Necromancer - Zombie Swarm

[MrSaucy]

Hmm. I'm thinking now my spellbook is flawed in that it doesn't take advantage of the Necromancer's poison immunity OR the fact that all of my creatures are non-living. Idol of Pestilence is a good addition that would take advantage of both of those things. And I was probably too hasty to remove Poison Gas Cloud.

Unfortunately, I am slammed with final exams all this week, so I won't be able to contribute anything to this forum. But I think I will try out various Necromancer spellbooks this weekend and post which one felt the strongest.

This is an interesting digression on the Focus vs. Versatility axis in the game which is rarely discussed.
Playing multiple copies of the same synergetic spells gives you Focus but at the expense of Versatility.
Where you pitch your camp is really a matter of personal style.
But if you want a book that's consistently good against all opposition, you need to have some Versatility.
Otherwise you're playing "match-up lottery", beaten by some nemesis builds and walking over others.

It may be rarely discussed but it is certainly something you always to have to think about. On one hand, you don't want to be a slave to your theme (a rule MtG players will be familiar with). On the other hand, if you lose focus of your theme you aren't building the best spellbook possible. I think part of the versatility comes with the standard spells that most spellbooks include: nullify, block, bear strength, hawkeye, seeking dispel, dispel, dissolve, teleport, force push, heal, etc.

One of the Necromancer's weaknesses is his defense and life-gain options. I almost included 1 Heal in my spellbook, but it took up too many points. Unfortunately, I hate Drain Life, so I was only left with Regrowth Belt, Deathlink, and 1 Vampirism for my mage. (Drain Soul might help in this area, but I haven't played with it yet so I don't want to jump to conclusions.)

[AsianChexMix]

An imminently sensible build of how the Zombies seem to have been designed to be played.

Obvious interactions (I suspect not all of them work) include...
Crawlers + Shaggoth + maybe Ziggurat vs. swarm + Ghoul cleaner - Did this and liked the way it turned out. Ghoul + Shaggoth was a nasty combo. Add in Brutes and Plagues, it was fun.
Sacrificial Altar + Eternal Plague Servant + Graveyard (too slow?) - It does take some setup to get this. I believe the key is going to be having things take up the actions as you build.
Idol + Gas Cloud + Cheetah Malacoda + Animate + Deathlock - Have yet to do this but definitely thought about how to incorporate it...hard to have everything. I do use a Malacoda-less poison strategy
Frenzy (full) or Force Wave + lots of Zombies (Brutes to hinder!) - That would be nice but haven't gotten to that point yet where I thought "hmm, wave is nice here" but perhaps it's just how my games turned out

See my observations here. Maybe other Necro players would like to chime in?

Just one very minor quibble...

I make use of my Plague Zombies as mini tanks on guard

Pest Guards can be ignored.

Also this build is at a disadvantage vs. nonliving (Golems, Oozes, Skeleton reconstruction/pop-up archers).
I also don't fancy it against Elite flyers, mana denial and all the usual Necromancer silver bullets.
For more consistency, you may think about shoring up the weaknesses at the expense of its purist theme.
For example 1 Gas Cloud for 4 is sufficient, ideally on a Lair or Gate, Malacoda/Knight guards Idol/Deathlock.

You use the word "tribal" revealing your Magic background (Lorwyn block and predecessor Onslaught block).
With those Magic blocks, building decks was like "building by numbers" as the synergies were just spelt out.
Mage Wars with its pick mechanic is far more sophisticated; having the right tool for the right occasion is far more valuable.

This is an interesting digression on the Focus vs. Versatility axis in the game which is rarely discussed.
Playing multiple copies of the same synergetic spells gives you Focus but at the expense of Versatility.
Where you pitch your camp is really a matter of personal style.
But if you want a book that's consistently good against all opposition, you need to have some Versatility.
Otherwise you're playing "match-up lottery", beaten by some nemesis builds and walking over others.

In case this sounds negative, I really like the religious adherence to theme and synergies in your build.
I am sure it can overwhelm many builds.
Just be aware such sweeping victories is a sign of "win more" and it's better to have a higher win rate.
Yes, it means compromising the purist idea to fit solutions to lessen bad match-ups; culling always hurts.

First, I must have tipped my hand as a former MtG player. Heh. As for your point, I completely get you and it's the tough thing about this game which is something I love! The complexity of what we need to look for has to be done on all levels. Versatility wise, you're right. You have to maintain the balance and I've been trying to figure out what that is. Maybe instead of 4 brutes and 4 plague zombies I cut that down leaving more options open for the silver bullets you mentioned. I think because my meta is between casual and semi-competitive (so semi-semi-competitive?), I think I can manage until  I get hit in the face. 

Nice clarification on Pest vs. Guard. Definitely needs to retweak my options here. See, you hit me in the face! 

[MrSaucy]

Here is the spellbook I have pretty much finalized.

>>>Equipment:

1 Death Ring
1 Deathshroud Staff
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Cloak of Shadows
1 Demonhide Armor
1 Regrowth Belt

Notes: Death Ring is a mandatory turn 1 spell. Deathshroud Staff can be brought out turn 1 or later but I always bring it out turn 1. You never know if things won't be going your way and your Necromancer will have to do some attacking of his own. Choose Elemental Cloak if you are playing against any Air or Fire mage AND you don't think you will be able to keep your distance. I actually found Cloak of Shadows more useful against a Wizard because he was trying to keep me away from him the whole game. Regrowth Belt is put in so the Necromancer can have some sort of lifegain via equipment.

I like Necromancer much better without Libro Mortuos, so Libro will be out of all of my Necromancer spellbooks.

>>>Conjurations:

1 Sacrificial Altar
1 Idol of Pestilence
2 Poison Gas Cloud

>>>Enchantments:

1 Death Link
2 Nullify
2 Block
2 Enfeeble
2 Maim Wings
2 Poisoned Blood
2 Agony
2 Ghoul Rot
1 Hellfire Trap
1 Bear Strength
1 Vampirism

Notes: Death Link and Vampirism are there for lifegain options. Bear Strength can be great if you slip it underneath your Necromancer and reveal it immediately before attacking with Deathshroud Staff. The rest of the enchantments are pretty standard.

>>>Incantations:

2 Drain Life
4 Dispel
3 Dissolve
1 Teleport
1 Force Push
4 Zombie Frenzy
4 Animate Dead

Notes: Drain Life is there for lifegain. You may want to swap out Drain Life for Drain Soul. I haven't played with Drain Soul so I don't want to jump to any conclusions. Regardless, I have found that Drain Life can be a sneaky way to end matches when your opponent is ~5 points away from dying. I greatly prefer Animate Dead over Rise Again and Ziggurat of Undeath, hence the 4 copies.

>>>Creatures:

4 Venomous Zombie
4 Unstable Zombie
2 Plague Zombie
1 Zombie Brute

I have taken a recent liking to Venomous Zombie. I have played two games with all Venomous Zombies and no Zombie Minions and the Venomous Zombies were pretty effective. Tainted can be stellar, especially if put on an inactive creature, and 3 direct damage can be pretty helpful against creatures with thick armor. I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.

I originally planned on 2 Zombie Brutes, but I took out 1 Zombie Brute in order to add another Dispel so I think it was worth it.

[Tim]

No zora?

You must at least play 1.
Zora is great, even without growth markers (standard 4 dice + 1 additional for bloodthirsty and you can guard with it (no pest), ...

[sIKE]

@Saucy

I am playing a moded version of your (latest rev) book tomorrow. My first go around as a Dark Mage and my first play of the DvN expansion.

I will post it up tomorrow after I play it.

[baronzaltor]

I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.

Death Ring doesn't reduce the cost of using the Eternal Servant ability.

[Wildhorn]

I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.

Death Ring doesn't reduce the cost of using the Eternal Servant ability.

It actually does. Eternal Servant is Reanimating and Reanimating is Summoning and Summoning is Casting a creature spell and the ring reduce mana cost when you Cast.

[Kharhaz]

I actually make a Venomous Zombie an eternal servant. The reason I do this is because you only need to leave 7 mana (6 mana if you have Death Ring equipped) to reanimate a dead Venomous Zombie that is your eternal servant.

Death Ring doesn't reduce the cost of using the Eternal Servant ability.

It actually does. Eternal Servant is Reanimating and Reanimating is Summoning and Summoning is Casting a creature spell and the ring reduce mana cost when you Cast.

I will try to clarify the interaction....

My eternal Servant dies and I choose to pay it's casting cost of 9 to trigger the reanimate effect. This is not casting or revealing a spell, just activating an ability. At the end of the round it is summoned into the zone.

The mana cost reduction requires me to cast a creature, which I am not, and yes while the ability does summon a creature, It is not cast when I pay the mana. Which is when the ring checks to see if a reduction can be applied.

That make sense?

[baronzaltor]

 Summoning is Casting a creature spell

This part is incorrect.  Summoning is not inherently casting a creature spell, though the concepts are very similar.

from the codex: 
Summon
When a creature comes into play and is placed in the arena it is Summoned. Usually this occurs when a creature spell has been cast and successfully resolves.


For the ring to work, you (or a spawn point) have to cast the spell.   Summoning is simply the mechanic of bringing something into play, wether it is from casting a spell or some other source (such as Reanimation or Ichthellid Larve).

[Intangible0]

Guess I'm a little late to this thread. But in case you haven't found out by now: Tainted counts as three damage that cannot be healed (can still be removed by paying cost). In a way I guess you could consider it lowering the Life of the enemy mage. I've played the necro a few times now and I haven't lossed with it yet. I'm not saying it can't be beat guys, just saying it hasn't happened so far.
IMO venemous zombie is one of the best out there for the necro. If you can put a tainted marker on it then your pretty much doing 2 dice of damage base plus and additional three damage right there. Then once it has the tainted marker on you can utilize your necro's plague master ability to start throwing direct poison damage on the enemy mage every turn.

As far as your first build goes, your absolutely right, I've ran some numbers and the ring straight into mortuoso is the most mana efficient combo. However, I'd scrap wall of bones and put a meatier (pun!) wall in. I actually went for broke and used wall of steel. It takes forever to knock down, so if you know you're about to get rushed by a warlock or forcemaster than throw that wall down turn 2! They kind of just look at you confusedly and it gives you more rounds to summon the bulk of your army.

I went away from shaggoth and used the ravenous ghoul. It's fast and annoying and one time a wizard threw down a mord's obelisk and i watched the necro just sac one crawler a turn to it and made the ghoul stronger. Pretty specific circumstance but it was nice.

I'd hold off on Deathshroud staff for awhile. You want to take advantage of your mana as long as you can before the enemy comes marching toward you like a foolish zealot.

Another interesting thing of note is that the necro can use Sectarus (I think). I know it sounds crazy but those curses could really come in handy when you're not casting zombie frenzy.

Also in a bind you can use force wave to push all your zombies one square forward if you need the reach.

Just some thoughts. I haven't really got to talk about the Necromancer that much so feel free to get back to me.

[MrSaucy]

Oh how my Necromancer deck will feel more complete with this fine addition...

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1794795/mage-wars-plagued-promo-card

I change spellbooks all the time so I don't think I'll post my most current Necro spellbook. But I will say the only Conjuration I now use is Idol of Pestilence (not always an auto-play but still helpful) and I realize 4 Animate Dead and 4 Zombie Frenzy is complete overkill. I stick to 1-2 Rise Again, 1-2 Animate Dead, and 1 Zombie Frenzy.

I've added many "generally useful" spells to my Necro spellbook as well: battle fury, piercing strike, evade, divine might (holy I know... but it sucks to have no Ethereal attacks against Incorporeal creatures!!!), mana prism, mind shield, and tanglevine.

[MrSaucy]

After playing Necromancer pretty much non-stop the last week I have solidified my favorite necromancer spellbook.

2 Invisible Fist

1 Graveyard
2 Wall of Bones

6 Zombie Crawler
4 Zombie Minion
4 Venomous Zombie
1 Shaggoth-Zora
4 Unstable Zombie
4 Plague Zombie
2 Zombie Brute

2 Agony
3 Maim Wings
2 Marked for Death
2 Poisoned Blood
2 Ghoul Rot
1 Death Link
1 Harmonize
1 Nullify

1 Cloak of Shadows
1 Demonhide Armor
1 Leather Gloves
1 Death Ring
1 Libro Mortuos
1 Colossus Belt
1 Regrowth Belt
1 Leather Boots

2 Animate Dead
2 Zombie Frenzy
2 Seeking Dispel
4 Dispel
2 Force Push
2 Dissolve

[sdougla2]

Interesting. I've found Venomous Zombies ridiculously good against Living creatures, so I've been focusing on them. I'm also playing with Libro Mortuos instead of Graveyard.

And...Why do you have a Veteran's Belt when you only have one card that give you Armor?

I like to run fire attacks and/or Force Hammer so that I can kill annoying targets like Suppression Orb. How do you deal with conjurations that hurt creature swarms? Just power up Shaggoth?

[MrSaucy]

Interesting. I've found Venomous Zombies ridiculously good against Living creatures, so I've been focusing on them. I'm also playing with Libro Mortuos instead of Graveyard.

And...Why do you have a Veteran's Belt when you only have one card that give you Armor?

I like to run fire attacks and/or Force Hammer so that I can kill annoying targets like Suppression Orb. How do you deal with conjurations that hurt creature swarms? Just power up Shaggoth?

Yes Venomous Zombies are very helpful, but I chose to have 4 Zombie Minions because they are more useful against non-living creatures.

Libro and Graveyard are both really great in my opinion, but there are a few reasons why I prefer Graveyard: 1) Libro can be dissolved, Graveyard can't; 2) Graveyard is burnproof and immune to lightning; 3) Graveyard generates mana more rapidly, especially since you can trigger it with the destruction of both your creatures and your opponent's creatures. The drawback is that you don't always get to summon zombies right in your mage's zone but for me it is worth the tradeoff. I have found that it is difficult to get back in matches if Libro is dissolved.

I don't have Veteran's Belt, it is Colossus Belt. 

To be honest I don't always "swarm" with this build. I do whatever seems best at the time. My fallback is to rely on a few beefy creatures and my eternal servant ability. It isn't perfect but what are you going to do? But if I am swarming and I see Mordok's Obelisk I always try to take it out, possibly by using Zombie Frenzy. I was considering swapping out two invisible fist for one force hammer but I tend to prefer invisible fist for dispatching incorporeal threats (something the dark mages have a hard time dealing with.) I end up using Shaggoth and the Zombie Brutes as guards more than anything else (they aren't pests) but they make excellent threats too.

[sdougla2]

Ah, I misread the belt.

So far I've been focusing on Venomous Zombies against Living creatures and Zombie Brutes against Nonliving creatures, but I haven't really played against Nonliving creatures enough to see whether I'm happy with those matchups.

The Graveyard has a stronger potential late game, but I prefer Libro because of it's stronger early game. If my opponent tries to Dissolve it and I already have 4 Venomous Zombies down, oh well. I'm probably fine.