Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions

[The Dude]

I don't see why people think ToL is too good. It's not. It's a simple combo that is easily beatable if your play is optimal. Them dropping ToL near center means you can easily block LOS for half the board, and if they play it anywhere else, you can cut range significantly. Making them choose a threat to daze/stun can mean the difference between living and dying, and honestly, the chance to stun gets so low, because most players think more hands the better, that dazing could really not make a difference whatsoever, especially with Akiro's Favor. I just think it's a non issue that too many players think is OP.

[The Dude]

as well, there are muh more effective fixes than nerfing the card. Level 2 would not nerf it, nor would it being 6 mana. Fixing the FAQ to read "Attack bonuses only happen for the first attack made by a creature each round" fixes BF without any card alteration.

[Hellkite]

If there is going to be any change to Hand of Bim-Shalla I would prefer it just slows down how fast they can be played.  If you want to limit playing 3 hands and 1ToL by turn 2 then make the hands cost 8.  I would also consider making them level 2 so 6 of them cannot be ran in the same spellbook.  This combo in particular is probably just a little too fast at the moment, but as a general rule... I am against changing cards unless it is absolutely needed.

[sIKE]

nerf something

I will drop AW as fast as I dropped Everquest 1&2, can't stand nerfing, its total BS I F'in hate it. Hope I have relayed how much I despise nerfing...

[sdougla2]

I don't know that ToL is overpowered. It's annoying though. In retrospect, I may have made it sound like I wanted the card nerfed. I actually meant that if Hand or ToL were to be nerfed, I would much rather have ToL nerfed than Hand. That should teach me to post when I'm barely coherent... Overall though, it would make more sense to avoid changes to individual cards aside from clarifying them. If something becomes too big a problem, I suppose they could implement a banned list, but hopefully they can avoid that, and it's not warranted yet.

[sIKE]

as well, there are muh more effective fixes than nerfing the card. Level 2 would not nerf it, nor would it being 6 mana. Fixing the FAQ to read "Attack bonuses only happen for the first attack made by a creature each round" fixes BF without any card alteration.

I am guessing that BF is BS (Bim-Shala) and Attack bonuses already have that limitation. Its the stack of multiple BS that tilt things. Then add in the stack with ToL not only on the attack dice but effect dice and it is quite quite brutal....

Now if you are trying to say that only one BS can be used by a creature each round, then that in my opinion is a nerf, and I have expressed myself about nerfing.... >

[Kharhaz]

as well, there are muh more effective fixes than nerfing the card. Level 2 would not nerf it, nor would it being 6 mana. Fixing the FAQ to read "Attack bonuses only happen for the first attack made by a creature each round" fixes BF without any card alteration.

I am guessing that BF is BS (Bim-Shala) and Attack bonuses already have that limitation. Its the stack of multiple BS that tilt things. Then add in the stack with ToL not only on the attack dice but effect dice and it is quite quite brutal....

Now if you are trying to say that only one BS can be used by a creature each round, then that in my opinion is a nerf, and I have expressed myself about nerfing.... >

So the "problem" is this cheap, quick cast, very powerful, stacking, level one, conjuration that requires no LoS?

Seems to me like Hand of Bim-Shalla should have been an Epic (unique at the very least) card, like every other crazy awesome conjuration from the original set.

Sometimes you have to "nerf" things for the sake of balance and for the betterment / overall enjoyment of the game. At the very least this should open up a "restricted" list of cards discussion to see which way the developers decide to take their game. I understand it is an issue of fixing already circulating cards but I think the number of hands that were at origins, in every archetype, speaks volumes about the use of temples in EVERY archetype.

Congratulation to the winner! Good to see the fundamentals staying strong and not being completely replaced by the last expansion.

[Paleblue]

I don't think that either should be nerfed yet. I'm sure that we will adjust our strategy to be able to defeat the build (would be great to get some more suggestions about how).

Who knows we might get armor in the future with -holy on it which would work nicely.

[The Dude]

BF is Battle Fury. Not Bim.

[tarkin84]

By no means I wanted to give the impression that I think BS+ToL is overpowered. They are a powerful tool to win the game just the same as there are more powerful cards like Battle fury or Lord of fire, but I've never felt myself like "OMG, opponent deployed his ToL, I'm lost". There are many plays around the ToL, you only have to pick yours (I must admit that limiting LoS is a smart move I've used only once or twice and should use a lot more).

However, if the playing field over there is so full of BS+ToL as piousflea made me think it is, this wonderful game could become somewhat less interesting (always playing against the same starting moves no matter the mage is boring) and that's a fact that should be taken into account. I'm not a fan of nerfing, which should be done only if everything else fails, but if the metagame cannot adjust itself and if possible solutions introduced in next expansions sets are not sufficient I wouldn't be sad if BS and/or ToL are given errata.

Just an opinion from a Spanish guy who is very jealous of you guys who can run MW tournaments (our player base is quite low at the moment).

[Shad0w]

This is a long talk that the AW team and rules team is having. Like most stated we hate changing cards in any ways once the have made print in a set. Things like promos are ok to change as long as they have not been in a set. I would like to give a better answer but till I talk to Bryan and the AW team it is the best I can give.

[cbalian]

I would think it would be VERY detrimental to "change" cards after they are printed.  If you changed it and then reprinted the same card you would have 2 different versions of the same card floating around.

Honestly there is a way around ANY card or combo.  So once something exists that "seems" overpowered, really it isn't OP it just means it is something you have to deal with and there is almost always a way to deal with it.

For example if I see a "temple build" combo starting I usually let Hand of Bim go and when the Temple of Light hits I just toss all my resources on that for a turn (or 2 if I have to) and bam the "combo" is no longer a combo and nutrilized.  Hurl a boulder at the temple, it gets +2 vs conjurations and there are other attacks like that, or if not running that toss a couple big creatures at it.

So I would DEFINITELY not reprint/change ANY card, There is NO card that is "too good".  Just find a way around it or in the next expansion come up with a 'new' card that can be used against it.

[Shad0w]

I would think it would be VERY detrimental to "change" cards after they are printed.  If you changed it and then reprinted the same card you would have 2 different versions of the same card floating around.

Honestly there is a way around ANY card or combo.  So once something exists that "seems" overpowered, really it isn't OP it just means it is something you have to deal with and there is almost always a way to deal with it.

For example if I see a "temple build" combo starting I usually let Hand of Bim go and when the Temple of Light hits I just toss all my resources on that for a turn (or 2 if I have to) and bam the "combo" is no longer a combo and nutrilized.  Hurl a boulder at the temple, it gets +2 vs conjurations and there are other attacks like that, or if not running that toss a couple big creatures at it.

So I would DEFINITELY not reprint/change ANY card, There is NO card that is "too good".  Just find a way around it or in the next expansion come up with a 'new' card that can be used against it.

This is my point of view on the topic, but in the end it comes down to what is best for the community.

[Trotsky]

I am a pretty new player to MW and it is interesting to hear all this discussion about the current meta-game. I have only played one game against a temple deck (maybe not as aggressive as the ones you are discussing here), but I found blocking LOS and teleporting was pretty successful against it.

I would like to see a future card that gave temples/conjurations an upkeep cost - like Mordok does for creatures. This would not stop the combo but would give the opponent an opportunity to out play it.

[jacksmack]

This is my view on the Hand + temple popopopowah!

All of you who talk about dedicating ressources (actions and mana) to take down this temple forget one thing.
You end up paying almost same mana if not more. And atleast same actions (daze??? stun???). And guess what.... the priestess still get off the tower attack atleast once (per tower) so you are losing momentum!

Hurl boulder is 8 mana (isnt it?).
Tower is 9 mana.

Tower most likely daze on top of a good attack for just ONE more mana than you spend neutralizing tower.
Plus you might not one shot it - you might even miss becayuse of daze or you have to spend extra actions to get rid of daze and ensure a hit.

When that is said:
Its not like that the Hand + Pew pew tower combo loses all its value once you have torn through 2 or 3 towers... Guess what... there is still 3-4 or even more hands that will benefit the owner big time through the rest of the battle.
Remember... the hands ALONE are worth their individual cost. The occasional 9 extra mana for a big chance to daze and decent damage output each round that the opponent can hardly ignore and will on average spend much more ressources to stop than you spent for tower is just very very strong.
But its important to take into the equation, that when the Hand + Tower combo is broken down... only X times 9 mana is wasted because the Hands still works brillaintly on their own.

This is all the while the priestess can equip her staff and do good damage with hands and chance to daze, or if she is swarmed and focused choose armor to negate the damage until she get backup from her temple and gaining advantage taking down creatures while she keeps all her mana spent in the arena.

I have not tried to wall off the tower, but i believe that could be a better solution in some cases.


I want to make a final note on the temple build.
It is one of the builds with most variance due to fact it relies so much on daze and stun and attack rolls that fail from daze.
Some will get lucky getting hit with few dazes and 0 stuns and on top of that they will succed the daze roll when they do those rolls and then claim that temple build is shit.
Others will face non stop dazes only replaced with an occasional stun while their creatures fail all the daze attack rolls.


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