Wizard Tower

[ringkichard]

At what mana cost would Steelclaw Grizzly be too good, if any?

[Wiz-Pig]

At what mana cost would Steelclaw Grizzly be too good, if any?

He would start to reduce to the fun of the game costed at 15 mana because he would start pushing out a lot of variety from Beastmaster decks since he would be so clearly the better choice in most cases. At 12 mana he would start to cause some serious problems to the balance of the game as you could set up the ability to summon one every turn. I think in my mind he would be too good at 15 mana, but it really depends on how to define 'too good'.

I have a real problem with cards that a so much better then other options with similar functions not because that have the ability to ruin the playability of the game as a whole or because they are undefeatable, but because I love variety and they have  a tendency to diminsh the variety of viable strategies in the game.

[sIKE]

Let's not make Charmyna into the Dark Destroyer here. Charmyna's a very good player and an even better spellbook designer (better than I at both) but not the grand champion who can never be defeated.

I have said nothing about a Dark Destroyer here or some one being one. Yes he is a very good  player and is able to sus out very powerful card combo's. What I have suggested is to take a known build of his and have some play testers run against in number. That is the only way MW team will be able to determine if it is over powered or not. I can sit here all day and howl how powerful a card it is and nothing is going to change. It will have to be those who do the play testing to make the determination. With that said, it is still my opinion that the card is over powered for the combination of the four points in the OP itself.  Cost/non-Zone Exclusiveness/Spellbind/not Epic. Tune one of the parameters here and you will bring the card back into balance.

A Steelclaw Grizzly has a mana cost of 17, is a full cast, I cant change him out with another creature every turn, his book cost (non-nature) is 8. So he is balanced.
 - Make him a Quick Cast, unbalanced
- Make him cost 10 mana, unbalanced
- Let me change him out with another critter, brake the game
- Drop his level to 2, unbalanced

Here is the opposite of the Wizard Tower, if you make just one change on the Steelclaw he is very unbalanced. Honestly you could make a couple of change to the Tower and not break it or nerf it much. If you read through other threads here on the forums, you will clearly see that I am a staunch anti-nerf kind of guy. I have quit other game cold turkey. So for me to say something like this, I must think something is really broken.

[Stormmaster]

There is a difference between "balanced properly" and "too good".

Even if it was mana free doesn't mean you couldn't kill it or deal with it. 

Yes it would be out of balance though.  Besides it just would mean everyone would put a grizzly in their deck then it kind of negates it.

But you are right balance is key.  There are some cards a LOT of people use in a lot of decks, and there are some cards that hardly get dusted off.  Every card should get used some time, but I know some cards rarely do.  Maybe those are "too bad"?  No one talks about those cards, just the "too good" ones.  All subjective.

[sIKE]

I am done here, I have no more to say on the topic after this post. It is what is, I still suggest that anyone on the it is Balanced side of things run against a Earth Wizard build that uses WT in style reminiscent of a certain player on Octgn 20 or so times and then come back and let everyone know what they think from the experience they gain in those 20 or so games.

[Koz]

And even more to the point, I do think that a lot of the negative reaction to Wizard's Tower is because it's flashy. It gets a lot of attention playing attack spells that are tactically really strong, but cost a lot of manna somewhat inefficiently. But when you lose to Wizard's Tower you know it: your stuff got slammed, dazed, pushed, set on fire, and crushed to death.

Battleforge, which I have never heard anyone call to be nerfed, is very nearly as powerful. It's just much quieter, and far more long term strategic. You have to be paying pretty close attention to know that a Battleforge killed you.

This is a good point. 

I do think that these cards that have ready markers should be watched carefully.  They provide a huge action advantage that cannot be overstated.  But I don't suggest any rush to judgement on them or any sort of knee-jerk errata.  I think the Temple errata's went too far and I'd hate to see that precedent continued with Wiaard's Tower and Ballista.

[jacksmack]

@ Stormmaster

Just because a card can be killed or destroyed doesnt mean its fine.

Are we back to the "i just use a fireball vs ballista" solution?

Spending equal or more ressources to deal with a threat that already unleashed some of its damage / potential is very rarely going to win you any games.

I realize the that "equal" is a relative term simply because  10 mana for 1 one mage by more or less than 10 mana for another mage.
Some would argue that a mage with channeling 13 spends 11 mana to get rid of a threat that costs 10 mana played by a mage with 9 channeling actually gained momentum here if that threat never managed to release damage or have effect on the game before it was destroyed.

And this is alot more complex than so.
Just to mention a few factors:
Permanent Invested mana (creatures, conjurationsa, enchantments etc) and the current HP of these.
Channeling.
Life remaining on mages.
Board position.
Current initiative.
Next round initiative.

These factors and more unmentioned will of course manipulate wether its worth it or not to dedicate more ressources to deal with a threat your opponent presented than he payed for bringing it into play.

[Stormmaster]

One thing that balances (or helps balance) Wizard tower is you need to use your mana resources EVERY time you use it.  It isn't like it casts anything for 'Free'.  It gives you action advantage, and the slight channeling, but you still can't just chain cast huge fireballs or chain lightning or anything every turn without using up an entire turn's worth of mana.  So I think it is good but the mana need to fuel it balances it.  You have to "choose" cast a big spell or a medium creature, you can't do both.  So it has it's limits.

I guess I am just anti changing cards after they have been printed.  Add new cards that can deal with them, don't change existing ones.  I don't think they should have ever changed the temples (and that isn't because I even used them much) I just think they were good but could be played around or killed.  Just like the tower.

Further to the point these "too good" cards adds a challenge and complexity to the game which I really enjoy tackling, so hope they don't nerf or get rid of fun challenges to puzzle through and play with just because folks think they are good. 

[jacksmack]

One thing that balances (or helps balance) Wizard tower is you need to use your mana resources EVERY time you use it.  It isn't like it casts anything for 'Free'.  It gives you action advantage, and the slight channeling, but you still can't just chain cast huge fireballs or chain lightning or anything every turn without using up an entire turn's worth of mana.   So I think it is good but the mana need to fuel it balances it.  You have to "choose" cast a big spell or a medium creature, you can't do both.  So it has it's limits.

This right here tells me you have not played againts opponents who played a strong wizard including wizard tower.

You even make me doubt you read my OP in this thread.

Out of all the games i have lost to a wizard i have still to see a fireball or a chainlightning to be fired off the wizard tower.
_It_is_not_a_damage_tower_

And trust me... a good wizard will find those 3 mana to fire off a jetstream if its needed or 4mana for a surge wave. (tower pays 1).
And there will be a few rounds where it makes no sense to use tower, and then the action is wasted, but you gain additional discount the round after because it has channelled 1 more mana.

[sIKE]

I am going to break my own statement. Many times it is Harmonized and is generating 2 Mana a round....

[Shad0w]

Charmyna, The Dude and I have already sat down and talked about getting a meta game shift to happen. We are all working on alt Wizard builds everything for Earth Wizard control all the way to Earth Wizard Aggro and so many ideas in between. One of the things we agreed upon was the tower shines in the level of utility it provides. We did not agree that it was overpowered or not but I conceded it was near the border of being OP.

Yes it gives you a free action but you are still spending mana on each cast. Yes it may a be 3-5 mana per cast but that does have to be figured into the balance of this card. One thing that my group did was also compare the Damage Per Cast out to creatures that cost the same amount of mana.
We play the tower at 7 getting a hurl rock and casting it. that is 11cc for 5d, next round WT channels 1 so the next rock is 4-1 bc of WT ch bringing our total CC to 14 for 5d+5d. The thing is due to the fact creature cant act the turn they coming play the WT is  a round faster on the avg Damage Per Round due to the fact creatures need to ready before they can act.

When going into this debate we have so many factors to look at we could spend a day on each.

Some examples are
WT has no movement but spells have range is this greater asset than creatures that are able to move?

What is the value of a saved QC action?

How much does the 1 CH factor in?

[The Dude]

I've beaten Charmyna twice now. I haven't played a serious book against his wizard, but it is beatable.

[Moonglow]

It's also worth considering that perhaps it's thematic for every wizard to want their own tower

I'm not sure the conclusion from ToL to wizards tower comparisons are totally fair. The ToL had the same free action, both are range limited, the tower by the  spell, tol by its range 0-2 . ToL was mana free, but needed powering by temple building, which is 5-10 per temple to set up. The temples all give other benefits, but it's not a 0 to lethal in 60 seconds build. WT can start cracking on reasonable damage from word go. ToL is a one trick pony, WT is as good as the use you put it to.  Most temples (all?) are zone exclusive,  WT isn't, though I'm not sure that makes a huge difference does it? Since WT isn't like ToL where you want to stack multiple temples.

Ok think I've convinced myself, seems hard to see that the ToL is so much different to WT that it deserved nerfing while WT doesn't.. Except every wizard should want a tower

I guess I can also see that the WT still supports interesting combos,  while ToL strategies pre nerf seemed a little boring and frustrating. Not that being kicked around the arena by the WT isn't frustrating, but at least it doesn't have the effects of 6 other temples behind it.

[The Dude]

The reason WT is so good isn't because it is so versatile. That is part of it, yeah, no doubt, but what makes it so good is that it allows a player to actually turtle without fear of just about anything. I mean, I've seen/played the WT build 15-20 times now, and what do they use the tower to do? Sit in it. It's an effective, albeit boring strategy, and it is very, very much beatable. It just takes something more creative than a Warlock with Lash of Hellfire or a petted Grizzly.

[ringkichard]

In my experience Wizard's Tower is not played best as a turtle card, any more than Temple of Light was.

For example, I lost a game to Charm where Tower figured heavily. I made some tactical advantage with Teleport against his Gorgon to strand it in melee and the game came down to "who controls where the Gorgon is?" Which would normally favor me because Gorgon is slow and my Grizzly isn't, and I have it where I want it the turn I gain initiative. Unfortunately for me, Jetstream is a reliable push, and I could only push twice a turn while he could push thrice, and I could only combo once while he could combo twice. The Gorgon got shots off that a towerless Earth Mage wouldn't, and it was all downhill from there.

And just to comment on games I've won, too, I've definitely used Wizard's Tower to win games against better players that I wouldn't otherwise be have been able, and did it without much trouble. I promise I wasn't turtling with my Fire Mage. Hawkeye meant that I could cast Arcane Zap + Flameblast + Tower Attack for serious damage turn after turn and be gaining mana each turn.

I do have hope that Zombies will be a good counter to Wizard's Tower, because right now the best I can think of is to drop an Iron Golem on it.

For me, Wizard's Tower actually is what I expected Spawnpoints to be when I first started playing.