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Author Topic: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?  (Read 10746 times)

DaveW

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Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« on: December 01, 2013, 06:51:15 PM »
I got to face a Necromancer (skeleton build) recently. While I am not a very good player, I have to say that I got destroyed a lot more quickly in that battle than I usually do. I damaged his creatures with mine, but he kept reconstructing them and bringing out more from spawnpoints.

My question is: Which spells could I include for various mages that would help against unliving creatures?

I'm also looking for a good overall strategy to use (meaning aggressive, etc.) against typical Necromancer play.

I see, for example, that light-based attack spells are good against non-living creatures... but I usually don't have any of those since I don't have a Priest/Priestess spellbook prepared, and since they don't do a lot of damage against living creatures. I usually play Beastmaster (original) or Air Wizard (and have been trying to play the Warlord as well).

What can I do without switching to Priest/Priestess?

Thanks in advance for your advice!
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Zuberi

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2013, 07:21:00 PM »
I think a good counter to nonliving creatures would be to ignore them. Focus on his mage instead.

Otherwise, if he is swarming the field I would suggest some Zone attacks, such as Ring of Fire, Electrify, and Blinding Flash.

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2013, 07:31:14 PM »
As a Beastmaster Stranglevine is in school for you.. it will lock a creature in place and deal direct non-poison damage right to their health total to get around the Resilient Trait.

Necromancer is also still vulnerable to things that punish other swarm based mages like Supression Orb, Mordoks Obelisk, Damage Barriers and Supression Cloak.

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2013, 07:49:38 PM »
Ignore Warlord for now; the spells just aren't there to make it worth playing him.


For the other two mages, could you post your spellbooks? That would let us give you more focused feedback.

Other than that I can't really say much besides going for the throat; don't give your opponent time to summon more than a couple of creatures, especially with Beastmaster. You should be in your opponent's face by turn 3. The Timber Wolf makes a pretty good Pet, with a 6 die attack if you're in the same zone. Use Galador too; Lightning Stag is amazing.

With Libro in the meta now I'd suggest at least 4 dissolves. Your opponent can just put it back in her/his spellbook, but each time spends 3 life to do so and another action and 10 mana to recast.

For Air Wizard, use the new Oozes and possibly Whirling Spirit. Using a Wizard's Tower with Flameblast attached is cheap and will hurt either Zombies or Skeletons pretty well.

DaveW

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2013, 08:47:31 PM »
As a Beastmaster Stranglevine is in school for you.. it will lock a creature in place and deal direct non-poison damage right to their health total to get around the Resilient Trait.

I don't remember seeing Stranglevine... is that a new one from DvN?
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DaveW

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2013, 09:12:29 PM »
For the other two mages, could you post your spellbooks?

Beastmaster (original)

Conjurations
2 Mana Flower
3 Tanglevine
1 Tooth & Nail
1 Mohktari
1 Renewing Spring
2 Wall of Thorns

Creatures
2 Spitting Raptor
1 Kralathor
1 Redclaw
3 Dire Wolf
4 Timber Wolf
4 Bitterwood Fox
4 Thunderift Falcon

Equipment
1 Ring of Beasts
1 Staff of Beasts
2 Bearskin
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Dispel Wand
1 Eagleclaw Boots
1 Leather Gloves

Incantations
1 Purge Magic
1 Dispel
1 Seeking Dispel
1 Shift Enchantment
1 Sleep
1 Dissolve
1 Rouse the Beast
2 Call of the Wild
1 Force Push
1 Teleport

Attack
2 Surging Wave

Enchantments
2 Nullify
2 Falcon Precision
3 Bull Endurance
3 Bear Strength
1 Rhino Hide
1 Cheetah Speed
1 Circle of Lightning
1 Mongoose Agility
1 Cobra Reflexes
1 Regrowth
1 Decoy
1 Divine Protection

Air Wizard

Conjurations
1 Gate to Voltari
2 Mana Crystal
2 Wizard's Tower
2 Fog Bank
1 Poison Gas Cloud
1 Mana Prism

Creatures
2 Gorgon Archer
2 Devouring Jelly
1 Gargoyle Sentry
1 Huginn
2 Blue Gremlin

Incantations
1 Purge Magic
1 Banish
2 Dispel
2 Seeking Dispel
3 Teleport
1 Shift Enchantment
1 Heal
1 Purify
2 Dissolve

Enchantments
2 Harmonize
2 Nullify
1 Decoy
1 Hawkeye
1 Teleport Trap
1 Circle of Lightning
1 Rhino Hide

Equipment
1 Wand of Healing
1 Moonglow Amulet
1 Magewand
1 Elemental Wand
1 Arcane Ring
1 Lightning Ring
1 Storm Drake Hide
1 Leather Gloves
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Eagleclaw Boots

Attack
1 Thunderbolt
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Electrify
1 Force Hammer
2 Arc Lightning
1 Surging Wave
1 Geyser
2 Jet Stream
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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2013, 10:27:42 PM »
Alright my friend. I know resilient may seem like a super tough cat to beat, but it's really not very difficult once you realize their major weakness. Critical damage is obviously the only way to damage them, correct? As well, they have an extremely low life total. So, there is one true way to slay the undead if need be, and that's through burn stacking. Stack as many burns as you can, and if you still have trouble, you may want to look at Demonhide armor, or Circle of Fire, both of which are fantastic spells for defeating the undead.

Zuberi, I get what you are saying about "Killing the mage." Yes, that is the object of the game, but you have to account for the fact that they are trying to kill you, as well. So yes, you are going to have to invest in some resources in killing the opponent's creatures/conjurations/equipment. That's just a fact. As well, strategies like damage spiking are becoming less and less effective with each set that comes out. Yes, you could point out that they have pest, so it is easy to get away from them, but that does not matter if you are dying. Have you played against a good necro yet? They are really good at DoTs, especially with their first ability. They can do upwards of 6 damage a turn, not including actually attacking, so you are going to have to kill at least some of their creatures, because if not, you will die extremely quickly.

Here's some food, have a thought.
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DaveW

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2013, 11:11:25 PM »
It sounds as if I need to revise my Wizard to Fire-trained, and include more higher-damage and/or flying creatures. Or go with the Warlock with big fire creature(s) as mentioned in another thread.

I also wonder if Psylocks won't come in handy now also... flying with the Critical Damage trait (and others). Maybe I can also consider a Forcemaster now... or just add a couple Psylocks to another Mage's book.

Thanks for the quick feedback.
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Zuberi

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2013, 11:24:43 PM »
Disrupting the enemies strategy has it's place in the game. I apologize for making it sound like it doesn't, and I agree that Damage Barriers and Conjurations are great solutions to a swarm of Zombies. However, I do not believe that attacking the Zombies is generally a great idea when you could be attacking their mage. Zone attacks is a possible exception as you can use that to hit both their Mage and their creatures, plus it can be extremely efficient. For 9 mana you can use Ring of Fire against three enemy creatures to deal 15 dice of damage plus Burns.

So, maybe my choice of words when I said to ignore the Zombies was a poor one. However, from what was written in the first post, I believe the OP is focusing way too much energy on dealing with the Zombies that he should be focusing on his opponent. It sounds like he has lost sight of the goal.

Therefore my advice is still to focus on their mage. If you do need to divert attention to their creatures, there are better options besides attacking them. I would put in a Mordok's Obelisk and a Suppression Orb in your Wizard book. Those two spells should ruin any swarm tactics from your opponent. You could also add Suppression Cloak if you wanted. Then for your Beastmaster, it looks like you might be trying for a Swarm strategy yourself. If so, I might add a Lair and Meditation Amulet and try to simply out-swarm your opponent. Etherian Life Tree would be good support for that as well.

Aylin

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2013, 12:48:07 AM »
First, to everyone but the OP:

The OP mentioned skeletons. While mentioning zombies is important too (the book should be able to handle both zombies and skeletons), ignoring the skeletons in all of your responses just implies that you aren't actually reading what the OP is having a problem with. Really people, we can do better.


To the OP:
It sounds as if I need to revise my Wizard to Fire-trained, and include more higher-damage and/or flying creatures. Or go with the Warlock with big fire creature(s) as mentioned in another thread.

I also wonder if Psylocks won't come in handy now also... flying with the Critical Damage trait (and others). Maybe I can also consider a Forcemaster now... or just add a couple Psylocks to another Mage's book.

Thanks for the quick feedback.

Psylocks aren't very good at all. Their attack is Psychic, and I believe that most undead are Psychic Immune. Plus their attack is a full action with only 0-0... Yeah, useless for everyone unfortunately.

For your Beastmaster build, I almost think you have too many creatures. Casting them as fast as you could (using your quick cast ability) it would still take you 11 turns to get them all out. That seems a bit unreasonable to me, and I think you should remove some of the ones you don't use much. The Spitting Raptors are excellent (being good against possible zombies, plus increasing damage from all of your other animals), but you should include Galador, Protector of Straywood (the 0-1 stun attack is what makes him awesome). I'd also be included to suggest including a Steelclaw Grizzly; the high dice attack will work well against either type of undead (not to mention the piercing it has will cut through any armour they're likely to have).

As for things to remove, I'd start with the Direwolves. I don't have a copy of DvN yet, but I think they're immune to Bleed and don't trigger Bloodthirsty. Add to that the all-too-popular Iron Golem builds and I think they're just too weak when compared to the Timber Wolf. Honestly I'd also remove Kralathor as well. The only time it would be worth summoning over Galador or the bear would be against undead...but knowing that your opponent would have prepared Fire spells to burn it to a crisp. Going a bit further I'd probably also take out at least 2 of the Thunderrift Falcons, since with Redclaw you're more likely to want to use the foxes. If you find that you're not often using a creature, take it out. Having too many is just space that could be used to handle certain deadly situations.

Stranglevine is in DvN. It's Tanglevine, except it grows a bit and damage to the restrained creature. Maybe remove 1 Tanglevine and 1 Wall of Vines for it?

I'm not a big fan of Mokhtari personally, just because it can't move around the board as needed. I'd prefer a Unicorn. Only Regenerate 1, but it can move around and it is an animal, getting the bonuses you could provide for it. Though do you really need either? Just using the Regrowth Enchantment for certain creatures would probably be preferable.

Do you use the +2 melee or 2-die heal on your staff of beasts? If you don't switch it out for a Mage Wand - same price to include in your book but you also get Ethereal and Reach on your attacks. Plus you save 2 mana casting it.

Mostly I'm surprised by how few Dissolves and Dispels you have. 1 of either is not enough, even with a Dispel Wand. 2, preferably 3 or 4, of each is a minimum, regardless of mage.

Bull Endurance isn't that great; the main use for it is to give familiars the ability to take more than 1 Unavoidable attack. You don't use any it looks like in this book, so I'd remove them. Increasing Armour and Regeneration is better.

Add another Teleport too. You can Bear Strength the Grizzly (which is also your pet), and QC Teleport it right to your Opponent's zone...only to immediately activate the Grizzly and hit your opponent with a surprise 11 die attack.



I'm too tired to look through your Wizard book right now, but I will say this: Remove 1 Gorgon and replace it with a hydra. The Gorgon isn't that great against Undead or golems, but the Hydra can make short work of skeletons and isn't too shabby against zombies either.

MrSaucy

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2013, 01:16:31 AM »
Too lazy to go through entire thread right now ;D

Quick comment: if you let the Necromancer develop a swarm, you have probably lost the game. Get in his face and get in his face FAST if you want to win! Do NOT let him get comfortable. Warlock and Forcemaster are great for this, with Warlock being the better option because of that whole dead-have-psychic-immunity thing.

Another quick comment: Non-living, non-dark creatures are a pain for Necromancer. I am talking about you, Devouring Jelly and Iron Golem!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 01:18:27 AM by MrSaucy »
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Zuberi

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2013, 01:55:36 AM »
Quote from: AylinIsAwesome
The OP mentioned skeletons. While mentioning zombies is important too (the book should be able to handle both zombies and skeletons), ignoring the skeletons in all of your responses just implies that you aren't actually reading what the OP is having a problem with. Really people, we can do better.

Quote from: DaveW
My question is: Which spells could I include for various mages that would help against unliving creatures?

His question was in general about nonliving creatures. My original response was kept neutral referring to all nonliving creatures. I apologize if I disappointed you by later referring to Zombies, but that doesn't invalidate my advice.

Quote from: AylinIsAwesome
Do you use the +2 melee or 2-die heal on your staff of beasts? If you don't switch it out for a Mage Wand

I think you intended to say Mage Staff.

Aylin

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2013, 03:27:40 AM »
Quote from: AylinIsAwesome
The OP mentioned skeletons. While mentioning zombies is important too (the book should be able to handle both zombies and skeletons), ignoring the skeletons in all of your responses just implies that you aren't actually reading what the OP is having a problem with. Really people, we can do better.

Quote from: DaveW
My question is: Which spells could I include for various mages that would help against unliving creatures?

His question was in general about nonliving creatures. My original response was kept neutral referring to all nonliving creatures. I apologize if I disappointed you by later referring to Zombies, but that doesn't invalidate my advice.

Almost everyone else who responded to the thread talked exclusively about resilient...which is a trait no skeleton has. Your initial post was neutral, and perhaps I should have excluded you from what I said, though everyone else immediately jumped onto resilient and zombies...if they even read the thread.


Quote
Quote from: AylinIsAwesome
Do you use the +2 melee or 2-die heal on your staff of beasts? If you don't switch it out for a Mage Wand

I think you intended to say Mage Staff.

Yes
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:33:45 AM by AylinIsAwesome »

DeckBuilder

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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2013, 10:39:38 AM »
It's a bit unfair building specifically to beat a particular mage but you could try these books...

Beastmaster Swarm

10 Conjurations (18)
Battle Forge (turn 1 near centre)
Etherian Lifetree (ideally start corner)
3x Rajan’s Fury (Falcons can move out then back in)
2x Wall of Thorns (wall in tree/block zombies/archers)
3x Tanglevine (threats, guarding knights etc)

12 Creatures (18)
6x Falcon (Pet: + Bear Strength + Mongoose Agility + Regrowth)
Cervere + Eagle Wings + Bear Strength + Regrowth
Kralathor + Eagle Wings + Bear Strength + Falcon Precision (knights)
4x Bobcat (guards/distractions)

10 Equipment (17)
Ring of Beasts (1st, turn 2 from forge)
Enchanter’s Ring (2nd or 3rd)
Moonglow Amulet (2nd or 3rd)
Dragonscale Hauberk (fire is the new meta)
Elemental Cloak (fire again)
Gauntlets of Strength
Mage Staff
Regrowth Belt (don't overcommit to Deathlock)
Eagleclaw Boots (protect against own Thorns)
Healing Wand

Enchantments (17 inc. creature upgrades)
Beastmaster: + Harmonize + Rhino Hide + Bear Strength
Enemy Mage: + Marked for Death

Incantations (50)
4x Dispel
4x Dissolve
4x Teleport
4x Decoy (use to trigger Nullify or attract Seeking Dispel)
2x Force Push (push enemy mage through Thorns)
2x Force Wave (great vs. zombie horde)
2x Battle Fury
2x Rouse the Beast

Fire Wizard Control

Equipment (15)
1 Arcane Ring (1)
1 Enchanter's Ring (1)
1 Suppression Cloak (2)
1 Dragonscale Hauberk (1)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Leather Boots (1)
2 Mage Wand (4) - switch spell via forge as free action
1 Elemental Wand (2)
1 Regrowth Belt (2)

Conjurations (16)
1 Battle Forge (3)
2 Mana Crystal (2)
1 Mana Siphon (3)
1 Suppression Orb (4)
1 Mordok's Obelisk (2)
1 Wizard's Tower (2)

Creatures (16)
4 Hydra (16) - counterstrike great vs. bloodthirsty and swarms

Enchantments (33)
3 Harmonize (3) - forge, self, tower
4 Nullify (4) - protect vs. dissolve, curses, teleport
4 Bear Strength [8] - hydra countersrike
5 Rhino Hide (10) - hydra resilience (vs. swarm), self
4 Cheetah Speed [8] - hydra mobility

Incantations (30)
4 Dispel (4)
4 Dissolve [8]
2 Seeking Dispel (2)
4 Teleport [8]
1 Force Wave (2) - wand, great vs. zombie hordes
1 Minor Heal (2) - wand
2 Purify (4) - multi-removal saves actions

Attacks (10)
2 Fireball (4) - wand default
1 Ring of Fire (2)
1 Jet Stream (2) - board control
1 Surging Wave (2) - bypass knight guards

You need to Teleport Hydra (Bear Strength) onto any Deathlock to destroy it.

Apologies if my mental arithmetic doesn't add up to 120. Good luck!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 04:06:42 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Re: Anti-Necromancer help - Best counters to unliving creatures?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2013, 04:41:51 PM »
And here is my favourite flavour of Wizard - but unlike Golem Pit, this time played aggressively...

This book is designed against any book (not just Necromancer) and plays like a Necromancer by accelerating to 14 Channeling by turn 5 and spewing out nonliving creatures. The Golems guard your epic conjurations (choose according to match-up) while the Oozes confront your enemy forces. Your QC is often to Teleport one of them.


Earth Wizard "Swarm"

Equipment (20)
1 Arcane Ring (1)
1 Suppression Cloak (2)
1 Elemental Cloak (1)
1 Dragonscale Hauberk (2)
1 Leather Gloves (1)
1 Leather Boots (1)
3 Mage Wand (6) - default teleport, free action swap via forge
1 Elemental Wand (2)
1 Veteran's Belt (2) - good vs. swarm if high armour, you play Deathlock
1 Regrowth Belt (2) - when facing Necromancer, let him play Deathlock

Conjurations (29)
1 Battle Forge (4)
2 Mana Crystal (2)
1 Mana Siphon (3)
1 Suppression Orb (4)
1 Wizard's Tower (2)
1 Deathlock (4)
1 Idol of Pestilence (4)
1 Mordok's Obelisk (2) - if opponent out-swarms
2 Walls of Steel (4)

Creatures (24)
4 Iron Golem (12)
4 Devouring Jelly (12)

Enchantments (9)
3 Harmonize (3) - forge, self, tower
1 Rhino Hide (2) - self
4 Nullify (4) - self

Incantations (26)
4 Dispel (4)
4 Dissolve [8]
2 Seeking Dispel (2)
4 Teleport [8]
1 Force Wave (2) - wand to mass move ooze
1 Purify (2) - wand option

Attacks (12)
2 Hurl Boulder (4)
1 Fireball (4)
1 Jet Stream (2)
1 Surging Wave (2)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 05:24:56 PM by DeckBuilder »
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