Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Player Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: piousflea on June 17, 2013, 09:02:04 PM
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So Origins 2013 is over. At least 2/3 of the Tournament of Champions builds ran large numbers of Hands of Bimshalla plus Temple of Light, and the undefeated winning build (Steve Walters priestess) used 6x Hand and 3x Temple.
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So here's what is interesting about a Temple Build. The Hand of Bimshalla is only mildly overpowered by itself. The temple of light is worthless without Hands (you'll never get enough Dawnbreakers to buff it). However, the combo of Hand plus ToL proved to be absolutely over the top overpowered.
I am of the opinion that Mage Wars needs more strong combos, not less. However, Hand+ToL is not the right model to base them on, for the following reasons:
- Hand and Temple are both quick spells. You can have 3 hands + ToL and roll a 4 dice ranged attack on Round 2. This is far too fast of a combo, compared to how long it takes to get creatures or equipment out.
- Hand and Temple do not reward an opponent for trying to interrupt the combo. At 5 mana and level 1, it is easy to replace destroyed Hands. Temple is even worse. If your Temple attacks, then dies, recasting ToL lets you get a 2nd temple attack off on the same round! Ironically, killing the temple actually INCREASES its damage output.
However, I am all for combo cards being stronger. They just need limitations. Any combination of the following will work:
1) requires time (every-upkeep-phase effects)
2) requires map control (must control X outposts, Y zone exclusives, etc)
3) requires specific creatures (all soldiers gain X. Requires an Angel, a Knight, and 2 Clerics)
4) requires another card type (effect multiplied by number of temples, of walls, of mana Conjurations, etc.)
5) requires specific "combo points"
Some hypothetical examples:
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(1, 3) Mithril forge - generates Blade tokens each round and after X tokens gives a +Piercing or + melee bonus to Soldiers.
(2,3,4) Temple of Protection - Any time an attack is declared against a friendly creature within 0-2 range and LoS, you may pay 2 mana to use Temple of Protection as a defense. (d12+X) 10+, where X = number of Clerics you control.
(1,2,3) Idol of Desecration - Every upkeep phase, gain a Desecration token for every zone that contains a Demon creature you control. When a friendly Demon creature enters play, you may spend 9 Desecration tokens to teleport him into a zone with any other Demon creature you control, and activate his action marker.
(1,5) Hive - Generates an Insect token every round.
Thousand Stings - Attack spell. You must pay 2 Insect tokens as part of the casting cost. High damage zone Poison attack.
Insect Swarm - Enchantment. You must pay 3 Insect tokens as part of the reveal cost. Inflicts Poison damage every round. When target creature is destroyed, you may immediately cast and reveal Insect Swarm for no cost on any other creature in the same zone.
Hive Queen - Creature. Unique. You must pay 6 Insect tokens as part of the casting cost, but this creature does not cost mana. Generates Insect tokens every round.
(1,4) Quickened Mind - Enchant. During the Upkeep phase, gain a Thought token for each Psychic card you control. Gain a Thought token every time you cast a Psychic incantation. Maximum 6 Thought tokens. Immediately after any of your action phases, you may spend 6 Thought tokens to reset your Quick Cast marker.
(3,4) Entrench - Incantation. Until the end of the round, all your Soldier creatures gain Aegis X while Guarding, where X = the number of Walls you control.
(3,4) Malediction - Incantation, targets enemy creature. Performs an X dice Poison zone attack centered around target creature, where X is the total number of revealed Curse enchantments on the creature.
(2,4) Rain Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud, all Corporeal objects in this zone, or corporeal Walls bordering this zone, gain Flame -2 and Acid -2
Thunder Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud. Every upkeep performs a 2 dice Lightning zone attack with Flying +1
Smoke Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud. Blocks Line of Sight to or from all objects within this zone. Does not affect walls bordering this zone.
Hurricane - Unique Conjuration, Cloud. Every upkeep phase, pay 3 upkeep to perform an X dice Wind zone attack (-3 vs Clouds) against every zone containing a friendly Cloud, where X = total number of Clouds you control.
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At first glance it would appear the Akiro's Hammer might be more useful here than typical. It is by design a Conjuration breaker.
I am interested in how long it took to get the six Hands and Temple out. Are we saying 4 turns? Seven Dice of Damage each round would be quite over powering!
I was half expecting to hear that the FM Hand Solo build would be the winner here.....
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Do you have any thoughts on how to counter the Temple strategy you mentioned? I have played against something similar and I have considered that it might be best to teleport the enemy priest to your side of the map where a basilisk (to try keep them pinned) and a hydra can beat them down. This would avoid the shots from the TOS if it was already placed.
Something such as;
(Wizard)
Turn one Hydra
Turn two Basilisk (move the hydra one space)
Turn three move and teleport enemy priest to your side (into hydra space).
Problem of course is they still have Bim Shalla for support and if they wait to place the TOS they can dump it onto your head after the teleport.
Anyway back to the original topic, I think some of the suggested cards look great!
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I find it funny that if he had 7 temples and attacked a non living creature he would only have a 1/12 chance to stun instead of 2/12. and if he managed to have 8 temples and attack a non living he would have 0/12 chance to stun
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Hands are so damn strong. Hand synergy with ToL is just sick.
I really wish that hands were lvl 2 and either cost 2 more mana to cast or that the same effect from multiple hands didnt stack on the same target.
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or if hands actually had Line of Sight to work
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or if hands actually had Line of Sight to work
yep and 0-2 zones.
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The build of my FM aggro was running 3 hands and 2 ToL for this reason. I am surprised it took this long for people to notice.
@Pious told you so :P
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The build of my FM aggro was running 3 hands and 2 ToL for this reason. I am surprised it took this long for people to notice.
@Pious told you so :P
Well, some of us noticed this a long time ago, I've been crowing about how good Temples are (and Hands specifically) since last year. ;)
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Hands are so damn strong. Hand synergy with ToL is just sick.
I really wish that hands were lvl 2 and either cost 2 more mana to cast or that the same effect from multiple hands didnt stack on the same target.
I don't think increasing the mana for a Hand of Bim-Shalla by 2 would be okay, since it would not be worth running them at 7 mana. They're already less efficient than dedicated options for attack/armor/healing, they just offer flexibility. I'm not totally convinced that they'd be worth running at 6 mana except with Temple of Light. I think Temple of Light is the bigger issue, since it scales up so well with the addition of cheap, flexible Hands (it makes a Hand of Bim-Shalla as efficient as Bear Strength from a damage perspective, but much more flexible), and it gives a fantastic Daze/Stun chance.
As for line of sight/range for Hands, that would make me rarely want to run them, since it would invite blocking line of sight, I couldn't play them early if I wanted to be aggressive, and they would lose a great deal of the flexibility that makes them valuable now.
I would rather Temple of Light was nerfed rather than Hand of Bim-Shalla.
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Level 2 and six mana. can't run 6, now cost 4 points Out Of School, and you can't drop them all by Round 2. ToL is a non issue and is easily played around.
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I don't really care about Hand of Bim but as soon as a temple of light hits the board I knock it down before it knocks me down. I don't even bother touching the Hand and focus resources on killing the preistess. The temple build deck preistesses I played died because they relied too much on temples and didn't support/defend them. But I was running an earth wizard so hurl a couple boulders at the temples and they crash no problem.
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I've said Hands should have been level 2 for awhile now. However, I'm not sure that Arcane Wonders needs to react just yet, because they may nerf the card when the situation may work itself out through evolution of play. They can't just nerf every card that shows up in a lot of builds, otherwise what's next? Battle Fury? Elemental Cloak?
They should wait and see how this plays out and only take action if there is a problem long term.
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I've said Hands should have been level 2 for awhile now. However, I'm not sure that Arcane Wonders needs to react just yet, because they may nerf the card when the situation may work itself out through evolution of play. They can't just nerf every card that shows up in a lot of builds, otherwise what's next? Battle Fury? Elemental Cloak?
They should wait and see how this plays out and only take action if there is a problem long term.
I agree that it's early to nerf something, and I wouldn't mind if Hand of Bim-Shalla was level 2, I just don't like many of the possible nerfs people were suggesting.
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My group have been playing the game for 2 months and after we unpacked our core sets we saw that the Hand, at spell cost 1, was just too good not to be played in many builds. And, after including 3 Hands in our builds, it was almost difficult not to make space for at least a single Temple of Light. I've already played a pack consisting on 3x Hands, 1-2x Temple of Light and 0-1x Temple of the Dawnbreaker depending on if I played defenses in many builds: wizard, priestess, warlord (not very spectacular but I had to try it) and, of course, forcemaster.
I already thought that these two cards (hand and ToL) were very good, but having read piousflea's comment about Origins being overwhelmed by them just made me happy as that means I am learning the game at a good pace :D
Still, maybe we should give veteran players some time to adjust to this holy invasion before artificially changing anything. Or some spell could be added to the next expansion to keep this in check if another solution is not found.
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I don't see why people think ToL is too good. It's not. It's a simple combo that is easily beatable if your play is optimal. Them dropping ToL near center means you can easily block LOS for half the board, and if they play it anywhere else, you can cut range significantly. Making them choose a threat to daze/stun can mean the difference between living and dying, and honestly, the chance to stun gets so low, because most players think more hands the better, that dazing could really not make a difference whatsoever, especially with Akiro's Favor. I just think it's a non issue that too many players think is OP.
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as well, there are muh more effective fixes than nerfing the card. Level 2 would not nerf it, nor would it being 6 mana. Fixing the FAQ to read "Attack bonuses only happen for the first attack made by a creature each round" fixes BF without any card alteration.
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If there is going to be any change to Hand of Bim-Shalla I would prefer it just slows down how fast they can be played. If you want to limit playing 3 hands and 1ToL by turn 2 then make the hands cost 8. I would also consider making them level 2 so 6 of them cannot be ran in the same spellbook. This combo in particular is probably just a little too fast at the moment, but as a general rule... I am against changing cards unless it is absolutely needed.
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nerf something
I will drop AW as fast as I dropped Everquest 1&2, can't stand nerfing, its total BS I F'in hate it. Hope I have relayed how much I despise nerfing...
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I don't know that ToL is overpowered. It's annoying though. In retrospect, I may have made it sound like I wanted the card nerfed. I actually meant that if Hand or ToL were to be nerfed, I would much rather have ToL nerfed than Hand. That should teach me to post when I'm barely coherent... Overall though, it would make more sense to avoid changes to individual cards aside from clarifying them. If something becomes too big a problem, I suppose they could implement a banned list, but hopefully they can avoid that, and it's not warranted yet.
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as well, there are muh more effective fixes than nerfing the card. Level 2 would not nerf it, nor would it being 6 mana. Fixing the FAQ to read "Attack bonuses only happen for the first attack made by a creature each round" fixes BF without any card alteration.
I am guessing that BF is BS (Bim-Shala) and Attack bonuses already have that limitation. Its the stack of multiple BS that tilt things. Then add in the stack with ToL not only on the attack dice but effect dice and it is quite quite brutal....
Now if you are trying to say that only one BS can be used by a creature each round, then that in my opinion is a nerf, and I have expressed myself about nerfing.... >:)
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as well, there are muh more effective fixes than nerfing the card. Level 2 would not nerf it, nor would it being 6 mana. Fixing the FAQ to read "Attack bonuses only happen for the first attack made by a creature each round" fixes BF without any card alteration.
I am guessing that BF is BS (Bim-Shala) and Attack bonuses already have that limitation. Its the stack of multiple BS that tilt things. Then add in the stack with ToL not only on the attack dice but effect dice and it is quite quite brutal....
Now if you are trying to say that only one BS can be used by a creature each round, then that in my opinion is a nerf, and I have expressed myself about nerfing.... >:)
So the "problem" is this cheap, quick cast, very powerful, stacking, level one, conjuration that requires no LoS?
Seems to me like Hand of Bim-Shalla should have been an Epic (unique at the very least) card, like every other crazy awesome conjuration from the original set.
Sometimes you have to "nerf" things for the sake of balance and for the betterment / overall enjoyment of the game. At the very least this should open up a "restricted" list of cards discussion to see which way the developers decide to take their game. I understand it is an issue of fixing already circulating cards but I think the number of hands that were at origins, in every archetype, speaks volumes about the use of temples in EVERY archetype.
Congratulation to the winner! Good to see the fundamentals staying strong and not being completely replaced by the last expansion.
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I don't think that either should be nerfed yet. I'm sure that we will adjust our strategy to be able to defeat the build (would be great to get some more suggestions about how).
Who knows we might get armor in the future with -holy on it which would work nicely.
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BF is Battle Fury. Not Bim.
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By no means I wanted to give the impression that I think BS+ToL is overpowered. They are a powerful tool to win the game just the same as there are more powerful cards like Battle fury or Lord of fire, but I've never felt myself like "OMG, opponent deployed his ToL, I'm lost". There are many plays around the ToL, you only have to pick yours (I must admit that limiting LoS is a smart move I've used only once or twice and should use a lot more).
However, if the playing field over there is so full of BS+ToL as piousflea made me think it is, this wonderful game could become somewhat less interesting (always playing against the same starting moves no matter the mage is boring) and that's a fact that should be taken into account. I'm not a fan of nerfing, which should be done only if everything else fails, but if the metagame cannot adjust itself and if possible solutions introduced in next expansions sets are not sufficient I wouldn't be sad if BS and/or ToL are given errata.
Just an opinion from a Spanish guy who is very jealous of you guys who can run MW tournaments (our player base is quite low at the moment). ;)
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This is a long talk that the AW team and rules team is having. Like most stated we hate changing cards in any ways once the have made print in a set. Things like promos are ok to change as long as they have not been in a set. I would like to give a better answer but till I talk to Bryan and the AW team it is the best I can give.
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I would think it would be VERY detrimental to "change" cards after they are printed. If you changed it and then reprinted the same card you would have 2 different versions of the same card floating around.
Honestly there is a way around ANY card or combo. So once something exists that "seems" overpowered, really it isn't OP it just means it is something you have to deal with and there is almost always a way to deal with it.
For example if I see a "temple build" combo starting I usually let Hand of Bim go and when the Temple of Light hits I just toss all my resources on that for a turn (or 2 if I have to) and bam the "combo" is no longer a combo and nutrilized. Hurl a boulder at the temple, it gets +2 vs conjurations and there are other attacks like that, or if not running that toss a couple big creatures at it.
So I would DEFINITELY not reprint/change ANY card, There is NO card that is "too good". Just find a way around it or in the next expansion come up with a 'new' card that can be used against it.
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I would think it would be VERY detrimental to "change" cards after they are printed. If you changed it and then reprinted the same card you would have 2 different versions of the same card floating around.
Honestly there is a way around ANY card or combo. So once something exists that "seems" overpowered, really it isn't OP it just means it is something you have to deal with and there is almost always a way to deal with it.
For example if I see a "temple build" combo starting I usually let Hand of Bim go and when the Temple of Light hits I just toss all my resources on that for a turn (or 2 if I have to) and bam the "combo" is no longer a combo and nutrilized. Hurl a boulder at the temple, it gets +2 vs conjurations and there are other attacks like that, or if not running that toss a couple big creatures at it.
So I would DEFINITELY not reprint/change ANY card, There is NO card that is "too good". Just find a way around it or in the next expansion come up with a 'new' card that can be used against it.
This is my point of view on the topic, but in the end it comes down to what is best for the community.
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I am a pretty new player to MW and it is interesting to hear all this discussion about the current meta-game. I have only played one game against a temple deck (maybe not as aggressive as the ones you are discussing here), but I found blocking LOS and teleporting was pretty successful against it.
I would like to see a future card that gave temples/conjurations an upkeep cost - like Mordok does for creatures. This would not stop the combo but would give the opponent an opportunity to out play it.
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This is my view on the Hand + temple popopopowah!
All of you who talk about dedicating ressources (actions and mana) to take down this temple forget one thing.
You end up paying almost same mana if not more. And atleast same actions (daze??? stun???). And guess what.... the priestess still get off the tower attack atleast once (per tower) so you are losing momentum!
Hurl boulder is 8 mana (isnt it?).
Tower is 9 mana.
Tower most likely daze on top of a good attack for just ONE more mana than you spend neutralizing tower.
Plus you might not one shot it - you might even miss becayuse of daze or you have to spend extra actions to get rid of daze and ensure a hit.
When that is said:
Its not like that the Hand + Pew pew tower combo loses all its value once you have torn through 2 or 3 towers... Guess what... there is still 3-4 or even more hands that will benefit the owner big time through the rest of the battle.
Remember... the hands ALONE are worth their individual cost. The occasional 9 extra mana for a big chance to daze and decent damage output each round that the opponent can hardly ignore and will on average spend much more ressources to stop than you spent for tower is just very very strong.
But its important to take into the equation, that when the Hand + Tower combo is broken down... only X times 9 mana is wasted because the Hands still works brillaintly on their own.
This is all the while the priestess can equip her staff and do good damage with hands and chance to daze, or if she is swarmed and focused choose armor to negate the damage until she get backup from her temple and gaining advantage taking down creatures while she keeps all her mana spent in the arena.
I have not tried to wall off the tower, but i believe that could be a better solution in some cases.
I want to make a final note on the temple build.
It is one of the builds with most variance due to fact it relies so much on daze and stun and attack rolls that fail from daze.
Some will get lucky getting hit with few dazes and 0 stuns and on top of that they will succed the daze roll when they do those rolls and then claim that temple build is shit.
Others will face non stop dazes only replaced with an occasional stun while their creatures fail all the daze attack rolls.
edit:
typo
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I would think it would be VERY detrimental to "change" cards after they are printed. If you changed it and then reprinted the same card you would have 2 different versions of the same card floating around.
Honestly there is a way around ANY card or combo. So once something exists that "seems" overpowered, really it isn't OP it just means it is something you have to deal with and there is almost always a way to deal with it.
For example if I see a "temple build" combo starting I usually let Hand of Bim go and when the Temple of Light hits I just toss all my resources on that for a turn (or 2 if I have to) and bam the "combo" is no longer a combo and nutrilized. Hurl a boulder at the temple, it gets +2 vs conjurations and there are other attacks like that, or if not running that toss a couple big creatures at it.
So I would DEFINITELY not reprint/change ANY card, There is NO card that is "too good". Just find a way around it or in the next expansion come up with a 'new' card that can be used against it.
I this my point of view on the topic, but in the end it comes down to what is best for the community.
What is best for the community is for AR to not make a knee jerk reaction to a perceived imbalance that doesn't exist at this time. We have had 2 tournaments with 2 completely different builds winning. I would be more concerned if another lord of terror build won and even then I wouldn't be concerned at all. I have seen the "build A" (or card x) is OP thread after "build A" wins a tournament in every single card game I have played. I really hope AR doesn't go down the path of banning and/or nerfing cards, that crap (can I say crap? I really wanted to use stronger language) really ruins games for me.
It should be a law that cards can't be banned or nerfed until at least 3 tournaments have been played. Seriously folks, its way to early in the life of this game to entertain the idea of changing or banning cards. We have a fraction of the data required to make those decisions. I hope that AR never goes down that path, but if they do I would hope that it be based on way more tournament results than two.
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I would think it would be VERY detrimental to "change" cards after they are printed. If you changed it and then reprinted the same card you would have 2 different versions of the same card floating around.
I agree. This is the major problem with errata or balance adjustments in physical games. Once the game is printed, it's generally too late to make changes. It's just a limit of the medium. It's like watercolor. Once it's on the paper, you have to live with it one way or the other.
Honestly there is a way around ANY card or combo. So once something exists that "seems" overpowered, really it isn't OP it just means it is something you have to deal with and there is almost always a way to deal with it.
For example if I see a "temple build" combo starting I usually let Hand of Bim go and when the Temple of Light hits I just toss all my resources on that for a turn (or 2 if I have to) and bam the "combo" is no longer a combo and nutrilized. Hurl a boulder at the temple, it gets +2 vs conjurations and there are other attacks like that, or if not running that toss a couple big creatures at it.
This... this is wrong. Games are not auto-magically balanced. Game balance is difficult and always imperfect. If Temple of Light was always an automatic 3 for 1 in mana and cards it would probably be too good. You're right that there's probably always a tactical way to overcome a temple, but if all of the tactical solutions would have an exceptional strategic cost then the card may still be too powerful.
I mean, surely you agree that it would be possible to print a gamebreakingly bad card? Take the temple of light and start subtracting mana cost and adding stun range and armor and whatever else. Sooner or later the card is too good, right? Eventually?
So I would DEFINITELY not reprint/change ANY card, There is NO card that is "too good". Just find a way around it or in the next expansion come up with a 'new' card that can be used against it.
There are three claims that can be made against nerfing Temple of Light.
1. No card can ever be too powerful. This is obviously wrong. It sounds more like dogma than argument.
2. Temple of light isn't yet shown to be too powerful. I'm happy to give this one more time. No single tournament is the metagame.
3. There are other, better, ways to adjust the metagame.
If something has to be done about Temple of Light or Hand of Bim-Shalla, I do think that there are better options than power level eratta. Tournament ban of problem cards + balanced reprint with name change+ low cost redemption of banned cards + new base set, for example.
Or, as an even better option, a metagame adjustment. Right now, the Priestess has several abilities that don't care about range or line of sight. This was probably supposed to be one of her subthemes. Unfortunately, it may be a bit too powerful. We'll see. If it is, I think this is the area that should have some hate cards printed.
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ANY card and ANY combo has another card or combo or strategy that can counter it or overcome it. EVERY temple build deck I have played against has LOST, even with 4 Hands of Bim and Temple of Light etc I've found ways around it and honestly it wasn't that hard. I considered it more of a speed bump than a detriment, sure it might have cost me a round or two to get rid of the temple but better than letting it hit me every round. It's all about allocating resources.
So yep way to early to nerf ANYthing especially temples which are easily overcome so they can't be that OP.
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I would think it would be VERY detrimental to "change" cards after they are printed. If you changed it and then reprinted the same card you would have 2 different versions of the same card floating around.
Honestly there is a way around ANY card or combo. So once something exists that "seems" overpowered, really it isn't OP it just means it is something you have to deal with and there is almost always a way to deal with it.
For example if I see a "temple build" combo starting I usually let Hand of Bim go and when the Temple of Light hits I just toss all my resources on that for a turn (or 2 if I have to) and bam the "combo" is no longer a combo and nutrilized. Hurl a boulder at the temple, it gets +2 vs conjurations and there are other attacks like that, or if not running that toss a couple big creatures at it.
So I would DEFINITELY not reprint/change ANY card, There is NO card that is "too good". Just find a way around it or in the next expansion come up with a 'new' card that can be used against it.
I this my point of view on the topic, but in the end it comes down to what is best for the community.
What is best for the community is for AR to not make a knee jerk reaction to a perceived imbalance that doesn't exist at this time. We have had 2 tournaments with 2 completely different builds winning. I would be more concerned if another lord of terror build won and even then I wouldn't be concerned at all. I have seen the "build A" (or card x) is OP thread after "build A" wins a tournament in every single card game I have played. I really hope AR doesn't go down the path of banning and/or nerfing cards, that crap (can I say crap? I really wanted to use stronger language) really ruins games for me.
It should be a law that cards can't be banned or nerfed until at least 3 tournaments have been played. Seriously folks, its way to early in the life of this game to entertain the idea of changing or banning cards. We have a fraction of the data required to make those decisions. I hope that AR never goes down that path, but if they do I would hope that it be based on way more tournament results than two.
Very well stated I will make AW aware of this thread so they can see what the community thinks
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It should be a law that cards can't be banned or nerfed until at least 3 tournaments have been played. Seriously folks, its way to early in the life of this game to entertain the idea of changing or banning cards. We have a fraction of the data required to make those decisions. I hope that AR never [has to go] down that path, but if they do I would hope that it be based on way more tournament results than two.
With the one bolded change I made, I also agree with this completely.
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I think intercept will help to deal with this combo nicely.
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Here's the thing people are missing: The card is flatly overpowered. It's overefficent, overflexable and undercosted.
Note that we've had not 2 tournaments, but effectively 6. This card was played heavily accross the weekend. It's simply too damn good.
This isn't about killing combos, or disrupting decks. It's about a single overpowered card that needs to be dealt with.
Now consider the options. The simplist and easiest is obvious: Make the bloody thing Unique.
The reason why this works is two fold: It's very simple to remember and understand because its one word. If you have a player show up for a tournament you don't have to have them recalculate their whole build.
If you change the mana cost, you have to remind yourself constantly what it costs. This is problematic.
If you change the level you run into the same problem, PLUS the added issue of someone walking into a tournament and finding out their deck is illegal.
The hand's power is undeniable. The question is should it be dealt with now or wait to see if it domniates another tournament. It's not easy, nor it should be, to make a change like this.
Here's what I say. Show me an alternative. Not an alternative nerfing or not nerfing or whatever. Show me a deck that can consistantly beat the hand-centric builds.
If there is a deck that can do it, and reliably, then actions don't need to be taken. That's how metagame works.
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Now consider the options. The simplist and easiest is obvious: Make the bloody thing Unique.
Thats been my feeling on it for a while.
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problem with intercept is it won't work once you are stunned.
the main problem with light spells in general is there is no resistance to them (sunblock enchantment). I'm sure they would eventually make resistance to light.
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Here's the thing people are missing: The card is flatly overpowered. It's overefficent, overflexable and undercosted.
Note that we've had not 2 tournaments, but effectively 6. This card was played heavily accross the weekend. It's simply too damn good.
This isn't about killing combos, or disrupting decks. It's about a single overpowered card that needs to be dealt with.
Now consider the options. The simplist and easiest is obvious: Make the bloody thing Unique.
The reason why this works is two fold: It's very simple to remember and understand because its one word. If you have a player show up for a tournament you don't have to have them recalculate their whole build.
If you change the mana cost, you have to remind yourself constantly what it costs. This is problematic.
If you change the level you run into the same problem, PLUS the added issue of someone walking into a tournament and finding out their deck is illegal.
The hand's power is undeniable. The question is should it be dealt with now or wait to see if it domniates another tournament. It's not easy, nor it should be, to make a change like this.
Here's what I say. Show me an alternative. Not an alternative nerfing or not nerfing or whatever. Show me a deck that can consistantly beat the hand-centric builds.
If there is a deck that can do it, and reliably, then actions don't need to be taken. That's how metagame works.
Are you talking about HoBM or ToL? It sounds like you're talking about HoBS.
You are correct I am totally missing how it is overpowered. Would you please spell it out for me.
Thanks in advance.
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Well one thing that hasn't been mentioned because maybe it's a little off topic, is that Hand of Bimshalla is a great money maker for you guys. I mean unless you have some special way of getting extra copies you need to buy a set of cards for each copy of it. So the build with 6 of them in it that won the championship probably came from 2 boxed starter sets + 4 Spell Tome 1s. While I am sure that there are people who are obsessed enough and have the disposable income to buy that many copies of the supplements anyway, it certainly doesn't hurt sales to have such a vital card that supports up to 6 multiples as a one per set card.
I don't mean to impune anything about the motives of Arcane Wonders, because frankly if a company isn't out to make money they aren't doing their job right but, I'd be curious if it directly impacted anyone here's decision to buy another copy or two of Spell Tome 1. Either way the deal you are giving us is still much better then a CCG like Magic in my opinion.
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Lol what am I even reading...
Big X creature builds totally poop on temple builds. I play the Warlock all the time, and let's be real here; if the Warlock player had played Adramelech into a Slayer or two, instead of a wimpy Hellion and Imp for no real reason, it would have easily been GG.
And to suggest that this 14 player tournament, in which many attendees were in fact new players (according to the playtesters themselves), is going to drive people to buy extra core sets JUST to get their hands on the oh-so-overpowered Hand of Bimshalla is so ridiculous it's funny.
Hand of Bim-shalla...the new goyf! Lol, c'mon.
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HoBS is overepowered based on it's versatility alone. If I need offense I can power up my melee. If I can't reach you I can heal myself. Or if I'm simply positioning I can add armor without actually playing armor.
All this for 5 mana. Add this to the fact they power the temple of light, adding offense and control elements.
That is alot more versitility then most builds can hope that fast.
To discount the Origins tournaments as relevant data is wrong. The power of that card was evident against.both new and highly experinced players.
What I am saying is not "did you beat this" saying that you can beat it proves nothing. Tell me HOW you beat it. All I am saying is that in the hands of a competent player the card is too strong.
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you are right red, a 14 player tournament does not define the meta or op cards. I would like to see how the playing of the online simulation of mage wars will have a larger impact. currently there is no practical way for meta to spread from continents apart from people reading forums. the best way to break any card or meta is to increase the pool count and let natural evolution take place.
it is better to fix a broken card in 6 months time then to change a possible op card now before people learn how to counter it. the larger the meta the exponentially faster you fine new op builds and counters to it. the hard part is getting the large enough meta, which right now is tiny (14 players as the largest tournament is microscopic compared to most card games)
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Isn't "the problem" with high competition play-style that it is the extremely specialised, unprepared for combination that wins? (I don't play competitively, but I like to read about it).
Extreme specialization is hard to counter, until you are prepared for it, then you can counter it effectively, though it might require dedicating some resources (assuming a more or less balanced game). The annoying thing is, that its hard (impossible?) to counter every extreme build. There is a danger of ending in a rock-paper-scissor situation where it is just a matter of luck whether your opponents fit the thesis or the anti-thesis (so to speak) to your build.
So, while I admire strong combos to a certain degree, I think over-specialization is a problem.
Currently the Priestess is my favorite, but I would hate a one-trick build. I like the way that I know I can build an unstoppable army, given enough time, but also know that I can be rushed to death and therefore have to try to change to a faster, but also more fallible playstyle. So I worry about something like: What if my enemy is a BM that casts Grizzly in the first turn, moves 2+Bitter Fox in the second, and Wolf+pet+Rouse the Beast in the third? That is 17 attack dice or 20 if Grizzly gets full attack and wolf and BM is in the same position. Having nothing, but temples at this point would be problematic I think.
I don't know how the extreme temple-build plays in detail, but I'm sure there is an answer. I hope strategy will be based on a broad selection of cards.
(and nice comment Wiz-pig, I've had that thought)
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larger comps will stop narrow vision decks because the more players you need to play with a fixed deck the more likely you will hit an deck super effective against yours. then again if you have a tournament with more then 6 rounds you will likely give mages a 20-40 spell point side bar (depending on rounds)
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HoBS is overepowered based on it's versatility alone. If I need offense I can power up my melee. If I can't reach you I can heal myself. Or if I'm simply positioning I can add armor without actually playing armor.
All this for 5 mana. Add this to the fact they power the temple of light, adding offense and control elements.
That is alot more versitility then most builds can hope that fast.
To discount the Origins tournaments as relevant data is wrong. The power of that card was evident against.both new and highly experinced players.
What I am saying is not "did you beat this" saying that you can beat it proves nothing. Tell me HOW you beat it. All I am saying is that in the hands of a competent player the card is too strong.
I don't discount the results of the tourny at origins. My contention is talk of HoBS being OP is premature. Including the tournament(s) at origins there is not enough data to declare anything overpowered.
Some people might argue that Battle Fury is over powered. I wouldn't, but to some a warlock or forcemaster doing 14-18 dice of damage in a single turn is excessive. I've heard priestess players complaining that the Idol of Pestilence is OP.
Months ago, on these forums there was talk of there only being enough time to play two temples before you had to deal with an aggro build being in your face, and that temple builds might be a little underwhelming. Today, one tournament later, the HoBS is so OP it must be nerfed, immediately, or the game will be ruined.
I just think we all need to slow down, play some more tournaments, collect and anylize the data before we make a decision that something is overpowered and needs to be changed.
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I don't think anything needs to be done with EXISTING already IN PRINT cards. IF HoBS is overpowered (and I personally don't think it is) then the better way to handle it rather than NERFING the EXISTING card is make a NEW card that is effective against it in the next expansion.
That does a couple things...
1. Most importantly keeps the integrity of the game in tact (ie everyone has the SAME cards, I don't want to see 2 copies of the same card floating around)
2. Is a potential future money maker for Arcane Wonders (because people will want to buy a NEW card that counters the conjuration).
And didn't they already make cards that counter Temple of Light...walls with LOS blocking,
And didn't they already make cards that counter BOTH Temple and Hand when adding cards with extra damage to conjurations like hurl boulder and whatever that catapult thing is for the Warlord. So if you are looking for reliable strategies to deal with these so called overpowered cards they exist.
I'm not arguing the Hand or the Temple or even the combo is good, they ARE good but seriously people I've played against temple builds and I've never lost to it. I don't see what is so overpowered or "too good" about it?
Put Hurl Boulder in your deck with that many dice in 1 attack AND +2 vs conjurations the temple dies in one hit, so they wasted a turn summoning it you used a turn destroying it I just don't see the big deal.
If you aren't running Hurl Boulder toss a big creature at it and it dies too.
But honestly whenever I've seen hand and hands and temple of light I just kill temple of light (I hate being stunned or damaged). The hand doesn't bug me...giving them 1 extra dice that can easily miss me isn't a big deal, the armor or the healing is nice and all but isn't anything you can't out damage, so I ignore Hand.
So a reliable (has worked for me every time) strategy is destroy temple of light, ignore hand, kill mage, bamn win. I don't care how many hands or temples they put in their deck and even summon quickly they still haven't won.
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hurl bolder does no extra, I think you mean force hammer for +2
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Have you played against a hyper aggressive FM with Bear Strength with 3-4 HoBS out?
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Have you played against a hyper aggressive FM with Bear Strength with 3-4 HoBS out?
Yeah, my simple My turn 2 Adramelech, turn 3 Slayer Bloodreaper gets 12 dice plus good burn chances and much more utility just as quickly, if not more so. There are equivalent builds for most of the mages too.
That's why I just can't take that tournament and temple build seriously. I've beaten it too many times with various big X openings to really buy that it works well. It might work against a sub-par warlock opening but then the whole claim that the Origins tournament was somehow super-competitive is even more questionable.
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It was not super competitive. At all. If I can get a vampiress/intervention book to day 2 it says a lot. Because there were a few good players doesn't make the competition super at all.
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Did I say Origins was super competative? I said it was relevant.
One thing about Hand is it's cheap, very cheap. Even if you go through the trouble of breaking the things they are replaced easily. Add in two more things, the holy spawnpoint and the ToL.
Consider with 3 HoBS and ToL you're throwing out an attack each turn with over a 50% chance to stun. During all this the preistess is blasting away at one target with the temple, beating on another directly, and summoning reinforcements.
Now remember the Preist from conquest, we get to add burns to the mix too. This is not solely about the hand, or temple of light its about the whole kit and what it does. HoBS is simply the easiest thing to tag.
And I'm not sure comparing one stupidly agressive deck against another really proves anything. Even if you can out race the temple build, if most other builds are obliterated by it the point still stands.
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the stun rate of temple will always be 2/12 only the daze increases with X
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The point you are making is that ToL is good, and against better players, it may have some effect, but in the long run, it doesn't. There are just too many ways around it. And as far as Hands go, they are good. So what? They won't win you the game, not even with ToL. And having 4 ToLs in your build because they are just so good doesn't mean I'm going to strike them. You stun me? That's okay, I can still kill you. You daze me? A little trickier, but still not a bad thing overall.
Dependence on other cards instead of the mage is what loses games.
I'm not sure subjectively calling builds "stupidly aggressive" is the way to go about things either.
And how was it relevant? There were 14 players in the main event. If you are saying 14 players will tell you the meta, then I'm going to have to have you look up "relevant" in the dictionary. Sure, it may give you some insight as to what some people play, but the numbers just are not there to indicate what is really good and what is really bad.
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I'll restate my position that I don't think Arcane Wonders needs to react to this too quickly. Only if it becomes a long term problem should they take action. I personally don't feel that HoBS is overpowered. Good, yes, but not overpowered. I've always thought it should be at least spell level 2 (if not 3), but oh well, done is done.
Just because HoBS is showing up in a lot of builds doesn't mean that something needs to be done about it. LOTS of cards show up in most/all builds, like Teleport, Elemental Cloak, Dispel, Battle Fury, etc etc. Just because a card is used a lot doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.
I'm of the opinion that "problems" like this need to fixed via new cards. The Forcemaster vs Warlod expansion went a little way towards creating cards that deal with conjurations, but didn't do a good job of it IMO. Cards like Earthquake fall short of the mark by being far too weak in how much damage it can do to conjurations (should have had an extra die and been critical damage), and cards like Akiro's Hammer are just too slow, too expensive and too fragile themselves.
However, other cards can be made in the future that can help mitigate conjuration effectiveness. I hope they don't go overboard in creating cards that are too good at taking out conjurations, because then conjurations would quickly become liabilities rather than assets.
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However, other cards can be made in the future that can help mitigate conjuration effectiveness. I hope they don't go overboard in creating cards that are too good at taking out conjurations, because then conjurations would quickly become liabilities rather than assets.
I am kinda hoping that we will get a 'Geomancer' at some point.
Could include conjuration spells which act as zone terrain, ice, snow, lava, mud, water, etc. with various effects.
Also attack spells which target conjugations and or creatures, such as fissure, earthquake, tremor, monsoon, etc.
And equipment such as Piledriver, a giant jackhammer which causes damage on all non living conjurations in the arena at upkeep stage. THUMP, THUMP, THUMP, etc.
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The point you are making is that ToL is good, and against better players, it may have some effect, but in the long run, it doesn't. There are just too many ways around it. And as far as Hands go, they are good. So what? They won't win you the game, not even with ToL. And having 4 ToLs in your build because they are just so good doesn't mean I'm going to strike them. You stun me? That's okay, I can still kill you. You daze me? A little trickier, but still not a bad thing overall.
Dependence on other cards instead of the mage is what loses games.
I'm not sure subjectively calling builds "stupidly aggressive" is the way to go about things either.
And how was it relevant? There were 14 players in the main event. If you are saying 14 players will tell you the meta, then I'm going to have to have you look up "relevant" in the dictionary. Sure, it may give you some insight as to what some people play, but the numbers just are not there to indicate what is really good and what is really bad.
QFT. Playtester tells it how it is.
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The point you are making is that ToL is good, and against better players, it may have some effect, but in the long run, it doesn't. There are just too many ways around it. And as far as Hands go, they are good. So what? They won't win you the game, not even with ToL. And having 4 ToLs in your build because they are just so good doesn't mean I'm going to strike them. You stun me? That's okay, I can still kill you. You daze me? A little trickier, but still not a bad thing overall.
Dependence on other cards instead of the mage is what loses games.
I'm not sure subjectively calling builds "stupidly aggressive" is the way to go about things either.
And how was it relevant? There were 14 players in the main event. If you are saying 14 players will tell you the meta, then I'm going to have to have you look up "relevant" in the dictionary. Sure, it may give you some insight as to what some people play, but the numbers just are not there to indicate what is really good and what is really bad.
QFT. Playtester tells it how it is.
Not all playtesters have it stated on their profile, or truly understand the implications of what is trying to be accomplished. There is more going on then a simple card nerf and the fact that this is being discussed in the open forums shows that some people don't really understand the current situation and how it should have been handled.
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See, that statement would be true if the posters concerned about HoBS were saying, "hey, that deck that won the Origins tourney sounds tough, how do I beat it?"
But instead those same posters are actually saying, "Hand OP. Nerf Plox."
And in the context of a very small 14 player tournament, in which playtesters have already said there were a lot of new players, AND in the context that I myself play this game on a daily basis and see results that reflect exactly what the playtesters say (i.e., the people who probably play this game on a similar kind of basis) NOT what OP-criers say, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that there is a "situation" at all.
I don't see it in my gameplay, playtesters (at least the named ones that actually care enough about the game to post regularly) don't see it in their gameplay, so I'm not convinced.
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The point you are making is that ToL is good, and against better players, it may have some effect, but in the long run, it doesn't. There are just too many ways around it. And as far as Hands go, they are good. So what? They won't win you the game, not even with ToL. And having 4 ToLs in your build because they are just so good doesn't mean I'm going to strike them. You stun me? That's okay, I can still kill you. You daze me? A little trickier, but still not a bad thing overall.
Dependence on other cards instead of the mage is what loses games.
I'm not sure subjectively calling builds "stupidly aggressive" is the way to go about things either.
And how was it relevant? There were 14 players in the main event. If you are saying 14 players will tell you the meta, then I'm going to have to have you look up "relevant" in the dictionary. Sure, it may give you some insight as to what some people play, but the numbers just are not there to indicate what is really good and what is really bad.
QFT. Playtester tells it how it is.
Not all playtesters have it stated on their profile, or truly understand the implications of what is trying to be accomplished. There is more going on then a simple card nerf and the fact that this is being discussed in the open forums shows that some people don't really understand the current situation and how it should have been handled.
I think the fact that this is being discussed this much in the open forums is because this is the type of topic that people have strong feelings about, on both sides of the topic. If, after Bashcon, someone had said that a particular card in the Lord of terror was overpowered or broken it would've received the same kind of attention the HoBS is now. After the next tournament when a new card is labeled as 0P it will be in the spotlight receiving the same kind of attention HoBS is now.
This is the kind of topic you see in every customizable card game that has tournaments. Topics like this flourish because people have strong opinions one way or the other, and they will continue to do so as long as this is the case. There really isn't anything wrong with this as long as things don't get too heated or crazy. I personally occasionally weary of these topics because they seem so common. As far as I can remember this is the only topic of its kind in mage wars so it hasn't gotten boring yet.
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I think what he is saying is that the implications HoBS and ToL impose on the growth of new players is hindering to the point of frustration and a sense of defeat. This can be debilitating to a game, especially one so new in it's development. What is interesting is what new players will do with these losses to a so called "oppressive" card. It seems that players that do not have a set strategy that they have read about or tried often find new ways to tackle a problem. This leads to branching strategies, and ultimately a much deeper meta game.
That being said, the hurdle ToL imposes on new players is great, but reachable. I don't think a nerfing is in order at all, as that will hurt the game much more than it would help it.
I don't appreciate the implication of lack of understanding because I have a lack of sympathy for the hurdle this card creates. I think the real problem lies in the lack of strategies given help new players understand the game, rather then throwing them in the fire. Because it is this fire that let's players believe that cards are oppressive and need to be nerfed. In a game such as this where player and playtester feedback is so important, I think giving players the push they need through new strategic content will open more doors in the long run than reconstruction of cards themselves.
And as far as discussing this sort of thing in "open" forums, I think everyone's say is rather important on the matter. Democratic feedback is the only way designers will know what to do without shutting players out. We've seen many bannings/errata of cards in other games history, but why? In recent years, it has been because of this "unfun" factor the card imposes on new players. Mage Wars by mechanics alone implies seeking more than one strategy is available to handle a problem.
As this is a game of very little luck, and very high strategy, there is already a high threshold that players have to reach to become "good" at the game. ToL and Hand raises that threshold, and it scares people away from the game, without deeper thought into why they lost and how they can beat that loss. Take Chess, for example. If Chess was introduced into todays society instead of 400 years ago, there would be many new players who would shout the oppressiveness of the Rook, or the Bishop, or even the Pawn. Why? Because people want to grok the game as soon as they learn it, and Mage Wars does not offer that. It is complex game designed to challenge the mind, not to just reward it. It is what brings so many people into the game. The deep, tactical gameplay. The double thinking as to what opponents are going to plan next. It is what makes ToL just another strategy, and not THE strategy. Simply because it is difficult to beat does not make it oppressive. And because it is a large hinderance to new players does not make it oppressive either, it simply means that we, as a community have to give new players a fighting chance by adding strategy articles, new content, videos of gameplay. It is in this that gives players the step ladder to the hurdle that is ToL/HoBS, not mechanics and rules changes. Let me give you an example. Magic the gathering is a rather popular game. It is also a very difficult game. It used to be that whenever a card would start to see a significant advantage in the meta game, said card would be banned/errata'd. Now, with the advent of the internet, and the popularity of strategy sites like Channelfireball, new players feel empowered instead of overwhelmed. Difficult strategies to beat become a lot easier once you understand how they work, and it is this grokking that new players need, not changes to the game itself, but the way they think about the game.
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Padawan, I applaud all of that.
There is an on line game called Pox Nora that is conceptually very similar to Mage Wars. Outstanding for a long time, then a very active community called for nerfs, buffs, etc etc. Instead of agonising choices over tactics, it degenerated into a changing card landscape every couple of months, with each iteration changing many existing cards. In addition, power creep killed it.
Lets hope that Mage Wars stays special.
A few more videos of play from experienced, technically astute chaps might help new guys like me!
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I apologize Padawan, none of my implications were aimed at you in any way. Though I may not agree with some of your opinions I respect the rights to them.
The strategic choices allowed by mage wars is what drew me towards it in the first place. I love how strategy is a more deciding factor than luck. Something to always be aware of though in any strategy game is anything that completely warps the environment around it. See Magic the Gathering during Caw Blade.
What needs to be done is make sure HoBS does not get to that point. ToL is not the issue, it was merely a convenient tool. Making HoBS unique brings it into alignment for where it should be at in the game enviroment.
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Uniqueness I think makes HoBS kind of unplayable, as it's power level is better with it's numbers. That being said, raising it's spell level to 2 makes it much harder to splash, and drops the play set to 4. As well, raising the cost to a mere 2 mana takes you from being able to cast two a turn from the beginning, which is what is so powerful, to something that you end up paying for in the end. It all comes down to what will still keep the card playable, but not dependable.
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Keep in mind, it can be made Unique for now, and then reprinted with a level/cost increase later without unique.
Most Recent Printing is a wonderful concept.
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Uniqueness I think makes HoBS kind of unplayable, as it's power level is better with it's numbers. That being said, raising it's spell level to 2 makes it much harder to splash, and drops the play set to 4. As well, raising the cost to a mere 2 mana takes you from being able to cast two a turn from the beginning, which is what is so powerful, to something that you end up paying for in the end. It all comes down to what will still keep the card playable, but not dependable.
So you would actually run zero of them if it was unique?
shenanigans!
:P
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Keep in mind, it can be made Unique for now, and then reprinted with a level/cost increase later without unique.
Most Recent Printing is a wonderful concept.
Reprints are already costly. Reprints after the card has already been fixed with a different fix will just confuse players even more, not to mention the costs.
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Ok so if I am understanding the reason for needing to nerf HoBS correctly it seems to me that Battle Fury needs to be nerfed too.
1. It is so good I include it in almost all of my spellbooks. In fact I believe that is true of most players.
2. It was in the first and second place builds at Bashcon. That is 25% of the books that we know of, 50% of the top 4, and it was probably in more.
3. It is so good all the different mages use it, not just the warlord.
4. 14+ dice a turn by a single character is way too much. It totally breaks the damage curve.
5. The most important reason, I don't like it. It doesn't fit well with the style I like to play and it it is very difficult to deal with. I only play it because it's so good there is no reason not to play it.
Does this cover the main reasons for nerfing a card or do I need some more?
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You don't like it is a terrible reason, but it's the main reason people give. Which is sad. 25 percent of the books? That's 2 books. I don't have it an any of my best spellbooks, because it's not as good as people want to believe. If you are going to be attacked by that much, get out of the way. It's that simple, it really is.
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It could have been in 100% of the books at Bashcon for all we know, the top 2 were the only ones posted.
As for the rest I was just being sarcastic. I can't believe that some think HoBS is OP and I was just trying to make a point. Which you helped me with by explaining why you think BF is not OP. Thanks for explaining the other side of the argument.
I am actually quite neutral towards BF. I do think it It is stronger than you give it credit.
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Oh, it is quite strong. It is also quite situational. Dependence on BF is again, a weakness, and not a strength.
Apologies for the lack of note on the sarcasm. It translates well over the internet;D Especially when there are many people who are making the same argument you are, with a serious tone.
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I think it's worth waiting to see how the meta develops. If Hand is in every competitive book I think that's actually an argument NOT to ban it or change it. Its cheap and doesn't distort gameplay too much. It's versatile enough to fit in many different book types. If all lists start with 3x hand... the problem has largely solved itself.
Hand is only a problem if it shows up only a few lists, and those specific lists win much too often.
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Oh, it is quite strong. It is also quite situational. Dependence on BF is again, a weakness, and not a strength.
Apologies for the lack of note on the sarcasm. It translates well over the internet;D Especially when there are many people who are making the same argument you are, with a serious tone.
No apologies necessary. I tried to not go over the top with my sarcasm because I was fishing for a response like yours, an honest defense of BF.
When you phrase your assessment of BF this way I totally agree. I think it is cheap enough to almost warrant an auto include of a singleton copy because its not too difficult to catch someone with it once.
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@Ringkichard
I suppose that is true, but it would make the game pretty boring and limited if everyone was actually using it.
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Just played against my first ToL+HoBS opponent today. Tried to destroy ToL and succeeded after 4 turns - Then he whipped out a new one and killed my mage in turn 5. Not fun at all. Sure I could have played smarter but that build is so unforgiving. If you roll poorly for a couple of rounds you are toast.
It's one thing that it is a powerful combo, but what bothers me is that it requires no skill to pull off. This guy had played for 3 days and had looked through the cards searching for broken cards. Anything that combo's without upper limits is usually a sign of a potentially broken card. ToL fits that category. HoBS is merely the resource fueling the broken card.
Anyway my "vote" is for a nerf of one or both of the offending cards. Making HoBS level 2 sounds about right to me.
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@cosworth
Don't you think you should try a little harder before determining ToL and HoBS are broken? One game doesn't seem like very much evidence to me. Who knows, maybe you win your second game in a rout and decide they aren't strong enough.
Are you following the Stanley Cup? I am, in fact I'm a Blackhawks fan so I'm pretty excited and nervous right now. I guess the Hawks could have declared the Redwings just too good and conceded when they were down 1 game to 3 games in their second round match against Detroit. I mean come on, they were being dominated on the ice and had zero chance to comeback and win the series not to mention the cup, right? Yet here they are one game away from winning their 2nd Stanley Cup in 4 years. It's a good thing they didn't decide that Detroit was too good to be beaten. I'm sure the Bruins aren't planning on mailing in the results of game 6 Monday night.
Ok, now I'm sure it's to soon to give up after one loss to ToL and HoBS.
Go Hawks!
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I played 2 games this weekend as the temple priestess. its not that the temples are op it is that they provide such an easy way for an unskilled player (i put myself in this category) be so dominant. from turn 1 I had 10/12 squares under my control. also for 9+10+5+5 mana you get the equivalent of a free (double strength) pillar of light + spawn point + mana crystal +bear strength/rinohide/regrowth. its just hard to beat that efficiency.
to those people who say temple isn't overpowered you might be right. people who loose to temple just need help on strategies to beat them. so could you post a topic of an anti temple strategy because I am unable to find one. instead of being for or against nerf find somebody on the other side of the isle and ask for there advice/help
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If people are testing Hand and ToL, we should probably be testing them in multiple types of book, too. I've got a Forcemaster list that isn't working right, so I'm probably going to try experimenting with more temples there. I've also got a Beastmaster that has 16 points devoted to ranged attacks (2x Gorgon), which is enough room to sub in temples, I bet.
Rather than make this a thread for complaining, lets do some Science! If you do better than usual with temples, let us know! If you discover secret anti-temple tech, tell me and no one else! Er... no, lets share!
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to those people who say temple isn't overpowered you might be right. people who loose to temple just need help on strategies to beat them. so could you post a topic of an anti temple strategy because I am unable to find one. instead of being for or against nerf find somebody on the other side of the isle and ask for there advice/help
I think this is a fair statement. I think it is a little more difficult than it first appears.
A game of mage wars is very fluid. There is a lot going on at the same time, many factors to consider. Much of the decision making is very situational. This makes it very difficult to say do "X" to beat "Y".
I believe the key to MW is correctly recognizing the state of the game and knowing if you should be advancing your cause or reacting to/ disrupting your opponents. Sounds simple but its not.
Padawanofthegames wrote an article titled the art of mage wars, its worth reading.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12390.0
Here are a couple of quotes from Sun Tzu to give you something to think about that padawan didn't cover in his article.
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
― Sun Tzu, Sun-Tzu: The Art of Warfare
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself,
you will succumb in every battle”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War, Special Edition
“Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
1 He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
2 He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
3 He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.
4 He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
5 He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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If people are testing Hand and ToL, we should probably be testing them in multiple types of book, too. I've got a Forcemaster list that isn't working right, so I'm probably going to try experimenting with more temples there. I've also got a Beastmaster that has 16 points devoted to ranged attacks (2x Gorgon), which is enough room to sub in temples, I bet.
Rather than make this a thread for complaining, lets do some Science! If you do better than usual with temples, let us know! If you discover secret anti-temple tech, tell me and no one else! Er... no, lets share!
Good attitude. Good ideas.
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Damn it Tacullu! Here's to writing a part 2!
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Damn it Tacullu! Here's to writing a part 2!
Best get started then. Lots more to cover.
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I really don't think what I asked is hard to deliver. there are people in this thread saying "tol is such an easy build to counter if you are good" and "tol is such an op card/ play". I'm not saying give the whole 10 round play of the game. but you can suggest "if you sense temples, adjust your plan/books to include X,Y,Z" if it is so easy to counter imply easy solution. on the other hand if tol require a complex plan to defeat then perhaps tweaking is needed.
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toss a wall around the temple or forcehammer it or creature bash it into the ground, it's good yes but hardly broken or unbeatable. I've never lost a game to a temple build and that is even with them having 5 temples out right away. So many ways around them that they don't need any changes or nerfs.
If anything instead of nerfing them add a couple new cards in the next expansion set that would handle them, but with walls and +X to conjuration spells they sort of did that.
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first suggestion I can guess will be including some "intercept" creatures. they will protect your whole zone from ranged attacks (until they get stunned).
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I really don't think what I asked is hard to deliver. there are people in this thread saying "tol is such an easy build to counter if you are good" and "tol is such an op card/ play". I'm not saying give the whole 10 round play of the game. but you can suggest "if you sense temples, adjust your plan/books to include X,Y,Z" if it is so easy to counter imply easy solution. on the other hand if tol require a complex plan to defeat then perhaps tweaking is needed.
This game is not simple. There are a multitude of decisions to make every game. The only easy thing about this game is having fun.
Let's break down this topic into its simplest question without going into the details of the individual choices.
I will give you a multiple choice question and you give me the answer.
Your opponent is employing the ToL and HoBS priestess build and is spending his opening turns playing temples do you:
1. Attack the ToL.
2. Attack the Hands of Bim-Shalla.
3. Attack both.
4. Ignore the temples and focus on the enemy mage.
Without getting into the"how's" which strategy do you employ. Feel free to add an alternative if you have one.
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Against a Priestess Daze/Stun lock strategy, I would try using multiple resilient creatures. A Lord of Fire is vulnerable to Daze/Stun lock, but 3 Dark Pact Slayers aren't going to be nearly as impressed with ToL.
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I don't think Forcehammer is a reliable method to destroy the temple - at best you break even, worse your down mana. I have come up with a few different strategies with Mages I play which I think will be effective, need to test them though and I will post results later.
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@tacullu64 just to be clear I am in the group that doesn't know how to effectively deal with temples so I play with them myself. but after I beat everybody on the weekend with the exact same first 4 move strategy I think next time I will be vsing a few priestest.
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@cosworth
Don't you think you should try a little harder before determining ToL and HoBS are broken? One game doesn't seem like very much evidence to me. Who knows, maybe you win your second game in a rout and decide they aren't strong enough.
Yes more data is needed. I do have all the previous games as a reference though and they suggest that no other build has the same efficiency as this one.
Nitrodavid has a good point. Newbies playing Temple builds consistenly win over other newbies leaving the impression of an unbalanced game. The only thing protecting the games reputation if the lack of HoBS in the core set.
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All this talk about destroying temples... if only we actually had some decent, anti-conjuration, war machines. (Get out of here Akiro's Hammer. I wasn't talking about you.) But seriously.
As of now, the consensus seems to be that attacking enemy conjurations is a poor decision because you are giving up tempo, letting the opponent dictate play, and NOT damaging the enemy mage. Not to mention, not all conjurations go down without a fight; some conjurations, like ToL, can take more than 1 turn to destroy.
I guess you should only attack a conjuration if you really really need to do so. But if you can work around the conjuration instead of wasting time and resources trying to destroy it, more power to you. I know that I always get a little giddy when my opponent attacks my conjurations simply because that means one less attack my mage has to worry about.
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after more review I have 1 point that I think most players will think is valid for nerfing temple of light.
tough -2 is intended to reduce the chance of effect. ie for pillar of light daze 4-10 stun 11+ stun. with a -2 tough you can't ever be stunned by this I assume this is the intention.
the problem with tol is they wanted stun to be constant regardless of the number of temples. (9-10 stun, 11+ daze). this means that any tough -2 will not effect the stun chance (only daze). making the colossus belt useless in avoiding stuns.
with some cleaver rewording or redescribing they can fix this "glitch" in the game mechanic.
I did the maths and if you change the effect values to
11+ stun, x-10 daze ( x = 9 - temples).
this way the effect will have same odds as before but toughness will conform to the rest of the of the game
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after more review I have 1 point that I think most players will think is valid for nerfing temple of light.
tough -2 is intended to reduce the chance of effect. ie for pillar of light daze 4-10 stun 11+ stun. with a -2 tough you can't ever be stunned by this I assume this is the intention.
the problem with tol is they wanted stun to be constant regardless of the number of temples. (9-10 stun, 11+ daze). this means that any tough -2 will not effect the stun chance (only daze). making the colossus belt useless in avoiding stuns.
with some cleaver rewording or redescribing they can fix this "glitch" in the game mechanic.
I did the maths and if you change the effect values to
11+ stun, x-10 daze ( x = 9 - temples).
this way the effect will have same odds as before but toughness will conform to the rest of the of the game
You bring up a good point. Hadn't thought of that.
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Hmm that is rather crappy that toughness is useless against the TOL.
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the problem with tol is they wanted stun to be constant regardless of the number of temples. (9-10 stun, 11+ daze). this means that any tough -2 will not effect the stun chance (only daze). making the colossus belt useless in avoiding stuns.
I don't get it. ToL rolls d12+X for effect where X= number of temples in play. Colossus belt subtracts 2 from that. How does that make the belt useless?
edit: OK I see the static target of 9-10 is equally likely regardless of the belt until the point where 9-12 temples are in play. From then on the belt actually helps the ToL to stun.
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It's not useless against ToL, it just makes Daze 1/6th less likely without affecting the Stun chance, but Stun is much stronger than Daze. Weaker against ToL than against other attacks that give conditions certainly, but not completely useless.
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Drop the Sniper 3 zones from ToL, guard him, buff him (Hawkeye/Sniper Shot) and blast away. Need a Ranged Battle Fury....
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Need a Ranged Battle Fury....
That would be sweet. I would be surprised if they never came out with one. 8)
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Imagine that on a Helm of Command on a Sniper Buffed with Hawkeye sitting in a Archers Watch Tower zone. Give him the Release Volley Battle Order and hit him with "Flurry of Shots" on the Helm ;) what is that now
9 Dice the first time and 8 Dice the second time. As an opponent, would hate to be Flying in the same zone or one zone away...
Assuming that it works like Battle Fury and there are two Attack Actions....
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Need a Ranged Battle Fury....
Yuk... Gorgon Archers generate enough weak tokens just shooting once per round.
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Yuk... Gorgon Archers generate enough weak tokens just shooting once per round.
They are nasty little beasties aren't they...
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How do we go from "WE need to nerf Battle fury", to "doodes, ranged Battle Fury sounds awesome". I think this is a perfect example to demonstrate that we need to learn much, much more about the game before we can offer proper reasoning as to why cards should be nerfed.
As to "One newbie always beats another if said newbie uses ToL/HoBs". The same can be said of the Necropian Vampiress/ Divine Intervention combo. It turn 5s newbies with newbies playing it! Does it need to be nerfed? No, because as soon as you learn that you CAN out tempo it, you become a better player because of it, and guess what else? You start constantly beating that particular build. So, is the fix just nerfing a card? Not without a considerable amount of data that significantly skews the build in the "winning" column, and so far, I have not seen it. Just like NV/DI, ToL takes a knowledge to beat, and once you understand the thinking behind it, the how it works, you can understand the counter measures you should include to beating the Temple build.
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That was just me on the BF is OP, and I was making a point.
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has it already been pointed out that battle fury only works on melee attacks, not ranged ones.
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There are many more people that think it is OP as well...
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There are many more people that think it is OP as well...
If anything I consider ToL more OP than Battle Fury. Then again, arguments over which cards are and aren't OP seem like a waste of time to me. Even if a card in MW is OP everybody can still include said OP card in their spellbook.
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Many people think BF is OP? Never heard much complaint about BF to be honest. Powerful card, but predictable.
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Yeah, at least with newer players I've spoken with (just like ToL), people think the card is too powerful, especially when paired with pump effects.
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Here are a couple of links from previous priestess threads. Kinda interesting in the context of this thread.
From March of this year.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=9540.0
From May of this year.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12237.0
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So Origins 2013 is over. At least 2/3 of the Tournament of Champions builds ran large numbers of Hands of Bimshalla plus Temple of Light, and the undefeated winning build (Steve Walters priestess) used 6x Hand and 3x Temple.
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So here's what is interesting about a Temple Build. The Hand of Bimshalla is only mildly overpowered by itself. The temple of light is worthless without Hands (you'll never get enough Dawnbreakers to buff it). However, the combo of Hand plus ToL proved to be absolutely over the top overpowered.
I am of the opinion that Mage Wars needs more strong combos, not less. However, Hand+ToL is not the right model to base them on, for the following reasons:
- Hand and Temple are both quick spells. You can have 3 hands + ToL and roll a 4 dice ranged attack on Round 2. This is far too fast of a combo, compared to how long it takes to get creatures or equipment out.
- Hand and Temple do not reward an opponent for trying to interrupt the combo. At 5 mana and level 1, it is easy to replace destroyed Hands. Temple is even worse. If your Temple attacks, then dies, recasting ToL lets you get a 2nd temple attack off on the same round! Ironically, killing the temple actually INCREASES its damage output.
However, I am all for combo cards being stronger. They just need limitations. Any combination of the following will work:
1) requires time (every-upkeep-phase effects)
2) requires map control (must control X outposts, Y zone exclusives, etc)
3) requires specific creatures (all soldiers gain X. Requires an Angel, a Knight, and 2 Clerics)
4) requires another card type (effect multiplied by number of temples, of walls, of mana Conjurations, etc.)
5) requires specific "combo points"
Some hypothetical examples:
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(1, 3) Mithril forge - generates Blade tokens each round and after X tokens gives a +Piercing or + melee bonus to Soldiers.
(2,3,4) Temple of Protection - Any time an attack is declared against a friendly creature within 0-2 range and LoS, you may pay 2 mana to use Temple of Protection as a defense. (d12+X) 10+, where X = number of Clerics you control.
(1,2,3) Idol of Desecration - Every upkeep phase, gain a Desecration token for every zone that contains a Demon creature you control. When a friendly Demon creature enters play, you may spend 9 Desecration tokens to teleport him into a zone with any other Demon creature you control, and activate his action marker.
(1,5) Hive - Generates an Insect token every round.
Thousand Stings - Attack spell. You must pay 2 Insect tokens as part of the casting cost. High damage zone Poison attack.
Insect Swarm - Enchantment. You must pay 3 Insect tokens as part of the reveal cost. Inflicts Poison damage every round. When target creature is destroyed, you may immediately cast and reveal Insect Swarm for no cost on any other creature in the same zone.
Hive Queen - Creature. Unique. You must pay 6 Insect tokens as part of the casting cost, but this creature does not cost mana. Generates Insect tokens every round.
(1,4) Quickened Mind - Enchant. During the Upkeep phase, gain a Thought token for each Psychic card you control. Gain a Thought token every time you cast a Psychic incantation. Maximum 6 Thought tokens. Immediately after any of your action phases, you may spend 6 Thought tokens to reset your Quick Cast marker.
(3,4) Entrench - Incantation. Until the end of the round, all your Soldier creatures gain Aegis X while Guarding, where X = the number of Walls you control.
(3,4) Malediction - Incantation, targets enemy creature. Performs an X dice Poison zone attack centered around target creature, where X is the total number of revealed Curse enchantments on the creature.
(2,4) Rain Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud, all Corporeal objects in this zone, or corporeal Walls bordering this zone, gain Flame -2 and Acid -2
Thunder Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud. Every upkeep performs a 2 dice Lightning zone attack with Flying +1
Smoke Cloud - Conjuration, Cloud. Blocks Line of Sight to or from all objects within this zone. Does not affect walls bordering this zone.
Hurricane - Unique Conjuration, Cloud. Every upkeep phase, pay 3 upkeep to perform an X dice Wind zone attack (-3 vs Clouds) against every zone containing a friendly Cloud, where X = total number of Clouds you control.
Run 3 of the cheapest wall and box the damn thing in. It's epic so he can't put more down, so wall it away. It's a mana eat, but that cannon is then DOA and to put that much into the set up the opposing Mage is going to like be hindered. Put a creature on the Hands and let TOL waste attacks
It is called Perfectly Unbslanced, when lots of peeps run TOL then everyone will counter for it, and it will be rofl stomped. Gurantee next decent tournament every serious player will prep for that build, and be ready to counter it. With snipers, walls, +conjuration damage items. And maybe a hydra to triple strike it. Or gorgon archer to lock down the enemy Mage while you focus on the hand of Bims
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"serious players" a large part of this thread talking about how beginners use it because it is hard to counter. its OK I get it now that we wont see a counter till after next big comp because people want to keep builds close to their chest.
btw cheapest walls won't last long against the temple. it's attack has ethereal so it can take down fog in 1 and flame in 2 turns (remember its a free attack so of course it will hit the wall). the larger HP walls will last 2-3 turns and if they pick the best wall (usually the middle) they gain all Los back and consider how much you paid to get an extendable walk out.
now if there was a light wall (with light immune and only attacks nonliving creatures)
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"serious players" a large part of this thread talking about how beginners use it because it is hard to counter. its OK I get it now that we wont see a counter till after next big comp because people want to keep builds close to their chest.
btw cheapest walls won't last long against the temple. it's attack has ethereal so it can take down fog in 1 and flame in 2 turns (remember its a free attack so of course it will hit the wall). the larger HP walls will last 2-3 turns and if they pick the best wall (usually the middle) they gain all Los back and consider how much you paid to get an extendable walk out.
now if there was a light wall (with light immune and only attacks nonliving creatures)
Yea, 2 to 4 turns to either put the Mage on the defensive and gain tempo (that thing all the arena junkie elitists love to talk about). You really fail to see the point, so what if one wall dies (a) the cannon has to shoot around 2 others, and (b) that's enough time to go after the other Mage and dump a creature in place to roflstomp the TOL and/or tag team the enemy Mage so if he ignores creatures and focuses the Mage, the creatures can keep the tempo up.
Lastly, id rather demolish the support temples, and drop my spawn point and let the extra mana power up my advantage in tempo.
This is the point of a well rounded spell book.
And I believe, as I have said before that these things evolve, and quite a few newbies have asked how to counter this phenomenon.
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I would hesitate before calling other people "newbies". Your answer to Temple was boxing it in. Telling Nitro that he fails to see why you would waste three actions boxing something in, and then giving faulty reasoning isn't the way to go about things either.
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Tempo is a term used to indicate the advantage gained when a player is able to play more or stronger cards in a shorter period of time due to efficient resource allocation.It is sometimes defined as the means by which a player gains additional options or decreases the options possessed by the opponent by means not directly pertaining to respective numbers of playable cards.
Some forms of tempo are
Mana Acceleration -Players generally develop their mana at a set rate ; accelerants allow players to speed up this process and have quicker access to more mana. This may come in the form of additional channeling cards put into play, and other cards that remain in play and generate mana (ie. Most spawn points and Familiars.) , or cards that generate a one-time boost in mana (Currently none in print).
Mana Drain - Conversely, mana denial cards cause opponents to lose tempo by setting back their mana development and thus limiting their options. Examples of mana denial cards Mordok's Obelisk, and Suppression Orb.
Efficiency - Some cards have stronger effects than other cards costing the same amount of mana. For example, Gray Angel and Guardian Angel despite costing the same amount of mana, the gray angel is overall a less useful creature. Playing efficient cards can generate tempo if they render an opponent's weaker cards irrelevant or substandard, restricting the options available to that player.
Extra Actions - A few cards, such as spawn points, and familiars actually allow a player to take additional actions. This generates tempo in many ways, usually by granting the ability to play extra creatures or cast extras spells, or attack.
Punishment - In some situations, it is possible to counteract tempo generated by the opponent. This generates tempo if it makes the opponent's expenditures useless and therefore inefficient. For example, a player may pay a large amount of mana to attach a powerful enchantment card to a creature or object. If that player's opponent responds by destroying the creature or object with an attack, the player who paid the enchant cost will have wasted the mana and lost tempo.
The temple build gains tempo form the free attack it makes each round and the fact it is a perceived threat. Thus most player will commit manna, creatures and actions to destroying the temples. The main problem is the is the expected response so you have played into the other players plan.
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I am just sceptical of the suggestion of spending 3 actions (or 2 for 1-2 extra mana) which is already 1 turn to avoid the temple from targeting you for 1-3 turns. so you have lost 15-23 mana to gain those turns. since the tol only cost her 9 mana it comes off as a good trade for the priest.
additionally the tower has range of 0-2 so each single wall will only defend the 2 squares directly behind it. throwing the walls to the side are a waste unless you plan to stay in those squares.
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I did the maths (probability function with armour is tedious)
an attack like hurl bolder (7d,0p)
has a 23% chance to destroy tol in 1 turn. if it is on 4 HP it has 77% chance.
now a creature like steel claw (7d,1p)
for full and half health it has 27 and 85% respectively.
now a high penetration creature like slayer (4d,2p) gives 0.6% and 50% (full, half)
the same creature with +2 attack (6d,2p) gives 17% and 83%
without listing every combination I can tell you the trend if you want to have a 1 in 5 chance to 1 hit KO use the bolder. if you want to kill it in 2 or more turns get a creature or weapon with 2 or more piercing.
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I did the maths (probability function with armour is tedious)
an attack like hurl bolder (7d,0p)
has a 23% chance to destroy tol in 1 turn. if it is on 4 HP it has 77% chance.
now a creature like steel claw (7d,1p)
for full and half health it has 27 and 85% respectively.
now a high penetration creature like slayer (4d,2p) gives 0.6% and 50% (full, half)
the same creature with +2 attack (6d,2p) gives 17% and 83%
without listing every combination I can tell you the trend if you want to have a 1 in 5 chance to 1 hit KO use the bolder. if you want to kill it in 2 or more turns get a creature or weapon with 2 or more piercing.
This is the kind of analysis I like to see. I think Slayer is the best creature for the job, 2 of those lads can stomp conjurations and have great general health and damage.
Although hurl bolder is the most effective for a one shot, I just don't like the risk of it failing and being in a mana hole.
Sorry to ask but you seem to have the spreadsheets set up, would fireball with its burn chance be more or less effective than hurl boulder? Although it might not destroy in one turn it may be more effective in the long run due to continued damage?
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fire ball (6d,0p,4b1,11b2)
gives 22% and 76% (full half)
with ring (7d,0p,3b1,10b2)
gives 37% and 87%
you beat me to it I was adding the burn calculator today
note this only counts the burn damage for 1 turn. I didn't have the time to add geometric progression calculator. but from my battle simulator I can tell you that each burn will have a eventual value of 3 damage I didn't include that because this was just 1 hit percentages not average damage
***EDIT: changed correction, average burn damage is 3 not 1.75
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fire ball (6d,0p,4b1,11b2)
gives 22% and 76% (full half)
with ring (7d,0p,3b1,10b2)
gives 37% and 87%
you beat me to it I was adding the burn calculator today
note this only counts the burn damage for 1 turn. I didn't have the time to add geometric progression calculator. but from my battle simulator I can tell you that each burn will have a eventual value of 1.75 damage I didn't include that because this was just 1 hit percentages not average damage
Cheers for that information. Ring provides a considerable boost and gives you a sustained benefit (whip or more fireballs later) which is interesting.
Just so I interpret right, each potential burn a card can do on average adds 1.75 damage?
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sorry it's 3, i edited the previous post (i have so many sheets i sometime open the wrong revision), additionally i was not using that burn AVERAGE value in the % values i gave in those posts.
if you interested it uses the Infinite geometric series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression)
your burn will average a damage of 1 for a turn (0,1,2 average to 1).
and the chance that it will still be able to role on the next turn is 2/3 (ie not a 0)
which comes to Sum = 1/(1-2/3) = 3