmyna, like so many others.
(Poor sIKE is still obsessing over losing with his Necro to BB even though Mana Denial was always going to win)
I have a different insight on why low armor is the current metagame: Acid Ball.
It used to be that Leather Gloves and Leather Boots were superior to, say Rhino Hide because it cost seperate Dissolve/Explodes to remove each piece. By having many different pieces of armor, it was possible to ensure having some armor almost all the time. Now a player can have a good chance of trading 1 Acid Ball (5 mana + 1 action) for Leather Boots and Leather Gloves (4 mana + 2 actions), and still have a good chance of getting a critical damage in on top of it!
I also think that in a high-Acid Ball metagame, Veterans' Belt is weakened. If an opponent can corrode/Dissolve all of your armor, they don't care about your Veterans Belt. Playing the belt (which is quite powerful if all is going well) is an opportunity for an opponent to gain advantage without having to directly counteract it.
Firstly, you make a good point, AW: I fully appreciate that Corrode was designed to combat a Heavy Armour meta
That's why Healing Wand (or Priestess) is de rigeur, even if not action-efficient (Acid Ball does not equal Corrode 2)
What I find is a slight double standards is that, if there is so much Corrode, what is Blasting Banker's answer to it?
You have to Corrode his armour down to zero before replacing works as removal (Forge does it but mana inefficient)
There was an intrinsic dichotomy in the meta-assumption used here:
(a) I am relying on a low armour meta on OCTGN because of Corrode
(b) I am perfectly safe playing High Armour with no Corrode removal
That crux is what I initially found to be a flawed premise in the build.
Which is why I've been building a direct damage "banked mana" build which assumes High Armour by both mages
As my answer to High Armour was to go down a direct damage route.
(As it was your request, Tarkin, in "How to beat the Wiz", I will get the build fine-tuned but I'm sure you've tried it.)
Just when you think you've seen all the current meta has to show you, we get a sudden spate of interesting builds.
Damn, this game is awesome!
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There was an intrinsic dichotomy in the meta-assumption used here:
(a) I am relying on a low armour meta on OCTGN because of Corrode
(b) I am perfectly safe playing High Armour with no Corrode removal
That crux is what I initially found to be a flawed premise in the build.
I don't think this is an unusual dichotomy, it's just how metas work. X beats Y, so everyone stops using Y. Eventually, everyone stops bringing X because it mostly just counters Y and no one uses Y. Since no one uses X, an enterprising player is free to once again bring Y.
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I don't think this is an unusual dichotomy, it's just how metas work. X beats Y, so everyone stops using Y. Eventually, everyone stops bringing X because it mostly just counters Y and no one uses Y. Since no one uses X, an enterprising player is free to once again bring Y.
Good point, Webcatcher (dammit, why are games forums full of clever people? Probably why I like them)
However (there's always a "but" when I compliment), you have to admit the meta needs to be pretty mature to turn full circle.
Corrode is a DvN mechanic. I'm impressed at the dynamism of the OCTGN meta if it is already so mature to do this.
It also presumes 2 match-up variables
(a) you are not playing High Armour like me
(b) you are not playing Corrode
I contend that if one statement is false, the solid book and great play will triumph
However, what about the match-up where both variables are false?
Surely every Wizard's Tower has Acid Ball in its Toolbox?
Surely every Wizard leverages the synergy of High Armour + Veteran's Belt + Voltaric Shield?
Which is why I concluded that if Charmyna has beaten other Wizards with this, then it's due to his play skill.
I'm not attacking Charmyna (although I admit I'm not exactly endearing myself to OCTGN players on this forum).
In fact I've been profuse in my compliments.
But (there's always a "but") the fact that it is unbeaten just does not make sense.
Maybe because Charmyna has used Voltari as his spawnpoint and I've used Forge due to Golems/Spirits.
Maybe Watergate has so influenced the OCTGN meta while Golem Pit influenced my local meta down high armour.
I will test and I will no doubt need to eat huge helpings of humble pie (like I did over Procrastination Amulet).
I'm just speaking my honest impressions.
I hope it works because that means my build will work too.
But at best, I believe this to be a "moment in time" meta build that card gamers know all about.
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Remember that my experience is all from table top games and may not apply exactly, but I find that metas evolve pretty quickly. The first stage (X beats Y so everyone stops using Y) happens almost instantaneously. Most people will take Y out of their builds as soon as X is released because they know what's coming. The rest will follow within a couple of weeks. The next stage (everyone stops playing X because no one uses Y anymore) can take a few months to a year, but I bet in Mage Wars it happens pretty fast compared to a miniatures game because you can play a lot of games in a relatively short period and because there's a lot of competition for book space.
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My thoughts about Acid Ball: Corrode tokens are nice for sure but with only Acid Balls you will never be able to lower the opponents armor below two (unless he has only one body armor in his book). In the case of Druid its even worse since he can always go back to 4 armor with recasting his Barkskin+body armor and the Priestess just laughs about tokens . In addition many players use at least one card that allows to get rid of tokens in general (Wand of Healing or Renewing Spring).
So this tells me that even if I go the multi Acid Ball route I need at least enough Dissolves to get rid of all his body armor but one and his Wand of Healing. Then I need at least two dissolves against his two Mage/Dispel Wands (many got two at least).
Even with 4 dissolves I often feel the need of more. Therefore in most builds I run 6 dissolves. Equipment is just too good. Btw its also important to note that Dissolve is much more flexible than Acid Ball since the latter does not help against Mage Wands, Regrowth Belt, Reflex Boots etc.
In the end, since I spend quite some points into dissolves I dont want to spend even more points into a couple acid balls for tokens which might get removed at some point. I just stick to the dissolves which destroy the item for sure and are more flexible.
The reason I still play one Acid Ball in this build is the Wizards Tower. That way in some situations I can mimic a Dissolve with the Towers Action. Actually with the current build I dont cast the Tower till the Blast starts and at that point I prefer to have a Fireball/Flameblast on the Tower anyway. So I consider to remove even the last Acid Ball.
Still, I cant tell if other Octgn players share the same thoughts about Acid Ball and if this explains the low amount of Acid Balls at the moment.
@Removing corrode tokens with this build: In this spellbook there are two ways of removing corrode tokens: First, Wand of Healing and second, moving Rhino Hide with Transfusion and reequipping Body Armor. I admit, both are not action efficient. Still, they help giving the Banker the time needed to bank. Oh and I forgot: Acid Ball is the reason for Force Orb! If you consider that nearly half of the opponents Acid Balls go into Force Orb, Wand of Healing isnt that action inefficient any more.
If I feel like corrode tokens become a real problem, I might include Reflex Boots and Deflection Bracers in this Book. If the opponent Acid Balls me to zero Armor, I will replace the Leather Boots/Gloves with those two items. Then work my armor up from there.
If he Dissolves the Reflex Boots/Deflection Bracers later, I can equip the Leather Stuff again. In the end, I hope the opponent will regret to not have used Dissolve in the first place.
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@Removing corrode tokens with this build: In this spellbook there are two ways of removing corrode tokens: First, Wand of Healing and second, moving Rhino Hide with Transfusion (...)
If I recall correctly, the latest FAQs stated that you can't use Enchantment transfusion to move one enchantment from a creature onto the same creature (i.e. no transfusion at all). So you would have to move Rhino hide to an opponent's creature and spend a second Enchantment transfusion and quick action to move the enchantment back to you.
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@Removing corrode tokens with this build: In this spellbook there are two ways of removing corrode tokens: First, Wand of Healing and second, moving Rhino Hide with Transfusion (...)
If I recall correctly, the latest FAQs stated that you can't use Enchantment transfusion to move one enchantment from a creature onto the same creature (i.e. no transfusion at all). So you would have to move Rhino hide to an opponent's creature and spend a second Enchantment transfusion and quick action to move the enchantment back to you.
That was the plan ;). As I said, its not action efficient. You get one armor per action - same as with the Wand of Healing.
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That was the plan ;). As I said, its not action efficient. You get one armor per action - same as with the Wand of Healing.
But Wand of Healing is a permanent item and can be reused if corrode continues to be a problem; hence, you include it in your build. In addition, having this equipment on the table acts as a deterrent, i.e. you're opponent will be less likely to throw an Acid ball on you if he sees a Wand of Healing.
Nonetheless, your plan is still useful to save important enchantments. You evil trickster! :D
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My question stay... What do you do against a purge magic?
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That was the plan ;). As I said, its not action efficient. You get one armor per action - same as with the Wand of Healing.
But Wand of Healing is a permanent item and can be reused if corrode continues to be a problem; hence, you include it in your build. In addition, having this equipment on the table acts as a deterrent, i.e. you're opponent will be less likely to throw an Acid ball on you if he sees a Wand of Healing.
Nonetheless, your plan is still useful to save important enchantments. You evil trickster! :D
Sure, against corrode tokens the Wand of Healing is better. Still, it might get dissolved quickly if my opponent plans to use more Acid Balls. So I could either include two Wand of Healings or one Wand of Healing and two Enchantment Transfusion. I prefer the latter since they can be used against corrode tokens if in desperate need of armor, but they also can be used for other tricks.
My question stay... What do you do against a purge magic?
This is one reason for putting in three Enchantment Transfusion and four Nullify: In an ideal case, both my mage and the opponents mage have a Nullify+ Enchantment Transfusion on them. So, before the opponent can Purge Magic his or my mage, he first needs to get rid of three of these enchants! Otherwise his Purge Magic gets either nullified or the enchants are moved away from the Purge Magics Target.
You might think: Thats alot of actions for enchants that might never be used. Youre right, so in most games I just cast one Enchantment Transfusion on the mage that has the biggest number of my enchantments stacked - often thats my Wizard. Still, since in those situations I got like two or three hidden enchants on the Opponent as well, I guess he often is afraid of a double Nullify+Transfusion combo.
Anyway, I think because of the Nullify+Transfusion combo the majority of non-wizard builds and even most of the wizard builds dont include Purge Magic. Another reason not many include it might be that Purge Magic removes your own enchants as well. So if you plan on using Poisoned Blood, Marked for Death etc. on your Opponent you might not feel like Purge Magic is worth all those spellpoints.
Think about it in this way: Wont you prefer to have two more Dispel and a Seeking Dispel in most of your Spellbooks instead of a really seldomly used Purge Magic that has the risk of failing? I definitively prefer the Dispels!
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This is one reason for putting in three Enchantment Transfusion and four Nullify
I'm sorry, Charmyna, but I'm daring to take issue with you here (gulp). Apologies if my explanation is very obvious to you but I think that, just like I took issue with your "It's all about the spell points!" claim, you are overselling control in MW.
Not unexpectedly considering Golem Pit's trap, I'm a big fan of Enchantment Transfusion, a combo enabler in this game as it allows more than 2 consecutive spell actions (without resorting to ready marker actions) and action bursts (or fleeting "windows of opportunity" as I called it) which is what combo is in a game of pick any 2 spells you can freely sequence.
However, I've seen a few posts recently that place Enchantment Transfusion on this pedestal as some sort of "pinnacle" of control.
If you have Transfusion Nullify on a bystander creature (even enemy), you have "true control" as opposed to "soft control" of just Nullify.
That is why you never waste an action: it only costs 1 mana (with Ring) to place a Nullify or Transfusion on an ally, setting up defenses.
However, let's not forget these facts: using Enchantment Transfusion means you have additionally paid...
+1 spell point (assuming Wizard)
+1-2 to cast it
+1 mana per enchantment moved (Arcane Ring discount on Nullify)
most importantly, +1 quick action
You pay this Premium for a timed counter of a spell, whether Dispel, Seeking Dispel, Dissolve (assuming Nullify ready as well) etc.
The designers have deliberately made it hard to put a "stranglehold" of control on the game as such denial cleverness is just not fun.
Because you do pay a steep premium but sometimes it's worth it as denying some critical spells are more important than others.
I contend a proper Aggro book will play at such a fast tempo that you should never get a chance to set up 2 card combo defenses.
As for...
Wont you prefer to have two more Dispel and a Seeking Dispel in most of your Spellbooks instead of a really seldomly used Purge Magic that has the risk of failing?
I believe this is disingenuous. Sometimes, when I know I've been so aggressive as to remove all Nullify protection, 1 quick spell action to remove 3 enchantments that cost 3 quick spell actions and more mana than the 11 (ring) to Purge is key to regaining Tempo Advantage. Forcemaster uses it with Steal Equipment against Dragonscale in an Armour Ward meta or a canny Wizard may use Steal Enchantment in a meta full of Wizards with Rhino Hide + Regrowth + Divine Protection. If I spend the same mana but less actions than you, I am up on the deal (because I am playing short game tempo, not long game attrition, I'm willing to pay more SPs). Just the knowledge I'm a Wizard is enough to prevent enchantment stacking against a potential Purge Magic. Else for just mere 12-1 mana and a quick action, you lose Bear Strength + Mongoose Agility + Forcefield.
You claim "I have Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify ready to counter" but how do you trade 2 actions for my 1 to deny me?
Transfusion Nullify is great in theory. Yes, it does sometimes work and I love it when it does. But it's overrated. Because a good player shouldn't give you time to gain 2 actions when he only had 1. A good player doesn't attack when he sees no possible Nullify protection. He Dissolves your Armour instead. Just like you state how you systematically Dissolve an enemy Wizards' Armour.
Enchantment Transfusion is best used for multiple enchantments (like Force Crush + Curses on the turn that you cast 2 Wardstones) because the penalty paid (mainly +1 extra banked action) is minimised for a sudden burst of banked actions that you get.
I don't understand where you find time to cast all of these control enchantments. As players should pressure you long before you have cast 7 Armour + Veterans Belt + Regen 2 + Aegis 1 (which, even with a Forge, takes time).
I used to play a game called Diplomacy. I was good at it, a force at European and Worlds. What I learnt is just a "name to be feared" is enough to psychologically defeat an opponent. Good players made mistakes against me they would never otherwise make. Because they had mentally accepted they would lose. So they did. Even though they could have easily beaten me. A feared reputation becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I sometimes watch your excellent podcasts and ask: "why are your opponents so afraid, giving you so much time to gain control?"
You're an amazingly strong player, Charmyna. But if you're honest, you'll admit you shouldn't be given time to do these "tricks".
The 2 Grizzlies Forcemaster build does not care that she spends 24 points on just 2 creatures. Because it's NOT "all about the spell points". It's quite often having the perfect spell for that tiny window of opportunity you have. And yes, 1 quick action Purge Magic when you know he has no Nullify protection can be priceless in turning the tempo to your advantage as you just spent less actions and mana.
Even the concept of negative denial is very difficult to execute in MW (thank goodness else it will be as dull as playing against Magic Control decks). You have 6 Dispels for my 6 Bear Strengths on my 4 Raptor Vines? All it means is you have spent equal to me (less Ring discounts) - yet I have gained 6 attacks with +2 dice when I reveal them. Denial in MW is by definition giving opponent who plays well at least 1 use of that spell you deny. As with Enchantment Transfusion, the designers have deliberately put control at a disadvantage. Otherwise, it would be too strong. Not all opponent spell actions are equal. Sometimes, it's worth spending more actions with Transfusion Nullify to prevent a spell action (like Purge). But it's a mistake on your opponents' part if they do not see the possibility and guard against it.
I watch your play and I have nothing but admiration at the quality of your play, Charmyna.
However I also get frustrated at watching some of your opponents' Fear at attacking you.
It's this Fear which allows you to feel Transfusion Nullify protects you from Purge Magic.
That you can freely Dissolve all your opponent's Armour but they can't do it back to you?
What are they doing instead then?
Your success is richly deserved and I've always said you're one of the best players in the world.
However, I hope you'll agree part of the reason why these builds work for you is because of fear.
You've psychologically beaten most of your opponents with your reputation before the first move.
But the main reason is the game rewards skill more than book-building and you're incredibly skillful.
Transfuse Nullify is hard to repeatedly pull off against good opponents (it's better used for multiple shifts to bypass Nullify).
Purge Magic is a meta card in the game: even if you don't play it, you have to account for it when playing against a Wizard.
Just as with your "it's ALL about the spell points!" claim that I disagreed with, I'm sorry that I have to disagree with you here.
I hope you don't take this disagreement of "always being in control" in the wrong spirit as I have the utmost respect for you.
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I so much agree with you here DeckBuilder.
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I really love this sort of debates! :D
To be honest, even though I see all the theoretical potential of Enchantment transfusion (I love this combo-ish cards and I've even written an article in my blog about it), in my MW career I haven't had the opportunity to take my time and settle a Transfused Nullify more than once or twice. My opponents are so rude that will go after me since the very beginning of the game and I will be busy enough trying to survive to waste precious actions on Enchantment transfusion. But that's just my experience and I don't get to play as much as I'd like to.
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First, I really dont mind your disagreement DeckBuilder! I am really grateful for it since such discussions help many of us (me included for sure) to learn alot and to rethink our positions. I guess the most important things I learned about MW came from this forum - especially from my own wrong assumptions that were revealed by this great community.
@Enchantment Transfusion: In general I agree with you. Transfusion has some considerable extra costs - especially the extra action. So, if the opponent is a solo mage investing the majority of his actions into getting rid of my defensive equips/enchants, I will not be able to use Transfusion. In this situation I guess I would only use Nullify and the two most important enchants (IMO): Rhino Hide and Regrowth. Well I might add Force Orb if he starts using Acid Ball. But im not sure about that.
I cant tell you why, but in the last twenty games played via Octgn if I remember correctly I never played against a solo mage! The opponent had at least one big creature and most of them had three creatures or more. In those matches the opponent focused the Obelisk and the Forge before my mage, which gave me plenty of time to setup my armor and often I had time to add Nullify+Transfusion - especially if the opponent used his mages action to attack.
Against a solo mage that focuses my mage quickly with curses and/or dispels/dissolves+direct attacks I am sure this build will have a hard time - but thats not a great surprise since its somehow a mirror match and its quite natural to have 50% win chance in mirror matches. I guess my own medicine will taste bitter ;).
I dont know if the psychological component you talked about plays a role in my matches. My guess is that the more important factor is the absence of solo mages. Non-solo mages naturally use actions/spellpoins for other stuff besides equip/enchants on their mage and removing those from my mage. This action difference allows me to cast all the defensive stuff which makes all their small/medium creatures barely hurt me.
Talking about getting armor up quickly: I start with Battle Forge+Crystal in round 1. If the opponent starts slowly (i.e. casting spawnpoints/crystals etc) I get some more channeling increasing stuff in round 2. If he plays very aggressively and moves twice in round 1, I can still cast a Dragonscale Hauberk with the Forge and a Rhino Hide in QC phase of round 2. So even if the opponent has Initiative in round 2, before he can target me with anything (he needs to move again to do so), I got 4 armor. The second card I would prefer in that scenario is a regrowth since I will benefit from that even if I cast it on me after he attacked me. If he used curses on my mage (e.g. Magebane, Ghoul Rot, Poisoned Blood) the Regrowth will either "counter" the Ghoul Rot or make him reveal Poisoned Blood which allows me to Dispel it soon.
In round 3 if he attacked me, I would get a Veterans Belt, Leather Gloves and a Hand of Bimshalla. So we are talking about 5 Armor now, Vet Belt, Voltaric Shield and 3 healing per round. So I doubt an Opponent mainly relying on attack spells would be successful.
The more realistic case is an opponent which uses curses and many Dispels/Dissolves. His disadvantage will be that he can only use two actions per round to remove my defensive stuff (unless he got a Familiar/Wizards Tower) and I got three actions to build up stuff with the Forge. My disadvantage will be that I have to react - in the case of curses this means I might not be able to prevent the damage.
In the end against such a solo mage this build will surely be not as successful as described in the OP. Especially using Transfusion might be too costly action wise.
@Its all about spellpoints: I admit this is not the case for all builds. Still, a provocative thesis helps starting a fruitful discussion :). I furthermore admit that a Purge Magic might be very useful for certain builds. Its just Ive always found it hard to justify in my own builds - even as a Wizard. There are soo many nice cards I dont want to miss and which are used much more often than Purge Magic. Maybe if I play against you (DeckBuilder) and you show me how devastating Purge Magic is (im sure it can be in the right situation) I will hole up (for a while) ashamed ;).
@Transfusion tricks:
Recently I had quite a long game I partly lost because of Transfusion: I played Druid against a Warlock who casted Adramelech in round 2. Guess my first mistake was trying too desperately to defend my treebonded Vine Tree. Thereby I lost so much resources which should have been invested into the post Vine Tree battle. Thanks to the awesome survivability of the Druid I somehow managed to get up a Grizzly with Bear Strength and Eagle Wings. I was so happy to use the grizzlies 10 dice attack (with HoBS) against his soo annoying Adramelech!!! Guess what? He revealed Transfusion on his Mage and moved Reverse Attack to Adra. NOOOOO! If I remember correctly my Grizzly survived, but from this Hit I could never recover. Maybe next time I play a Falcon Precision even if the Opponent has no defence at all!
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This is good information. My problem with banking actions has been that my opponent will often be in my face before I feel like I have enough actions banked.
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Its the fricken Wizards Tower too, if that mage comes on that quickly you bound for a Dissolve (being this aggressive means one piece of armor) and WoT Push Push, game. He didn't put that piece in his write up. He lost with a Druid not a Wizard.
This is why the Wizard is still the top dog in the OCTGN meta. Next game the last one only lasted 20 minutes. So now you slow down, armor up, pull out a big. In the interim 4-5 rounds, he's dropped BF 2=3 crystals, has a ton of armor, Nullify hidden, and a Dissolve Wand. And guess what, he is waiting on you to come for him. So you do fatty at your side (picture in your mind a fatty of your choice remember your at no later than round five and had to armor up, get a Nullify on, try to get the Dice up on your attack, and get a fatty out), he ignores your big as he is five armor, vShield, and such. He first tries to teleport you mage from your big so as to separate you, you Nullify counters, he Dissolves your armor. If he has played his typical game, it is the end of your initiative, he puts on more equipment (Veterans Belt), QC's a Jinx on you, and brings out the Wizards Tower. Now you have a dilemma, next thing I cast, is a lost action. Do I wait and seeking dispel it next round? Or do I know this is coming (I do) and have something throw away planned (note I am now at an even bigger action advantage). Since he is only running himself he passes, I cast armor, he Dissolves and WT hits me with a Flameblast. Note now he is channeling 13-15 depending on how long it took me (did I mention amulet on him?).
I think you can see where the game is going. Unless he is running an very experimental deck it is just a very rough go at it. 30 or so games trying all manner of permutations and I still have nothing to beat a Wizard + Wizard Tower other than another Wizard and Wizard + Wizard Tower.
You might even say Ballista, surely those bad boys can hurt the WT. Well yes, but they burn so freaking easily, a fireball get 8 dice, they can not attack into the same zone, so a creature can camp in the zone and take a bite out of it. In may games I can get two shots off one for each Ballista then they are dead before I can fire them again. So now I throw in some Dwarf Panzergardes to protect the Ballista's with Intercept. I have done very little than save mana and get some armor on so as to not fall victim of WoTPP. I can get one Ballista + Dwarf out a turn for 42 mana. Now I don't even have the chance to fire both at the same time, but one at time. So what happens? Push + Fireball and Blue Gremlin in to finish it off. Ok fool me once, put a Nullify/Reverse Magic on the other Dwarf and he is on Guard. He sends the Blue Gremlin over to bite on the dwarf, fireball on Ballista #2. So once again you can see where this going. He has been spending 8 mana on a fireball each round, I have been desperately trying to protect my investment to no avail. In the interim, out of harms way, he has suited up, gotten Enchanters Ring out, and they (hidden Enchantments) are just dripping off of him. He is now ready to move in for the kill and I have almost nothing to show for my efforts.
Now most of my experience playing Charmyna has been pre-DvN, and this build doesn't even carry the hated Gorgon Archers, don't even get me started on those in the Watergate/GrizzWiz books.
I don't fear him, just respect the hell out of him, when he plays he doesn't make many mistakes at all, and when(if) I do he punishes you severely. If you watch my 2nd Necro vs. Druid game with him. I know I need to keep two zones between him and me to keep my Cloak of Shadows away from the Dissolve Wand. I did that, but moved mage so he was two away at the end of my initiative round. I realized quickly that I was in danger of loosing my Cloak, so I put on a Nullify. As I wrote earlier, he passed during 1st QC and I put on the Nullify. He moves down, tries to teleport me away from my zombies and Nullify and he Dissolves, the game went on from there, but that was when the game turned on me.
Why did I write all of this up? I just want people who are not playing on OCTGN to have a bit of a better understanding of the play and flow of play against this fearsome opponent. Truly would love to see some of these high level players from other games get on and play each other, I think they would be Fantastic games.
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Touched a nerve here, have we sIKE? ;D
Thanks for the great response, Charmyna.
All good stuff. We are all learning here.
You say you haven't played against a Wizard with BB?
I assume it will lose against Walled Altar of Skulls cheese?
How does it handle Hyper Aggro like 2 Grizzly FM?
In my only non playtest game recently, I thrashed a Wizard with Zombie Brute Squad.
Pestilence and Deathlock while chased by 4 Frenzied Brutes should hurt?
It's obviously a great build if unbeaten.
Just that I would feel naked playing Solo.
Congrats on your great results with it.
Would reply more but typing on phone.
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No not really, just trying to provide some insight into the play here on the OCTGN side of things.
Most of the cheese you refer to doesn't matter as he is focused on your mage and has high armor, shield, belt so the cheese is not important here. His goal (in practically every game) is to strip you of your armor and then kill you quickly, BB is just the latest iteration.
Even if you try to separate him from the BF with say walls, since it is not legendary, he runs two in his books (a total of 6 woping spell points) and just brings out another. Time is on his side....
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I think you can see where the game is going. Unless he is running an very experimental deck it is just a very rough go at it. 30 or so games trying all manner of permutations and I still have nothing to beat a Wizard + Wizard Tower other than another Wizard and Wizard + Wizard Tower.
Wizard Tower is a very potent card, giving +1 mana per turn and +1 quick attack spell per round for only 7 mana. It's main weakness is that it is fundamentally an aggressive card, since the attack spells a are mostly aggressive. (Arguably Geyser and Jet Stream have defensive uses.) The card is at its best if your build is looking to press an advantage, but I would argue mediocre most of the time because casting an attack spell is not always the action you want to take. Its other weakness is that its only slightly tougher than a mana crystal.
So what beats a Wizard Tower? Cards that make attack spells a poorer strategic choice, or that covert mana to damage at a very efficient ratio to attack the tower.
In particular, I feel like Druid + Vine Tree is very effective against Wizard Tower. Druid's regenerative abilities make her a very poor target for early game damage. Without needing to spend many resources on defense, the Druid can spend nearly all of her mana playing a grindy game of creature based attrition with plants and maybe a bear or two. The ability to Vine Summon allows the Druid to gain action/damage efficiency without having to sacrifice full actions, and without the usual spatial delay associated with a Spawnpoint. Attack spells are a very mana inefficient way to fight creatures, and I have yet to see a match vs. Druid where I felt like Wizard's Tower was a good investment.
In general I feel like almost any Battleforge based strategy that is at least moderately defensive should also be good vs. Wizard Tower. Other Spawnpoints also seem like they add the right sort of value vs. Wizard's Tower, though Battleforge is the only one that specifically makes Wizard's Tower weaker.
In general, I'm also not even certain that the efficiency of the Druid is required for a summoning based strategy or the positional advantage of a Vine Tree is required to overcome the Wizard's Tower with attrition.
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Here is IMO one of the most important things to keep in mind when fighting against multi-creature mages as a solo mage: If the opponent has Ini, his creatures are standing right on top of my mage and I know all will attack me this round. What will I do? I stand still and pass as long as possible!
Many dont want to use their mages action before the opponent used his mages action. So all creatures will attack my wizard. After that I move my Mage one zone and the opponent moves his one. Next round I have ini and move my mage again one zone at the start of the round. So his creatures will not be able to attack my Wiz this round unless they have fast. Next round they will all be able to attack me and the circle starts again.
Sure, teleport makes things more complex (for both sides). Therefore dissolving a Teleport Wand will be a high priority for both sides I guess.
Well, even without teleport the opponent might move his mage before mine and save his hardest hitter to move and attack after my wizard (if his hardest hitter is a grizzly he wont be able to use his full attack then).
Still, what this all leads to is that most of his creatures will not attack me every round (especially not if they are zombies). Counting in the voltaric shield+armor+belt on my mage it will take quite some rounds till his creatures get to the point where they come to a mana to damage ratio of 1:1 taking into account all the mana spend on the creatures (including teleport, enchantments etc). Btw the decelerating effect of Obelisk+Essence Drain+Suppression Cloak is just awesome for a solo mage!
Now, keep in mind that if I get to the point where I got rid of most of the opponent mages armor and there are an Hawkey+Fireshapers Ring on my Banker, the mana to damage ratio is better than 1:1 for Fireball (thanks to the burns) and for Flameblast even more!
So the main question in my experience is: Who can get rid of the opponents defensive stuff quicker? Often its the Banker since he is full of devotion to toughening himself and detoughening the opponent.
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Here is IMO one of the most important things to keep in mind when fighting against multi-creature mages as a solo mage: If the opponent has Ini, his creatures are standing right on top of my mage and I know all will attack me this round. What will I do? I stand still and pass as long as possible!
Many dont want to use their mages action before the opponent used his mages action. So all creatures will attack my wizard. After that I move him one zone and he moves his mage. Next round I have ini and move again one zone at the start of the round. So his creatures will not be able to attack me this round unless they have fast. Next round they will all be able to attack me and the circle starts again.
Sure, teleport makes things more complex (for both sides). Therefore dissolving a Teleport Wand will be a high priority for both sides I guess.
Well, even without teleport the opponent might move his mage before mine and save his hardest hitter to move and attack after my wizard (if his hardest hitter is a grizzly he wont be able to use his full attack then).
Still, what this all leads to is that most of his creatures will not attack me every round (especially not if they are zombies). Counting in the voltaric shield+armor+belt on my mage it will take quite some rounds till his creatures get to the point where they come to a mana to damage ratio of 1:1 taking into account all the mana spend on the creatures (including teleport, enchantments etc). Btw the decelerating effect of Obelisk+Essence Drain+Suppression Cloak is just awesome for a solo mage!
Now, keep in mind that if I get to the point where I got rid of most of the opponent mages armor and there are an Hawkey+Fireshapers Ring on my Banker, the mana to damage ratio is better than 1:1 for Fireball (thanks to the burns) and for Flameblast even more!
So the main question in my experience is: Who can get rid of the opponents defensive stuff quicker? Often its the Banker since he is full of devotion to toughening himself and detoughening the opponent.
Truth
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I wish I could duel you Charmanya. Im sure my Priest would teach you a lesson or two... Or vice versa...
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Still, what this all leads to is that most of his creatures will not attack me every round (especially not if they are zombies).
You make a well-known point about High Armoured Mages just taking the hits every second turn, just standard sequencing tactics.
However, Zombie Brute Squad uses Zombie Frenzy and movement spells (Teleport, Force Push, Force Wave) to land its punches.
Forcemaster lures you into a Grizzly with Force Pull, bypassing Nullify while dodging your range 2 Fireballs.
Curse Warlock Enfeebles threats while safely kiting protected by Nullify, Cloak of Shadows, Cheetah Speed.
Guardian Angels protect Holy Mages, Druid and Raptors Corrode you to death, Gargoyle protect Wizards etc.
I would still like to believe there must be ways around this build (that also have a game against others).
I could not believe it when they previewed Veteran's Belt when they knew the Voltaric Shield issue already.
Veteran's Belt created Forge High Armour Near Invulnerable Equipment builds, destroying Core Set balance.
But your cutting edge is the spike damage within short space of time you can achieve with Wizard's Tower.
That is a very good insight, Charmyna, keeping Wizard's Tower "in your pocket" until you spike burst to win.
I have now tested BB (playing against myself only sadly) and BB did win against my latest Zombie Brute Squad with its Forge (for High Armour like every other build now), Pestilence, Deathlock, Enfeeble and Move spells. But it was close, a few luckier rolls and I feel the result could have been different. The end was nigh when BB Teleported to range 1 to trigger my Nullify with cheap Wand Dissolve target then, gaining Initiative, BB Dissolved the second Cloak of Shadows. Looking back, I should have moved Necro that round but that's the problem with Zombie Frenzy, a full action. Obviously, I played as a Novice and having total knowledge was to BB's disadvantage but I've played many more games as Wizard compared to my 2 games with Necro now so player skill level was roughly equal in my experiment. Yes, it passed the test, it's a great build, congrats Charmyna.
I think it would have a harder time against Forcemaster Solo with 1 Grizzly (Forge pimping FM with equips and enchant buffs as you have no Purge), against a Voltari build with Gargoyles, Jellies, Teleport Wands or against Holy Mages with Guardian Angels, Knights, Brogan.
However, after testing it, i agree its Mana Denial is a sufficient delay to play its spike damage burst.
After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.
First Wizard's Tower then Veteran's Belt - I miss the far more balanced game that was just Core Set.
I can't see it changing in near future either as theme not game balance seems to drive design choice.
It's all really depressing.
Congrats, Charmyna, on your great new build! Now pass me another helping of that delicious humble pie...
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After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.
Nah.
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However, after testing it, i agree its Mana Denial is a sufficient delay to play its spike damage burst.
After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.
First Wizard's Tower then Veteran's Belt - I miss the far more balanced game that was just Core Set.
I can't see it changing in near future either as theme not game balance seems to drive design choice.
It's all really depressing.
Yes, Theme is very important to us. This is at its heart a thematic game and that is one of our biggest strengths. Ideally we want Mage Wars to be an immersive experience. However, we do take balance issues quite seriously, as I'd hope you know. Now, we struggle to have the right response and not simply the "fast" one. Now, in the last few weeks I've seen players mention all different "imbalances". Which is the most important? Right now I know that the concerns players had when I started Forged in Fire are different than the concerns players have now. This is part of why we try not to react rashly. I have a list of concerns here in my office. They're things I'm watching, and they get contemplated when I go to make cards. However, the last thing I want to do is overreact.
I hope this recent string of play has not soured you to playtesting. PVS needs that voice.
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However, after testing it, i agree its Mana Denial is a sufficient delay to play its spike damage burst.
After testing BB, I actually felt dejected that they may have destroyed the game at the highest level.
First Wizard's Tower then Veteran's Belt - I miss the far more balanced game that was just Core Set.
I can't see it changing in near future either as theme not game balance seems to drive design choice.
It's all really depressing.
Sorry for this :(. But as you said I think there are quite some strategies that give the BB a hard time (e.g. Curse Builds, Heavy Hitter builds both with decent armor and a couple of Dispels/Dissolves)! Btw most of my games with BB were against multi medium creature builds which have the biggest problems against BB I think. So its too early to call balance problems I believe.
In my only non playtest game recently, I thrashed a Wizard with Zombie Brute Squad.
Pestilence and Deathlock while chased by 4 Frenzied Brutes should hurt?
I just had a game against a Brute Squad. I got less than ten damage in total from which a couple where healed by regrowth (he used Deathlock at some point). In the end the bloodthirsty on the Brutes backfired at him since he could not dissolve the Suppression Cloak quickly (partly because of Enchantment Transfusion+Nullify trick) and his zombies had to attack me even though they did only very few damage and he had to pay 2 mana for each attack.
Here is the link of the recorded stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/3768200
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I just had a game against a Brute Squad. I got less than ten damage in total from which a couple where healed by regrowth (he used Deathlock at some point). In the end the bloodthirsty on the Brutes backfired at him since he could not dissolve the Suppression Cloak quickly (partly because of Enchantment Transfusion+Nullify trick) and his zombies had to attack me even though they did only very few damage and he had to pay 2 mana for each attack.
Here is the link of the recorded stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna/c/3768200
This is one example of why Corrosive Orchid can be so powerful.
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Yes, Theme is very important to us. This is at its heart a thematic game and that is one of our biggest strengths. Ideally we want Mage Wars to be an immersive experience. However, we do take balance issues quite seriously, as I'd hope you know.
I'm glad to hear this. If the sad experience of Games Workshop has taught us anything, it's that focusing on theme to the detriment of game balance will not win you any friends in the long run.
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Yes, Theme is very important to us. This is at its heart a thematic game and that is one of our biggest strengths. Ideally we want Mage Wars to be an immersive experience. However, we do take balance issues quite seriously, as I'd hope you know.
I'm glad to hear this. If the sad experience of Games Workshop has taught us anything, it's that focusing on theme to the detriment of game balance will not win you any friends in the long run.
The end of the day our theme isn't "one mage beats all" so It's in our interest to look at the balance as well.
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I feel like I have to emphasize that I somehow lack experience of how good Acid Ball is against the BB! I guess if the opponent focuses on dissolving the two Wands of Healing and on putting corrode tokens on the BB, at some point the BB will be left with only two armor and he cant do anything about it. At this point the Veterans Belt will be much less useful!
Therefore, the success I had with this build so far partly might be caused by the sparse population of Acid Balls I had the pleasure to meet recently.
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I just had a game against a Brute Squad. I got less than ten damage in total from which a couple where healed by regrowth (he used Deathlock at some point). In the end the bloodthirsty on the Brutes backfired at him since he could not dissolve the Suppression Cloak quickly (partly because of Enchantment Transfusion+Nullify trick) and his zombies had to attack me even though they did only very few damage and he had to pay 2 mana for each attack.
Yeah, I could see that problem. The trick with playing Brute Squad against BB is not to be too aggressive at the start (you can go down the aggro route against other match-ups), after all, you only need 2 attacks to take out Obelisk (and you don't want them distracted so timing of Pestilence is key). Current Brute Squad can be a standard Heavy Armour Forge Mage for slower roll-out of Brutes - still 17 points of 4 Brutes, Shaggoth + Plague. Knowing BB totally (playing myself), I knew I had to sacrifice my first Cloak of Shadows for your Cloak of Suppression else the game was up. But yes, I can see Brute Squad played aggressive (like normal) is a good match-up for BB.
My Curse Necromancer (which I put on hold, so little time to design books these days) should handle BB. The problem is it's got no game vs. Brute Squad (Frenzy gets round 4 Enfeebles) and a poor game vs. Nonliving Wizard (as Cloak of Shadows and 2 Teleports is not enough to win Teleport Wars). I added 6 Chains (Force Wave does not help against. Frenzy) to try to control Brutes (+ Falcons' Fury etc) but still has no Win Con vs. Necro beyond Force Crush + Magebane (which isn't enough). Also Kiting is impossible with Vines as Mongoose doesn't help but Shadows hurts Vine range too. So it has a few really bad match-ups I'm trying to solve but is otherwise a strong idea (I think). I need to test before posting. Alas this weekend is a big playtest deadline.
You know concept but I suspect it works best in Necro (Eternal Knight guards conjuration corner while kiting)
Enchanter's Ring to Curse myself under Cloak of Shadows while kiting (Cheetah + Mongoose vs. Enfeebles)
I suddenly end turn drop 2 Wardstones and free action before Upkeep bypass your Nullify with Transfusion of
Enfeeble + Ghoul Rot + Agony (in BB's case) + Magebane + Poisoned Blood + Force Crush + Nullify
Reveal all with saved mana (Forge equips, 1 self-enchant per turn + occasional Enfeeble, saving while kiting)
Of course the 2 Wardstones (others destroyed during game so far) prevent a simple Purge Magic of them all.
I mentioned it when Tarkin asked to come good on "How to Beat the Wiz?" (so I rough drafted Brute Squad) because if most mages are going Forge + High Armour + Veteran's Belt + Shield + Nullifies, direct damage in a Deathlock world is surely a solution? Going back to Core Set's design, AW created it as the counter strategy (obviously Corrode added later) but they need to ensure Direct Damage stays viable to defeat High Armour.
I was dubious a Necro build with just 1 Knight would work (maybe Bat as poison deliverer!) as he is designed played as Swarm. I ignored his Spawnpoints (and even Ring) with Bruite Squad. Now I am even ignoring using creatures, just Channel 10, Dark access like Cloak of Shadows + Death Link, Poison Immunity, Eternal Knight useful if saving mana, always reanimate). After seeing your Solo build, I'm more confident. I feel Necro Curse Transfusion is just a fun build as it currently has too many bad match-ups but may end up Wizard Killer build (as requested in that thread) against annoying opponents (like me) who only play High Armour Forge Mages.
I'm totally new to BB, Charmyna (really taken with "end game Wizard's Tower", that's your build's big insight for me).
But playing it just that once, I have a few suggestions...
Mana Siphon - nobody plays Ethereal much (11 with Ring)
Suppession Orb (7 with Ring) - when their threats smash your Obelisk in 1 corner, play Orb in opposite corner
Surely the distraction tempo cost of removing them is greater than the cost to you of playing them?
You already know with Mana Denial that the greater you turn the screw, the more it hurts (and more fun it is).
Mana advantage is diminishing (every +1 Channel worth less than last) so Mana disadvantage is exponential.
Each spell is Cost/Channel in % term of each turn's income so make Channel as low as possible with burdens.
I'm teaching grandmothers to suck eggs (English phrase: means you're the expert) but I don't understand why not go "all-in"?
I also think you underrate Purge Magic's action efficiency (not everyone plays Transfusion Nullify, Charmyna)
And the Bat - please it's got to go, it's a 2SP affront to a very strong build.
It's humiliating to be beaten by a book that has 1 Bat as it's only creature!
It's just rude! :)
Anyway, a really great build and I'm going to test it (with a few changes above) against
* Almost Solo Forcemaster (Forge + Buffs + 1 Grizzly)
* Curse Warlock/Necromancer which is also Mana Denial (been playing Wizard Mana Denial for a long time)
I'm hoping some non-Wizard builds will beat BB because if it doesn't, it really is time to inspect 2 cards:
(a) Wizard's Tower that made Wizards dominant since it arrived
(b) Veteran's Belt that is pushing the meta down dull Forge High Armour, destroying diversity in builds
This dominance of Wizards really needs to stop if Wizard Solo is better than Forcemaster Solo!
Here's hoping you soon lose with BB, Charmyna! :)
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I can think of two cards off the top of my head in the new set that will disrupt the meta enough to require adaptation from BB.
Wizard is still very strong, of course, but the metagame is always a moving target.
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In particular, I feel like Druid + Vine Tree is very effective against Wizard Tower.
....
In general I feel like almost any Battleforge based strategy that is at least moderately defensive should also be good vs. Wizard Tower.
Thank you, AlexW, for your sage advice - which I took and it indeed proved correct.
I quickly cobbled together a Buffed Elites Aggro Druid build below and it beat BB piloted by my friend.
We then swapped books and he did exactly the same to me (though I made alcohol-fuelled mistakes).
AGGRO DRUID (Vine Tree + Battle Forge)
5 CREATURES (16)
4 Raptor Vine (12)
1 Kralathor (4)
15 ENCHANTMENTS (20)
1 Marked for Death (2)
4 Bear Strength (4)
4 Rhino Hide (4)
2 Hawkeye (2)
1 Divine Protection (2)
1 Force Orb (2)
1 Cobra Reflexes (2)
1 Barkskin (2)
16 CONJURATIONS (26)
1 Vine Tree (2)
1 Battle Forge (6)
4 Mana Flower (4)
6 Tanglevine (6)
4 Corrosive Orchid [8]
12 EQUIPMENT (19)
1 Leaf Ring (1)
1 Enchanter's Ring (1)
1 Moonglow Amulet (2)
2 Bearskin (2)
2 Elemental Cloak (4)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Leather Boots (1)
1 Veteran's Belt (3)
1 Vinewhip Staff (2)
1 Healing Wand (2)
15 INCANTATIONS (27)
6 Dispel (12)
6 Dissolve (6)
2 Teleport [8]
1 Rouse the Beast (1)
12 ATTACKS (12)
6 Surging Wave (6)
6 Acid Ball (6)
Key Play Requirements:
1. Accept (with Hawkeye) you use 2 Waves to kill each Battle Forge - you must remove spell action sources
2. Beat BB on the mana race as you have the tools (Leaf Ring + Flowers superior to Harmonize)
3. Vine Tree can sprout a Raptor wherever Orb appears to Bear Strength and Rouse the Beasts
4. Don't give BB time to build up (and especially set up Transfusion tricks), pressure from the start
5. Accept you pay 4 extra mana on first Orchid on Dissolve Wand when Armour Ward appears then Dispel it
6. Other Orchid targets include Suppression Cloak and the other Wands (leave Armour to Corrode)
7. Target Leather item with your plentiful Dissolves to trigger Nullify before Marked to Death (reveal later)
8. Accept your first Acid Ball will have a Defense when Force Orb appears which you then Dispel
9. This match-up is about compressing action bursts so leverage your extra actions, spell actions and mana
Now I appreciate neither of us can play BB anywhere near as well as you, Charmyna, so maybe it's not a clear-cut bad match-up.
Especially as this build was quickly cobbled together (based on my last "Druid book clinic" build) and I'm sure it can be improved.
With just 2 Druid games under my belt (playtesting over!), I've kicked Necromancer out (after just 2 games) and fallen for the Druid.
I think they designed her to be the answer to the Wizard - and they've done a good job because it's subtle.
She's got mana against mana denial, cheap spawnpoint, corrode armour, vine range spells, auto-hindering.
It's taken this long to realise she's great - I've got so much catching up to do, reconnecting with the meta.
Anyway, the Druid Aggro build above should be ok against other builds (so it's not just a BB killer).
It needs work though, someone who's an expert at the Druid.
Meantime, I'm just happy the "unbeaten BB" can be beaten after the shock of discovering how good it was.
I'm pretty sure Forcemaster Almost Solo (Forge, 1 Grizzly, buffs on both, Force Hammers) will also beat BB.
BB is just a moment-in-time meta build and I know the next set will have more hate against similar builds.
I'm also happy that this crisis in confidence with the game design has proven hidden depths in DvN design.
Thank you, Charmyna, for sharing BB. It's a great build and got me thinking about a less extreme version.
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In particular, I feel like Druid + Vine Tree is very effective against Wizard Tower.
....
In general I feel like almost any Battleforge based strategy that is at least moderately defensive should also be good vs. Wizard Tower.
Thank you, AlexW, for your sage advice - which I took and it indeed proved correct.
I quickly cobbled together a Buffed Elites Aggro Druid build below and it beat BB piloted by my friend.
We then swapped books and he did exactly the same to me (though I made alcohol-fuelled mistakes).
AGGRO DRUID (Vine Tree + Battle Forge)
5 CREATURES (16)
4 Raptor Vine (12)
1 Kralathor (4)
15 ENCHANTMENTS (20)
1 Marked for Death (2)
4 Bear Strength (4)
4 Rhino Hide (4)
2 Hawkeye (2)
1 Divine Protection (2)
1 Force Orb (2)
1 Cobra Reflexes (2)
1 Barkskin (2)
16 CONJURATIONS (26)
1 Vine Tree (2)
1 Battle Forge (6)
4 Mana Flower (4)
6 Tanglevine (6)
4 Corrosive Orchid [8]
12 EQUIPMENT (19)
1 Leaf Ring (1)
1 Enchanter's Ring (1)
1 Moonglow Amulet (2)
2 Bearskin (2)
2 Elemental Cloak (4)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Leather Boots (1)
1 Veteran's Belt (3)
1 Vinewhip Staff (2)
1 Healing Wand (2)
15 INCANTATIONS (27)
6 Dispel (12)
6 Dissolve (6)
2 Teleport [8]
1 Rouse the Beast (1)
12 ATTACKS (12)
6 Surging Wave (6)
6 Acid Ball (6)
Key Play Requirements:
1. Accept (with Hawkeye) you use 2 Waves to kill each Battle Forge - you must remove spell action sources
2. Beat BB on the mana race as you have the tools (Leaf Ring + Flowers superior to Harmonize)
3. Vine Tree can sprout a Raptor wherever Orb appears to Bear Strength and Rouse the Beasts
4. Don't give BB time to build up (and especially set up Transfusion tricks), pressure from the start
5. Accept you pay 4 extra mana on first Orchid on Dissolve Wand when Armour Ward appears then Dispel it
6. Other Orchid targets include Suppression Cloak and the other Wands (leave Armour to Corrode)
7. Target Leather item with your plentiful Dissolves to trigger Nullify before Marked to Death (reveal later)
8. Accept your first Acid Ball will have a Defense when Force Orb appears which you then Dispel
9. This match-up is about compressing action bursts so leverage your extra actions, spell actions and mana
Now I appreciate neither of us can play BB anywhere near as well as you, Charmyna, so maybe it's not a clear-cut bad match-up.
Especially as this build was quickly cobbled together (based on my last "Druid book clinic" build) and I'm sure it can be improved.
With just 2 Druid games under my belt (playtesting over!), I've kicked Necromancer out (after just 2 games) and fallen for the Druid.
I think they designed her to be the answer to the Wizard - and they've done a good job because it's subtle.
She's got mana against mana denial, cheap spawnpoint, corrode armour, vine range spells, auto-hindering.
It's taken this long to realise she's great - I've got so much catching up to do, reconnecting with the meta.
Anyway, the Druid Aggro build above should be ok against other builds (so it's not just a BB killer).
It needs work though, someone who's an expert at the Druid.
Meantime, I'm just happy the "unbeaten BB" can be beaten after the shock of discovering how good it was.
I'm pretty sure Forcemaster Almost Solo (Forge, 1 Grizzly, buffs on both, Force Hammers) will also beat BB.
BB is just a moment-in-time meta build and I know the next set will have more hate against similar builds.
I'm also happy that this crisis in confidence with the game design has proven hidden depths in DvN design.
Thank you, Charmyna, for sharing BB. It's a great build and got me thinking about a less extreme version.
Glad to hear you had some fun games with the BB!
Its easy to say afterwards but I always thought Druid is the best candidate to beat BB. Treebond and Barkskin are awesome to help surive BBs blast. Summoning plants with the Vine Trees action on top of conjurations is great too as well as using Tanglevine and stuck markers on the BB to make him use his teleports. Maybe even more important are the cheap Dissolves+Acid Balls and the great in school heavy hitter (Grizzly).
I feel its time to say it again! Its (almost) all about spellpoints! What makes the BB such a successful build IMO is that his main strategy heavily depends on in school spells and the build does not need any level two or higher out of school spells (in the latest iteration I removed Dancing Scimitar). This allows the BB to have 2-3 copies of the most important spells and still be flexible enough to adjust to many different builds.
The Druid is such a formidable opponent against the BB since he is very spellpoint efficient as well! He can include many Acid Balls, Dissolves and Dispels needed to beat BB and still have enough spellpoints left for a couple medium/big in school creatures and many in school enchants to be well suited against other builds than the BB.
@Suppression Orb:
Im sure it will work great with this build but I dont want to spend too many spellpoints for stuff only useful against multi creature mages. If I play against a solo mage all the spellpoints put into Obelisk, Essence Drain and Suppression Orb will be useless in that game. Anyway, if I accept to spend four more Spellpoints into stuff only useful against creature builds, I would prefer two Essence Drain over Obelisk since I guess in the majority of situations they will cost him more mana than the Obelisk. Even if he dispels them, he will have lost 2-3 mana compared to what I invested and that dispel wont be used against BBs valuable Regrowth/Rhino Hide later.
You mentioned Siphon. I can see that spell is very useful for the BB and it works against all mages (not only creature builds). So I will test it out soon. Thx for that advice!
Btw I removed the bat ;).
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@DeckBuilder: I am glad you found my observations to be useful. I am also delighted that you have found that the great wheel of the metagame spins ever forward. The druid book from your testing looks brutally efficient! :)
Glad to hear you had some fun games with the BB!
Its easy to say afterwards but I always thought Druid is the best candidate to beat BB. Treebond and Barkskin are awesome to help surive BBs blast. Summoning plants with the Vine Trees action on top of conjurations is great too as well as using Tanglevine and stuck markers on the BB to make him use his teleports. Maybe even more important are the cheap Dissolves+Acid Balls and the great in school heavy hitter (Grizzly).
I feel its time to say it again! Its (almost) all about spellpoints! What makes the BB such a successful build IMO is that his main strategy heavily depends on in school spells and the build does not need any level two or higher out of school spells (in the latest iteration I removed Dancing Scimitar). This allows the BB to have 2-3 copies of the most important spells and still be flexible enough to adjust to many different builds.
The Druid is such a formidable opponent against the BB since he is very spellpoint efficient as well! He can include many Acid Balls, Dissolves and Dispels needed to beat BB and still have enough spellpoints left for a couple medium/big in school creatures and many in school enchants to be well suited against other builds than the BB.
@Suppression Orb:
Im sure it will work great with this build but I dont want to spend too many spellpoints for stuff only useful against multi creature mages. If I play against a solo mage all the spellpoints put into Obelisk, Essence Drain and Suppression Orb will be useless in that game. Anyway, if I accept to spend four more Spellpoints into stuff only useful against creature builds, I would prefer two Essence Drain over Obelisk since I guess in the majority of situations they will cost him more mana than the Obelisk. Even if he dispels them, he will have lost 2-3 mana compared to what I invested and that dispel wont be used against BBs valuable Regrowth/Rhino Hide later.
You mentioned Siphon. I can see that spell is very useful for the BB and it works against all mages (not only creature builds). So I will test it out soon. Thx for that advice!
Btw I removed the bat ;).
@Charmyna: 1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book? If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject. (Either here or there, as appropriate.)
2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere. I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells. To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.
I recognize that if your book is more "controlling", or relies on "attrition" or a long game, you will need to use more of your SB points over the course of the match. So, maybe for the style of book you seem to play, you might regularly use the same 100-120 points in a single match as opposed to the 80-90 in the styles I have been playing. Even so, perhaps even as few as 10 points of silver bullets might be very helpful?
3) I completely agree that the Druid is the natural (*har* *har*) counter to any solo build. Between Barkskin and her tree, she can get so much more regeneration and armor relative to all the other characters that attacking her life total is highly ineffective. If mage assassination isn't an available path to victory, the game must become one of attrition. With a great spawnpoint, and a range of spell training that allows a full and flexible book, she is very good at attrition. My current opinion is that she vies with the Wizard for the title of best mage, and I think it's very close between the two. (It has a lot to do with Arcane and Nature having most of the best cards split between them, but also with strong stat cards and class-only cards.)
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@Charmyna: 1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book? If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject. (Either here or there, as appropriate.)
The BB arose from the Force Push+Wall of Thorns+Wizard Tower Strategy. After I made a build that relied on this combo I thought a fire spell based version might be more reliable since it can still do nice damage even if the opponent has two armor/Divine Protection. The next step was to narrow the time needed to kill the opponent and to overwhelm him with banked actions.
The Philosophy of Fire is a great post which mentions many important aspects of an aggro deck! What I tried to focus on with the BB besides the ideas incorporated in the Philosophy of Fire is the banking of mana/actions. Before BB I thought its best to invest most of your mana asap to get a return on investment soon. After playing BB I think the opposite is the case (at least for this build and similar): Banking mana while waiting what the opponent does, allows you to use the mana later in a way that makes the actions/mana spent by your opponent as inefficient as possible and your actions/mana as efficient as possible. In my experience it works great to wait and see instead of aiming for the fastest ROI. Btw I do for sure not advice not to use your actions! In many games I feel like if one mage does only cast one spell per round for several rounds its almost gg. Use as many actions as possible! But if you can save some mana to be able to react appropriate (at least this works great if playing the BB since he has time).
2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere. I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells. To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.
I dont mind putting in a couple silver bullets. I just prefer in school silver bullets over out of school ones and I dont want to overcommit.
If I feel that more silver is needed against some builds I might include more. But atm I dont ;).
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Edit: Sorry for the double post.
Newest Iteration of the BB:
Attack Spells:
Surging Wave 1
Jet Stream 1
Fireball 3
Flameblast 2
Conjurations:
Wizards Tower 1
Hand of Bim-Shalla 1
Mana Crystal 1
Battle Forge 2
Mordok's Obelisk 1
Enchanters Wardstone 1
Mana Syphon 1
Enchantments:
Nullify 5
Rhino Hide 3
Regrowth 2
Poisoned Blood 1
Enchantment Transfusion 3
Essence Drain 1
Agony 1
Divine Protection 1
Force Orb 1
Equipment:
Mage Wand 4
Dragonscale Hauberk 4
Leather Gloves 1
Leather Boots 1
Veterants Belt 2
Fireshaper Ring 1
Moonglow Amulet 1
Wand of Healing 2
Suppression Cloak 2
Deflection Bracers 1
Eagleclaw Boots 1
Arcane Ring 1
Elemental Wand 1
Incantations:
Teleport 2
Dispel 6
Seeking Dispel 4
Dissolve 6
Minor Heal 1
Explode 1
Removed some level two out of school spells (Dancing Scimitar, Armor Ward) and included some more defensive equips/enchants - especially Eagleclaw Boots in case the BB gets trapped in a zone with two Walls.
Added a 2nd Suppression Cloak since its just too good against creature builds and added a 2nd Healing Wand to help against Corrode Tokens.
Also removed Geyser since its main purpose was to remove burn tokens which can be mimicked with surging wave.
Added Mana Syphon thanks to DeckBuilders advice (havent tested it much but im sure its good).
Changed Acid Ball for Explode since after I play Wizards Tower I usually dont play Acid Ball anyway and just use the Dissolve on the Mage Wand if I need to remove Armor.
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@Charmyna: 1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book? If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject. (Either here or there, as appropriate.)
The BB arose from the Force Push+Wall of Thorns+Wizard Tower Strategy. After I made a build that relied on this combo I thought a fire spell based version might be more reliable since it can still do nice damage even if the opponent has two armor/Divine Protection. The next step was to narrow the time needed to kill the opponent and to overwhelm him with banked actions.
The Philosophy of Fire is a great post which mentions many important aspects of an aggro deck! What I tried to focus on with the BB besides the ideas incorporated in the Philosophy of Fire is the banking of mana/actions. Before BB I thought its best to invest most of your mana asap to get a return on investment soon. After playing BB I think the opposite is the case (at least for this build and similar): Banking mana while waiting what the opponent does, allows you to use the mana later in a way that makes the actions/mana spent by your opponent as inefficient as possible and your actions/mana as efficient as possible. In my experience it works great to wait and see instead of aiming for the fastest ROI. Btw I do for sure not advice not to use your actions! In many games I feel like if one mage does only cast one spell per round for several rounds its almost gg. Use as many actions as possible! But if you can save some mana to be able to react appropriate (at least this works great if playing the BB since he has time).
2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere. I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells. To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.
I dont mind putting in a couple silver bullets. I just prefer in school silver bullets over out of school ones and I dont want to overcommit.
If I feel that more silver is needed against some builds I might include more. But atm I dont ;).
@Charmyna: 1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book? If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject. (Either here or there, as appropriate.)
The BB arose from the Force Push+Wall of Thorns+Wizard Tower Strategy. After I made a build that relied on this combo I thought a fire spell based version might be more reliable since it can still do nice damage even if the opponent has two armor/Divine Protection. The next step was to narrow the time needed to kill the opponent and to overwhelm him with banked actions.
The Philosophy of Fire is a great post which mentions many important aspects of an aggro deck! What I tried to focus on with the BB besides the ideas incorporated in the Philosophy of Fire is the banking of mana/actions. Before BB I thought its best to invest most of your mana asap to get a return on investment soon. After playing BB I think the opposite is the case (at least for this build and similar): Banking mana while waiting what the opponent does, allows you to use the mana later in a way that makes the actions/mana spent by your opponent as inefficient as possible and your actions/mana as efficient as possible. In my experience it works great to wait and see instead of aiming for the fastest ROI. Btw I do for sure not advice not to use your actions! In many games I feel like if one mage does only cast one spell per round for several rounds its almost gg. Use as many actions as possible! But if you can save some mana to be able to react appropriate (at least this works great if playing the BB since he has time).
2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere. I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells. To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.
I dont mind putting in a couple silver bullets. I just prefer in school silver bullets over out of school ones and I dont want to overcommit.
If I feel that more silver is needed against some builds I might include more. But atm I dont ;).
Edit: Sorry for the double post.
Newest Iteration of the BB:
Attack Spells:
Surging Wave 1
Jet Stream 1
Fireball 3
Flameblast 2
Conjurations:
Wizards Tower 1
Hand of Bim-Shalla 1
Mana Crystal 1
Battle Forge 2
Mordok's Obelisk 1
Enchanters Wardstone 1
Mana Syphon 1
Enchantments:
Nullify 5
Rhino Hide 3
Regrowth 2
Poisoned Blood 1
Enchantment Transfusion 3
Essence Drain 1
Agony 1
Divine Protection 1
Force Orb 1
Equipment:
Mage Wand 4
Dragonscale Hauberk 4
Leather Gloves 1
Leather Boots 1
Veterants Belt 2
Fireshaper Ring 1
Moonglow Amulet 1
Wand of Healing 2
Suppression Cloak 2
Deflection Bracers 1
Eagleclaw Boots 1
Arcane Ring 1
Elemental Wand 1
Incantations:
Teleport 2
Dispel 6
Seeking Dispel 4
Dissolve 6
Minor Heal 1
Explode 1
Removed some level two out of school spells (Dancing Scimitar, Armor Ward) and included some more defensive equips/enchants - especially Eagleclaw Boots in case the BB gets trapped in a zone with two Walls.
Added a 2nd Suppression Cloak since its just too good against creature builds and added a 2nd Healing Wand to help against Corrode Tokens.
Also removed Geyser since its main purpose was to remove burn tokens which can be mimicked with surging wave.
Added Mana Syphon thanks to DeckBuilders advice (havent tested it much but im sure its good).
Changed Acid Ball for Explode since after I play Wizards Tower I usually dont play Acid Ball anyway and just use the Dissolve on the Mage Wand if I need to remove Armor.
Man Wizards are just sick. It's sad because with all the variety of spells in the game it's usually true that dissolving/dispelling/teleporting the other Mage into oblivion is simply the best play. Whatever strategy the enemy may have is typically neutralized (or at least severely hindered) by these spells which only the Wiz can have in such abundance. All the while saving enough points to have plenty of armor(4 hauberks! 2 veterans belts!)/mage wands (4!)/ neutralize/healing wand + voltaric to be nigh invulnerable to any attacks, not to mention auxilliary mana deny module to further set the opponent back. He's just way too good. Thankfully we have a no Wizards agreement in our local meta. Matches are much more interesting without such a gross imbalance in effectiveness.
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Man Wizards are just sick. It's sad because with all the variety of spells in the game it's usually true that dissolving/dispelling/teleporting the other Mage into oblivion is simply the best play. Whatever strategy the enemy may have is typically neutralized (or at least severely hindered) by these spells which only the Wiz can have in such abundance. All the while saving enough points to have plenty of armor(4 hauberks! 2 veterans belts!)/mage wands (4!)/ neutralize/healing wand + voltaric to be nigh invulnerable to any attacks, not to mention auxilliary mana deny module to further set the opponent back. He's just way too good. Thankfully we have a no Wizards agreement in our local meta. Matches are much more interesting without such a gross imbalance in effectiveness.
Well, you can easily include 4-5 Dispels and 5-6 Dissolves in any spell book (I do in almost every). Only the water wizard gets (Seeking) Dispel and Dissolve for cheap. All other Wizards have to pay the same spellpoints as a druid for the combo Dispel+Dissolve. And you need to remember that the BB is all about equipment/Enchantment and removal of those. You could build a similar spellbook with the Druid or maybe the Warlock/Necro.
Dont get me wrong, I agree wizard is the strongest from all mages and I believe he will be nerfed in some way soon. Even though I play wizard alot I would welcome an errata actually since I believe its for the healthiness of the game.
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I think original Beastmaster, Druid, and Wizard are all tier 1 mages. In the post-Corrode metagame, I am also willing to believe Priestess might be very close at tier 1.5 thanks to her strength vs. Corrode.
I'd rather see a few cards get printed to make the other mages stronger rather than nerfing the Wizard. In particular, better Blood Reaper targets would make a huge difference for the Warlock. (I'd like to see an option with Flying and maybe Elusive.) A one-handed pushing Weapon or Shield would be great for the Warlord. (The visuals on Shield Bashing an enemy out of my tile would be great!) The Forcemaster needs a better Mindspore, more on the power level of Wizard's Tower or Huginn (Slow casting and fragility have really undermined its use). Maybe a Dancing Wand to go with the Dancing Scimitar? (Only half joking.)
@Charmyna: You seem to be one of the acknowledged experts in the game. What do you think each non-Wizard mage needs to bring them up to competitive playability?
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@Charmyna: You seem to be one of the acknowledged experts in the game. What do you think each non-Wizard mage needs to bring them up to competitive playability?
This sounds like a big enough topic that it should be its own thread. I'm kinda interested in responses. Also, you wouldn't think we'd make a set with a new warlock and not give you blood reapers ;-). You'll want to watch our previews which will start soon.
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@Charmyna: You seem to be one of the acknowledged experts in the game. What do you think each non-Wizard mage needs to bring them up to competitive playability?
This sounds like a big enough topic that it should be its own thread. I'm kinda interested in responses. Also, you wouldn't think we'd make a set with a new warlock and not give you blood reapers ;-). You'll want to watch our previews which will start soon.
Good bit of topic moderation, and teasing. :) I'm very much looking forward to seeing what comes.
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Don't tease me with new blood reavers! That's like those girl scouts who offer to sell me cookies but are out of thin mints!!!!! I need new demons(and thin mints) ASAP!!!!! Cant.....wait.....previews.....dying from dark creature withdrawal!!!!!
*The body of a Silverclawed Grizzly was found outside his place of work last night of an apparent implosion. Cause of implosion unknown but the bloodies corpse was found beside a note saying "Give me demons and cookies!!!!"*
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Don't tease me with new blood reavers! That's like those girl scouts who offer to sell me cookies but are out of thin mints!!!!! I need new demons(and thin mints) ASAP!!!!! Cant.....wait.....previews.....dying from dark creature withdrawal!!!!!
*The body of a Silverclawed Grizzly was found outside his place of work last night of an apparent implosion. Cause of implosion unknown but the bloodies corpse was found beside a note saying "Give me demons and cookies!!!!"*
So then the "Cookie Demon" should be the first preview we do? ;-)
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Don't tease me with new blood reavers! That's like those girl scouts who offer to sell me cookies but are out of thin mints!!!!! I need new demons(and thin mints) ASAP!!!!! Cant.....wait.....previews.....dying from dark creature withdrawal!!!!!
*The body of a Silverclawed Grizzly was found outside his place of work last night of an apparent implosion. Cause of implosion unknown but the bloodies corpse was found beside a note saying "Give me demons and cookies!!!!"*
So C is for Cookie and D is for DaDa, that is good enough for me?
So then the "Cookie Demon" should be the first preview we do? ;-)
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Man if there were a Cookie Demon the women in our play group would go ballistic with laughter. They already cry anytime you kill a fox.
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Though if there ever IS a cookie demon I'll personally fly out to pose for the art work.
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Dont get me wrong, I agree wizard is the strongest from all mages and I believe he will be nerfed in some way soon. Even though I play wizard alot I would welcome an errata actually since I believe its for the healthiness of the game.
One obvious and minimally intrusive way to bring the Wizard into alignment would be to reduce his channeling to 9. As new players my meta is struggling to figure out why the Mage with the best access to the power spells also channels one more mana than most of the others.
Would Wizard be more reasonable with this simple change?