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Messages - Arkdeniz

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226
Spellbook Design and Construction / Re: Ghoulish Force Constructs Opening
« on: December 05, 2017, 06:27:57 PM »
All my instincts tell me this shouldn't work (what sort of body is left behind from a dissipated Force creature that a Ghoul could eat?), but I can't see anything in the rules that says no.

So, very nice move!

I agree with Farkas - get a second ghoul going so that they could both enjoy force gremlin snacks and then work as a team thereafter.

227
Spellbook Design and Construction / iSuck Wizard 1.0
« on: December 05, 2017, 04:16:26 AM »
So here is an older model I have pulled out from my shelf recently. Scraped home with it against a beasty in a long game.

It is a basic version of a classic mana denial, outlast-the-enemy wizard. Heavy on the mana worms and essence drains. Keep the enemy powerless then go for the kill with lightning is the general plan.

It is clearly not updated in 12 months or more. Only sign of it being post-Grimoire is Mordok's Tome, but this I think was an impulse tinker rather than a deliberate reassessment.

Any advice on changes I should make based on the last few expansions/changes in play?

[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]iSuck 1.0 (Air)[/spellbookname]
[mage]A Wizard (Air) Spellbook[/mage]
[mage]built by http://www.spellbookbuilder.com[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1Q01]2 x Arcane Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=awl7]1 x Leather Belt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01Q04]1 x Leather Chausses[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q16]1 x Leather Gloves[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q17]1 x Lightning Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q19]1 x Mage Wand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ10]1 x Meditation Amulet[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q22]1 x Moonglow Amulet[/mwcard]
[mwcard=lg4]1 x Mordok's Tome[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01Q06]1 x Repulsion Cloak[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01Q07]1 x Rod of the Arcanum[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01Q11]1 x Sistarran Robes[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q32]1 x Suppression Cloak[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjuration[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKJ01]1 x Enchanter's Wardstone[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J07]1 x Gate to Voltari[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J12]2 x Mana Crystal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J14]1 x Mana Siphon[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Creature[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKC08]1 x Gargoyle Sentry[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1C24]3 x Mana Leech[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01C07]3 x Mana Worm[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWAPRC07]1 x Meditating Monk[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1E02]1 x Block[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E06]1 x Circle of Lightning[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E07]1 x Cobra Reflexes[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E10]1 x Decoy[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E15]4 x Essence Drain[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE04]1 x Force Crush[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E20]1 x Harmonize[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E21]1 x Hawkeye[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01E09]1 x Hoodwink[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E30]2 x Pacify[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E35]1 x Reverse Magic[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWAWLE06]1 x Sanguine Thirst[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Incantation[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1I06]2 x Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I07]1 x Dissolve[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I09]1 x Drain Power[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I12]1 x Force Push[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I15]1 x Knockdown[/mwcard]
[mwcard=pvs_incantations1]2 x Lesser Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I17]2 x Minor Heal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I20]1 x Purify[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I24]2 x Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I25]1 x Shift Enchantment[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I28]2 x Teleport[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Attack[/spellclass]
[mwcard=DNA01]2 x Acid Ball[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01A02]2 x Forked Lightning[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1A09]2 x Jet Stream[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1A07]3 x Lightning Bolt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01A04]1 x Piercing Thunderstrike[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: 120 pts[/cost]
[/spellbook]

228
Spellbook Design and Construction / Re: Jokhari Beastmaster Buddy build
« on: November 30, 2017, 12:51:53 AM »
- You should try Hunting spear. Then, decide what you want. But try. It is not only good, it is superfun to use, running and shooting all the way. It does not work against some mages, but it is also good in the dissolve game.  Of course, it works best with battleforge. The play is beautiful: deploy HS from the BF, move and attack, delivering the spear to your book, and leave your rival wondering if he should get a dissolve or not for next turn. Then, on the next turn, play mind games with him and take a Hurl rock or a bow, or the spear again...

I like this a lot. I'll have to give it a go. I've always kept the spear in hand rather than return it, but the combo with BF is a nice one indeed.

229
Rules Discussion / Re: When do you gain slow for the Swamp?
« on: November 17, 2017, 07:25:06 PM »
Ah, those answers make sense. I should have played it out on a board a bit before I asked. Thanks DaveW and Coshade!

230
Rules Discussion / Re: When do you gain slow for the Swamp?
« on: November 17, 2017, 02:40:03 PM »
Is there any difference between the Swamp's application of the Slow trait upon entering and the Steep Hill's "Non-flying creatures require a full action to move into this zone"?

Am I reading it right that both wordings simply mean that a creature entering the zone will be unable to do anything else on arrival, but they will be able to act freely while in the Swamp/on the Hill (with the caveat about the Swamp's unmovable and non-elusive) and can move out of the zone with no ill-effects?

231
Spellbook Design and Construction / Grab and Hold Wizard
« on: November 14, 2017, 03:20:46 PM »
This is a build for multiplayer domination I've been playing around with.

[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]Grab and Hold Wizard[/spellbookname]
[mage]A Wizard (Air) Spellbook[/mage]
[mage]built by http://www.spellbookbuilder.com[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1Q01]1 x Arcane Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ05]1 x Dispel Wand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q09]1 x Enchanter's Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=awl7]1 x Leather Belt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q18]1 x Mage Staff[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q19]1 x Mage Wand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q33]1 x Wind Wyvern Hide[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjuration[/spellclass]
[mwcard=pvs_conjurations2]1 x Consecrated Ground[/mwcard]
[mwcard=pvs_conjurations9]1 x Steep Hill[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1J03]1 x V'Torrak Gate[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1W02]1 x Wall of Stone[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Creature[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKC08]1 x Gargoyle Sentry[/mwcard]
[mwcard=awl11]6 x Goblin Legionnaire[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01C05]3 x Jade Gremlin[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC10]1 x Ludwig Boltstorm[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1C06]2 x Usslak, Greater Orb Guardian[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWA01E02]1 x Arcane Ward[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E14]1 x Enfeeble[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E15]1 x Essence Drain[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01E06]1 x Exile[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE05]1 x Fumble[/mwcard]
[mwcard=afm20]1 x Galvanize[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01E08]2 x Giant Size[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01E12]2 x Minor Essence Drain[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E29]2 x Nullify[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01E14]2 x Shrink[/mwcard]
[mwcard=lg10]1 x Summoning Circle[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E38]1 x Teleport Trap[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1E04]1 x V'Tar Force Sentry[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Incantation[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1I01]1 x Banish[/mwcard]
[mwcard=lg11]1 x Clear Mind[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI06]1 x Defend[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I06]2 x Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I07]1 x Dissolve[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I12]1 x Force Push[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI04]1 x Force Wave[/mwcard]
[mwcard=pvs_incantations1]1 x Lesser Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01I04]2 x Mend[/mwcard]
[mwcard=pvs_incantations4]1 x Overextend[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I23]1 x Rouse the Beast[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I24]1 x Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I25]1 x Shift Enchantment[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I28]1 x Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1I03]1 x V'Tar Suppression[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Attack[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1A02]1 x Chain Lightning[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1A04]1 x Sandstorm[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1A05]1 x V'Tarrian Energy Wave[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01A05]1 x Voltaic Discharge[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1A06]1 x Windstorm[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: 120 pts[/cost]
[/spellbook]

It is designed to have one orb by the end of turn 2, with plenty of mana in the bank and defences ready to be thrown up. The idea is to get a jump start on the opponents and, through taking and holding other orb zones while hampering the opponents, keeping that lead. It is really intended for games that go to around 11 VP and take about 8 turns.

Turn 1:
Lesser teleport (preferably next to an Usslak with 2 orbs, but a Sslak with 1 will do)
Ludwig Boltstorm

Turn 2:
Boltstorm triplestrikes the defending Usslak/Sslak.
(Wizard QC Overextend if defender is not dead)
Wizard moves and touches orb.

Turn 3 (option1)
Usslak
Boltstorm moves into square and touches any second orb
(QC) Steep Hill

turn 3 (option2 - if one or more opponent is nearly through a defending Sslak)
Giant Size a Sslak (x2 if both opponents are close)
Usslak

From there it is a combination of sending Usslaks through Summoning circles/gates to other Vtar orbs, fumbling, teleporting enemies, exiles/banishes getting in their way with easily defendable Jade Gremlins and so on.
The Goblin Legionnaires are there for a quick boost to action numbers (cast on turns before you have the initiative).

A work in progress, but I think it has potential. It probably needs an additional Usslak and another wall.

EDIT: I need to point out that in my local group Galaxxus is forbidden since not all of us have the Domination set, and we don't want to have that big of an advantage over those that don't.

232
Rules Discussion / Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: November 14, 2017, 02:03:55 PM »
You're welcome.

233
Rules Discussion / Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: November 14, 2017, 12:57:47 AM »
Is your argument really that zones extend infitesimally without ever touching the border? And you think this is not only sensible, but somehow functional? Cause I don’t see it. I think you need to get out of the theoretical and look at the board. Zones have an edge. It’s not theoretical, it’s marked with lines. Those lines are the zone borders. If you reach one, you’ve reached the other. Postulating that another secret invisible edge exists that has just never been mentioned before is really sounding like a conspiracy theory.

If we want to start talking down theory and suggest we start looking at the physical board I would have to say that the concept of the zone border being a one dimensional line is also non-sensical.

You can see the mark on the board. Therefore it has two dimensions. A two-dimensional object by definition has two edges on either side. If you reach one edge you have to cross a little bit of space to get to the other. So there is 'something', on the board, between two adjacent zones. Whether that 'something' is a Zone Border could be argued, but it is there.
   

234
Rules Discussion / Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: November 14, 2017, 12:47:49 AM »
On the one hand we know that flying creatures have their line of sight blocked by it, but not by walls. So it is clearly higher than a wall.

You still see flying creatures behind steep hill.

A flying creature has line of sight to all creatures and all creatures have line of sight to a flying creature.

Only obscured breaks what i just said.

edit:
And obscured doesnt really break it. It just does so you cannot target it 2 or more zones away, you actually still have line of sight to the object.

Ah.

I was focussed on the rulebook's section on Walls and LoS that I neglected to read the final sentence of the section on Flying.

So I guess the answer to my initial question is that the Hill is lower than a Wall (small hill, then!) This would also explain why a Wall on the other side of a Hill can be targeted by ranged attacks and spells.

I am still not convinced that you should be able to see the ground immediately on the dead side of the hill in order to cast a Wall. That just seems silly to me.

But I guess I have played games with silly rules before. 

235
Spells / Re: strategist helm and negative combos
« on: November 13, 2017, 01:09:42 AM »
Also consider the impact on the Gate to Voltari. "3 mana for my spawnpoint? Thanks very much," says the wizard.

236
Rules Discussion / Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: November 12, 2017, 02:47:31 PM »
Since we are talking about Steep Hills, I have a second question.

How high is a Steep Hill?

On the one hand we know that flying creatures have their line of sight blocked by it, but not by walls. So it is clearly higher than a wall.

But on the other hand we also know that it does not provide the Indirect trait, so standing on it does not let a ground creature see over an adjacent wall. So it is clearly lower than a wall.

I know that the magic-infused mage wars arena is a place where physics often seems to work differently to the real world, but just how high is the Steep Hill?

237
Rules Discussion / Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: November 11, 2017, 07:46:57 PM »
Quote from: DaveW
I am referencing Hagen’s quote of the rule change on walls ... “and the zone border in LoS when you cast the wall spell" ... and I am suggesting that the zone border on the far side of the zone is not in LOS by the wording on the Steep Hill spell card. The zone border is not part of the zone... even the farthest reaches of the zone.

That is ... it passes through two sides of the zone before reaching the zone border. The side of the zone is the farthest point within the zone, just before the zone stops existing and the zone border is reached. At least that is my interpretation of the terms zone border and side of the zone.

I like this idea. More elegantly put than my earlier screed.

238
Rules Discussion / Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: November 11, 2017, 03:51:13 PM »
I have seen on these forums that it is dangerous to go against Zuberi in a rules argument, but because I am still grumpy that my newly-summoned phalanx of goblin legionnaires was shredded by a wall of pikes + force wave combo last night, here goes.

Quote from: Zuberi
A normal wall doesn't block line of sight to itself. I think we can all agree on that. Thus, it doesn't block line of sight TO the zone border that it occupies. It just blocks any attempts to trace line of sight ACROSS the zone border it occupies.

Agreed.

Quote from: Zuberi
Similarly, a Steep Hill doesn't block line of sight TO the second border of the zone it sits in. It only blocks line of sight ACROSS the second border. Ergo, you can target a wall on the opposite side of a steep hill.

This is where we differ. Let me start off by reflecting your first paragraph to indicate what I think is going on, and then I'll try to explain why.

A Steep Hill doesn't block line of sight to itself. I think we can all agree on that. Thus, it doesn't block line of sight TO the zone that it occupies. It just blocks any attempts to trace line of sight ACROSS the zone it occupies.

The key is the language used on the Steep Hill card: "LoS which passes through two sides of this zone is blocked."

Various posts on this thread, including Zuberi's, have equated 'sides' here to mean 'zone borders'. I don't think it does. Arcane Wonders has been in this business for a long time, and I give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the language they use. If they meant 'side' to mean 'zone border', they would surely have written 'zone border.' They must have been thinking of a different concept with 'side'. (In passing, I note that the codex definition for Zone Border does not use the word 'side' anywhere.)

I would argue that the intent is to differentiate the Hill's effect from the rulebook's section on Line of Sight, which is explicitly and only discussing LoS as it relates to walls and zone borders, and is silent on LoS as it relates to conjurations inside a zone.

I'd like to see an official ruling, but before such a thing shows up, I present my theory:

The Steep Hill's wording introduces a second meaning for line of sight, one that is used in wargaming - a virtual line between the active creature and its target, where 'Zone borders' are not a relevant consideration but the 'sides' of the zone are.

With the Steep Hill what we have is some terrain that sits above the 'floor level' of the arena. Functionally it is like a building in a war game, one that effectively has the same ground dimensions as the zone it sits in. If you're standing in front of the 'SH building' you can only see and target its front wall and what is on its roof. if the line of sight passes through the 'SH building' you can't see through it to what is beyond, and you can't see or target its three far side walls (which would be the zone borders, so you couldn't build a wall on them).

A tidier way of putting it on the card might have been "LoS that passes beyond the centre of this zone is blocked."

As I say, that's my view. I appreciate that there are others and would love a ruling on it.       


239
Rules Discussion / Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: November 11, 2017, 07:49:32 AM »
When targeting a zone border, one of the two zones adjacent to the border must be within range of the spell, and the border itself needs to be in Line of Sight. So, it doesn't matter that you have Line of Sight to the zone containing the Steep Hill, what matters is if you have Line of Sight to the zone border. Line of Sight and Range are checked separately. Hagen is completely right on this.

So, Steep Hill blocks Line of Sight if it passes through two "sides" of the zone, meaning the question is whether or not it passes through a second "side" of the zone before reaching the Zone Border. Now, the "side" of a zone isn't a game term, so we just have to trust common English a bit with this, but I think it's fairly clear that the "side" of the zone is synonymous with Zone Border. They are in actuality the same thing.

This would mean that when you trace Line of Sight, you are getting to and touching the second side of the zone, BUT you are not passing through it. So you would be able to target any of the zone borders adjacent to the Steep Hill. Which are, as iNano and exid pointed out, vulnerable to range 2 attacks in the example setup, like those from Akiro's Hammer, because again Range and Line of Sight are checked separately.

Edit: Just to remind people of the rules, for those saying that two of the borders would be visible but the far one wouldn't be, Line of Sight is traced from the center of the zone to the center of the zone border. So all three questioned borders are identical in the presented problem, with Line of Sight having to first pass through one border and then touch the middle of the border in question. Whatever answer applies to one, applies to all three. You can't skew the origin or the destination to try and circumvent obstacles.

Apologies for raising this thread from the dead, but this situation came up in a game tonight, and we fell to arguing.

The result we came up with opposes Zuberi's reasoning here.

The problem is that the rules for LoS as written have not taken into account any possibility that something other than a wall can block LoS:

"Some walls block LoS. You cannot cast a spell or make a ranged attack through a wall that blocks LoS. . . Draw an imaginary straight line from the centre of the attacker's or caster's zone to the centre of the target's zone. LoS is blocked if the line crosses through a zone border that has a wall on it with the blocks LoS trait. . . When drawing LoS to a wall, draw it to the centre of the zone border."

That's what we've got to go on.

The Steep Hill is a different beast. It sits within the zone, not on a zone border the way a wall does. It says:

"LoS that passes through two sides of this zone is blocked."

The language on the Steep Hill card is loose and imprecise. However, it is clear that because Steep Hill sits within the zone and not on its border it does something different to a wall and the rules as written on LoS (which talk strictly about conjurations on zone borders) cannot completely apply. 

Because "LoS that passes through two sides of this zone is blocked" the Steep Hill needs to be envisaged as a raised platform with straight up and down sides. Since LoS goes from centre to centre there isn't any virtual 'gentle slope' you can peek over to look into a diagonally adjacent zone.

Simply put, if you are standing in a zone adjacent to a Steep Hill you do not have LoS to any zone border other than the one directly in front of you, because there is a large mass of earth sitting in the middle of the zone.

It has been argued that walls, sitting on a zone border, do not "cross" a border, but clearly the rules on range show that walls belong to, and affect, both bordering zones and thus casting a wall must necessitate "passing" the zone border in some way. (You might also say that since you can't have two walls back-to-back against each on either side of a zone border a wall must have a foot in both camps, as it were.)

If you think of it like that, then you need to cross two zone borders to cast a wall along the far or side zone borders of an adjacent zone (even if only by a little bit).

I am usually all in favour of taking rules-as-written, but in this case I do not think the rule has been written. LoS as it refers to seeing through walls is certainly there and is very clear, but there is nothing other than a fairly vague one line for a LoS blocker that sits within a zone. Rules-as-intended need to have the casting vote.

tl/dr: You can't build a wall on the other side of a Steep Hill, because you can't see the zone border as there is a Steep Hill in the way.   

240
Strategy and Tactics / Re: Who do you suck against?
« on: November 10, 2017, 01:10:43 AM »
Priestesses.

For one thing I know it is likely to be a slow grind whichever way it goes, and for the second thing I run a lot of Necromancers and Warlocks, and Priestess has a lot of kit to counter what I have to throw at them.

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