November 21, 2024, 10:38:54 PM

Author Topic: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.  (Read 45629 times)

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2014, 03:47:25 PM »
Plus counters get involved, dispels and reverse magic, and don't forget seeking dispel. If we get the chance to play on OCTGN, I promise to load up my spellbook with 6 Seeking Dispels.......Transfuse that ;)

Actually, as per new FAQ, Enchantment Transfusion counters Seeking Dispel and Dispel
As long as I have a different target to move set-up to, even in the same zone (see FAQ)
So if I have 4 stacked hidden enchants, all Seeking Dispel does is cost me 1 Transfusion
As for trying to hit my wizard with any Incantation (like counter Teleport) that I don't like...
"Wizard says: Deny!" (Oh, fond memories of my Kismet Stasis Howling Mine denial deck)

Yes, I really do need to learn OCTGN, just to expose to new metas
I confess I am scared as I will be useless while I learn the interface
I will probably join under another name while learning the interface
One day soon, sIKE (or GenCon? I'm definitely flying over this year)

My problem with the Golem Pit + Transfusion (as always) is you are talking at least 6-7 rounds before you can pull it off, and you are telegraphing like crazy.

Yes, it's a round 7 kill against no disruption (never happens) but it summons a Golem on round 2, 4, 5 and 6.
That's quite a defence to penetrate. It faced so many aggro builds and won. I feared Control builds far more.

Even a turtling Priestess should be able to disrupt this play.

You're right, sIKE, my only loss piloting Golem Pit was a marathon against Priestess who turtled (as Koz said)
But that was a book built specifically to beat it (Divine Intervention, why does Light harm ferric metal so much?)
I also made a mistake at the end (my play skill deteriorates over long social gaming as my bladder expands...)

But how are they when played against a competent player on the other side of the board?

My local meta may not be your standard, sIKE (I look up to Charmyna and Piousflea most) but they're not bad.
I play other books, sIKE, Straywood is probably my next best mage, but prefer Wizard Wand Control variants.
You can spot I was an Azorius player (Blue White denial/kill control) in my competitive tournament Magic days.

Back to the topic:
You seem to have almost a pathological hatred of Wands, the implements of Wizards.
I think you missed my implicit criticism that Wands are great but only in specific builds.

Mage Wands
So what I would add to the debate here is:
1. Mage Wand does not let you skimp on Incants (Tower and Elemental lets you skimp on Attack spells)
2. Wands do allow you to focus on a range 2 spell (above Dissolve range) and abuse it with other spells
3. The hate they attract (2 spell action burst at range 1 due to Nullify) also protects your other equipment
4. Wand Control requires discipline to win within a time limit so if your opponent plays slowly, change tack
5. Give up on playing Wand Control if facing the Druid (a vine range Dissolve that bypasses Nullify - gulp!)

Wands do play a part in Mage Wars, but mainly playing Wizard Control
Wands act as an insurance policy to pursue a particular strategy
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2014, 05:50:55 PM »
@Deckbuilder,

I have no hate for Wands, just builds that primary focus is Wand to generate the win condition. I like to have one typically and something scary on it, as Dissolve bait, they work real good for that purpose. Just been caught by Charmnya with a Wand and something (useless) bound to it and feeling that I had wasted mana and actions.

As for Enchantment Transfusion, what page did you read that on? If I Seeking Dispel your Enchantment Transfusion you can not activate it and it is gone.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Aylin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2014, 06:18:13 PM »
As for Enchantment Transfusion, what page did you read that on? If I Seeking Dispel your Enchantment Transfusion you can not activate it and it is gone.

He meant that if he had a creature with at least two enchantments on it, one being Enchantment Transfusion and some unknown enchantment, and you targeted the unknown enchantment with Seeking Dispel, he could reveal Enchantment Transfusion to move the enchantment to a new creature, making the Seeking Dispel have no legal target.

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2014, 06:27:50 PM »
As for Enchantment Transfusion, what page did you read that on? If I Seeking Dispel your Enchantment Transfusion you can not activate it and it is gone.

p7 point 2
p34 top

Next thing you will tell us you have been shuffling your hidden enchants! :)

Edit: oh just realised Aylin has already explained. Soz
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2014, 06:42:51 PM »
As for Enchantment Transfusion, what page did you read that on? If I Seeking Dispel your Enchantment Transfusion you can not activate it and it is gone.

p7 point 2
p34 top

Next thing you will tell us you have been shuffling your hidden enchants! :)

Edit: oh just realised Aylin has already explained. Soz
Still if I target the hidden Enchantment Transfusion with Seeking Dispel you can not counter it by revealing the Enchantment Transfusion, other than by Jinxing me...

Next thing you will tell us you have been shuffling your hidden enchants! :)
Funny, but we need a spell to do that 8)
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2014, 07:16:38 PM »
SiKE, Do you think that would be a good spell for the illusionist?

And Brazil, if wands were as overpowered as you seem to think they are, don't you think that many of the more experienced players would have noticed by now? What are the chances of one card that everyone knows about that has been present since the core set, that pretty much everyone has either played or played against being overpowered with only your playgroup realizing it? The chances of that are astronomically small.

Multiple people have given very good explanations of how wands are not overpowered, except possibly in your own group's meta, and gave you sound strategic advice for how to solve the wand problem that your playgroup is having. Why not try to apply some of that advice, and then come back to this thread and tell us how it went?

If nothing else works, try having someone record a game log and then post that log on here, and we can help you figure out what's causing the wands to be monopolizing the gameplay in your meta, and how to fix it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 07:34:50 PM by Imaginator »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2014, 01:38:50 AM »
I feel as though wands are a very useful tool in any mages book. I generally play Beast Master and my spell book is of course filled with creatures. I do keep a Mage Wand and an Elemental Wand on hand however with a few spells to let me adapt to a situation as need be. Mind you I'm paying 6 points to keep them in my spellbook but then I like to keep my options open as that's my play style.

However as a Beast Master I've found that a large group of hungry critters is a fantastic way to bring down Harry, Dumbledore, or any other "Potter Duel" you'd care to name. Hehehe trying producing a Patronus when there's a grizzly bear mauling your face!
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Aylin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2014, 02:00:56 AM »
I feel as though wands are a very useful tool in any mages book. I generally play Beast Master and my spell book is of course filled with creatures. I do keep a Mage Wand and an Elemental Wand on hand however with a few spells to let me adapt to a situation as need be. Mind you I'm paying 6 points to keep them in my spellbook but then I like to keep my options open as that's my play style.

However as a Beast Master I've found that a large group of hungry critters is a fantastic way to bring down Harry, Dumbledore, or any other "Potter Duel" you'd care to name. Hehehe trying producing a Patronus when there's a grizzly bear mauling your face!

Why are you spending 6 points? The Beastmaster isn't trained in Arcane or any element, so the cost to include either the elemental or mage wand is 4.

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2014, 02:22:21 AM »
Because my math skills are poor due to the lack of proper math teachers in Straywood. Forgot the Mage Wand is a 2 cost and not a 1. It's correctly counted in my spellbook. Sorry bout that, at work and mildly distracted. Thanks for catching it.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2014, 05:29:52 AM »
As for Enchantment Transfusion, what page did you read that on? If I Seeking Dispel your Enchantment Transfusion you can not activate it and it is gone.

He meant that if he had a creature with at least two enchantments on it, one being Enchantment Transfusion and some unknown enchantment, and you targeted the unknown enchantment with Seeking Dispel, he could reveal Enchantment Transfusion to move the enchantment to a new creature, making the Seeking Dispel have no legal target.

Not sure if this is correct. Since the spell targets the enchantment and not the creature why does moving it to another creature make it no longer a legal target? Is that in the FAQ?
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2014, 05:37:16 AM »
I think the point is that you move the targeted enchantment out of range so it's no longer a legal target.

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2014, 06:23:29 AM »
I think the point is that you move the targeted enchantment out of range so it's no longer a legal target.

No, the targeted enchant just needs to be moved to another target to attach onto, even in the same zone.
See the page 7 point 2 and top of page 34 of FAQ.
Yes, you can "counter" a Dispel or Steal Enchant or Seeking Dispel by spending a Transfuion hidden with target to move it to another target, even in the same zone.
It's to keep uniformity with instant speed Teleport that is Divine Intervention.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2014, 06:48:56 AM »
Well, I stand corrected. If nothing else, this thread has gotten very educational.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2014, 09:59:06 AM »
Ok, I want to understand what you are saying here.

I reveal Seeking Dispel, you say "stop" reveal Enchantment Transfusion and move all of the Enchantments off to another target creature? Now my Seek Dispel is useless?

No where in the FAQ or rules do I come away with that understanding.

If I target an unrevealed Enchantment with Seeking Dispel that is not the Enchantment Transfusion, then what you have described is true during the Counter Spell step, however if I target the un-revealed Enchantment Transfusion, it is gone nothing you can do but have a Jinx already attached to me.

Regardless if I make you pop your ET early, more than likely it is a tempo disrupter and could really disrupt all of your plans. What if I use the Seeking Dispel to rid the zone of the Teleport Trap? Many ways to pop a hole in that strategy.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: The Harry Potter mechanic of the game bothers me a bit.
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2014, 12:54:14 PM »
If I target an unrevealed Enchantment with Seeking Dispel that is not the Enchantment Transfusion, then what you have described is true during the Counter Spell step, however if I target the un-revealed Enchantment Transfusion, it is gone nothing you can do.

Yes, you pick Transfusion in the stack and it's dead because of Seeking Dispel wording.
You pick any other hidden enchant and I can always opt to save it (if it's my last copy)
You try to Purge Magic my stack and I move it onto you in response
But this all assumes you are within 2 of me (1 in case of Purge) which means trouble!

What if I use the Seeking Dispel to rid the zone of the Teleport Trap? Many ways to pop a hole in that strategy.

The Teleport Trap is only ever cast if I have to teleport my victim from his corner to my corner.
How can you Seeking Dispel it from your corner when I've recently cast it in my Near Centre?
Otherwise I don't need Teleport Trap. I don't really need Spiked Pit either. It's all just insurance!
Plenty of ways to skin a cat, Force Hold, Tanglevine etc. You pick a weakness in enemy's build.

Hey, the build has aged with new DvN cards but every piece (Fog Bank vs. Hammer etc) plays it part
The Dude appreciated the relevance of each of the pieces, why it's so damningly effective (and boring)
Although I made references to it a full month before (GenCon prediction etc), I kept it under wraps
As I felt it did not do the game benefit to expose what I tested was such a simple powerful strategy
I unveiled just before original DvN release date as I thought Acid Ball & Raptors previewed weaken it
What weakens it is Orchid (but it packs 4 Teleports anyway) and Cloak of Shadows (Dark Mage Only)
Let's not discuss what I see as design mistakes (Iron Golem was too good, Hurl Boulder maybe too)
It's all academic as you and I both know steps are being taken to curb Teleport Wars and Tele-kills

sIKE. Let's not argue over Golem Pit in a thread where many will be totally mystified by our squabble
How come we're on the same wavelength in PMs yet clash so often? (Mind Control, Golem Pit, the list feels endless.)
Very recently, I found myself arguing the same as you. "This can't be right" I said so I switched sides! :)


Back to the topic at hand, folks (before a Shad0w looms above these petty squabbles)
Let's see... how to bring Tranfusion into the Harry Potter OP...

Because you can use Transfusion to move Nullify onto your Mage when Dissolve is cast on your Wand, it is possible to protect it but you are trading 2 actions for 1 (less mana probably with Arcane and Enchanter's Ring as standard). It isn't just the single Nullify you need to trigger off before the Dissolve but the back-up that comes whizzing in from that Hydra within 2. Getting an uninterrupted burst of 3 fast spell actions is almost impossible (Example: cast last in Final QC, gain Iniitiative, Early QC then act first - but opponent can lay down another Nullify in his Early QC phase).

I say "almost impossible" because it is possible. Just very difficult to pull off.

Enchant Transfusion moving multiple enchantments (curses anyone?) is "action compression" within a non-action opportunity window. Conjuring spell actions out of nowhere (you have paid for them already +1 for Transfusion) is priceless. This underused spell promotes so much Control and almost single handedly creates the Combo archetype in a game of pick your cards.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:04:18 PM by DeckBuilder »
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.