Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: fas723 on June 25, 2015, 05:32:54 PM
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As of today the only ceature that can be qc is the Tartaree. In general a quite weak creature and not a very common play what I have seen. And then we have the Beastmaster ability to qc level 1 creatures that is one of the most powerful abilities of all mages. So how valuable is the qc trait for a creature?
What if you had the chance to change any creature into having the qc trait, and pay for it by removing another trait it currently had. Is there any such deal you wouldn't make? Could you name one creature that you would keep as is in favour of not having the qc trait (with the expenses of one other trait)?
Example: Would the Hydra be considered more or less powerful if it didn't had trippel strike and was able to be qc instead?
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seems odd to trade traits. i would go with "how much mana extra would you spend to make this a quickcast"
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if you spend more mana, the level will increase.
trading traits shows the value better.
qc is realy valuable for little-medium creature, for big ones the mana cost allready limits your cast speed.
for the hydra, I think I woudn't cast a creature for 16 and without any powerfull attack.
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The whole idea whith this topic is to see if we could use our imagination and think of an better trait. :)
Odd or not, see if you could name a creature where you would keep the full action to cast in favour keeping all its trait.
Exid, that means the Beastmaster ability is even more powerfull. But I'm not sure I agree though. :D
A qc Thunderift falcon without flying would I consider being worse then as is in many cases.
However a I would gladly trade any trait to make the Knigh of Westlock qc (like trade it with its defence)
The best example I can think of myself is the Infernian Scourger. I think I would rearly trade counterstike for qc in this case.
seems odd to trade traits. i would go with "how much mana extra would you spend to make this a quickcast"
I guess that what this discussion leads into. My issue with that is if we determine the qc trait is worth more than 3 mana, Tartaree would have a negative cost without it, meaning we have a circle reference...
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I think spellbook point cost is more indicative of how powerful a card is than mana cost. They seem to work in tandem though. I actually invented an alternate variant called mental mage wars, in which, at the end of the planning phase, you can transform your planned spells into other spells that share their spellbook costs. The format has octgn support, so you're free to try it whenever you want.
Also, I think Tataree is a quick action BECAUSE it's level 1 and only 3 mana, rather than being 3 mana because it's a quick action.
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another way to ask would be: what about an qc incantation that would say: "put a creature in play, paying its casting cost"?
what level?
what cost?
what limitations (school, mage limit, creature's level limit, epic,...)
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Maybe there could be an enchantment that allows full actions to be quick cast actions. It could have a hefty upkeep to pay for the advantage and only allow one full cast as quick (like the beast master quick summon) per round.
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Thematically, I always took full casts as spells that take alot of concentration and time to cast. How would this enchantment work? I could see a one off with a large amount of mana (6-8) to reveal, this would be indicative of throwing mana at the problem to solve the time/concentration constraint. But once again it would really be 1 QC for the Enchantment and 1 QC to cast the Full Cast Spell, so you are not saving much from an action efficiency, however it does make the Mage a bit more mobile as he could move once and then reveal the Enchantment and the QC the Full Spell.
This would be in the meta magic/mana area of expertise so more than likely in the Arcane School and yet another yaay! for the Wizard.
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with an incantation (that alows you to put a creature in the game) you have only 1 action used and the 1qc limitation.
it could cost 2X (where X is the cost of the creature)... too expensive. it could better cost X+6 (or 2X but the creature could appear away from the mage!).
the "story" could be a link with life (only living creatures, then), and the spell be nature or holy. or a friend in the armie's direction (only soldiers, then), and the spell be war. or...
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Maybe make it Mind magic? To go off the deep end you could create a new school that is time magic.
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The biggest advantage quick summoning gives is the ability to also move. You can think of that as the cost of a spawnpoint for a turn, or a forcepush that only can affect the caster.
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The biggest advantage quick summoning gives is the ability to also move. You can think of that as the cost of a spawnpoint for a turn, or a forcepush that only can affect the caster.
+ summoning 2 creatures in a turn
+ summoning during the qc phase
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+ summoning 2 creatures in a turn
+ summoning during the qc phase
Yes, those are advantages too. But 2 creatures a turn is limited by the available manna, so it's really only useful on level 1 creatures.
Summoning during the final quickcast phase is neat when you can do it. But to do it, you're stuck casting the other spell during your creature activation. Which is probably fine if it's Hurl Boulder, but not so great if it's Teleport.
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+ summoning 2 creatures in a turn
+ summoning during the qc phase
Yes, those are advantages too. But 2 creatures a turn is limited by the available manna, so it's really only useful on level 1 creatures.
Summoning during the final quickcast phase is neat when you can do it. But to do it, you're stuck casting the other spell during your creature activation. Which is probably fine if it's Hurl Boulder, but not so great if it's Teleport.
I agree, these are no huge advantages... but moove+cast isn't either.
what realy makes the summoning more "nervous" is rouse the beast!
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Move is huge. Proper movement halves the damage a mage takes, for example. Movement is the reason Teleport is the strongest card in the game.
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I should elaborate:
Step 1: move 1 zone after being attacked.
Step 2: the next round, move 1 zone before being attacked.
Step 3: repeat.
By doing this, you can put 2 zones distance between yourself and your attacker half of the time. This gives you both your actions, while costing the attacker a double move every 2nd round.
The Full Action requirement on summoning limits it to every 2nd round, in this example. Which means a 1 turn delay in summoning, half the time.
There are lots of other things you can do with movement, too: consider the rush. An agro mage could double move on the 1st round and still summon a big nasty (e.g. Cervere) with the starting mana, instead of waiting till round 2. This would let the attacker hit on round 2 instead of 3, which would be a dramatic improvement.
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An enchantment that let you treat all full-action spells and attacks as quick action - perhaps with a restriction that you can't use your quick-cast to perform them, so no double-summoning or other double-full cast - at the cost of upkeep would be great for a lot of mages. For instance, it would allow the Johktari Beastmaster to move (possibly even double-move) and attack with her bow in the same round. And she wouldn't mind an upkeep cost given she doesn't need much mana on turns she can attack with her weapon.
On the other hand, it might be too good on the Forcemaster with Galvitar. Her full attack is a lot better than her quick attack.
If it could target any creature, it could allow some non-mage creatures to move and use their full-action attacks or spells as wel!
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On the other hand, it might be too good on the Forcemaster with Galvitar. Her full attack is a lot better than her quick attack.
That is why I suggested a one off Enchantment that allows a Mage to Quick Cast a Full Cast Spell. It would still allow for a 1 zone movement and a Full Cast spell, think creature summoning or moving in to a zone late in the round and using a Full Cast zone attack whose range it typically 0-0 or even 1 zone away from a bunch of creatures for a 0-1 based Full Cast attack spell.
I think trying to make everything that is Full a Quick would break to much never see the light of day.
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Upkeep would be the wrong sort of cost, specifically because Forcemaster is so good at upkeeps. Maybe it costs the action of a familiar? Theme it as the familiar helps cast the spell quicker.
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Upkeep would be the wrong sort of cost, specifically because Forcemaster is so good at upkeeps. Maybe it costs the action of a familiar? Theme it as the familiar helps cast the spell quicker.
Forcemaster is only good at upkeeps on Mind spells (via [mwcard=FWQ07]Psi-Orb[/mwcard]). Make this a non-Mind spell and give it an upkeep of 2 and it might not be too good on a Forcemaster. In comparison to other mages. If it's still too good on Forcemasters and maybe Wizards, consider "Beastmaster only"; it won't help the Straywood Beastmaster much as he already has Quick Summoning of level 1's (including as a quick-cast), but it would go along way towards making Johktari playable, both for move + attack and move + summon.
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10 channeling and the best melee weapon in the game go a long way toward generating excess mana for paying upkeeps, which are really how she wants to spend her mana anyway because they don't cost actions, of which she has so few.
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qc any full attack??? that's a very larger question than qc summon spells!
I can't thik to all effects of such a card, but it seems to powerfull applied to range attacks (even if it's a nice idea to try to boost Johktari).
And about the qc phase restriction, it would make it much less fun.
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I think it should be reserved for an Archmage ability. It requires too much experience and years of practice to speed up the summoning of most creatures. :)
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qc any full attack??? that's a very larger question than qc summon spells!
I can't thik to all effects of such a card, but it seems to powerfull applied to range attacks (even if it's a nice idea to try to boost Johktari).
And about the qc phase restriction, it would make it much less fun.
I specifically mentioned it would only allow you to perform full-cast spells and full actions as quick during the action phase. Can't be done with your quick-cast marker. Otherwise it would allow 2 full cast spells/attacks per turn, which would almost certainly be too good. The goal is to allow movement (which could be double with Fast) plus full action, but not full action + full action quick cast. Besides, the quick cast rules already state you can only cast spells, not perform melee actions or move, using your quick cast marker.
Now, if this enchantment could target any creature, perhaps with a Magebind cost, it means that any non-Slow creature, like a Grizzly or Adramelech or most creatures with Ranged attacks, could move + full-action attack. This would actually increase the value of curses that cause Slow (Enfeeble ) or damage upon movement (Chains of Agony).