Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: MrSaucy on January 04, 2014, 02:38:20 AM
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I didn't see a thread about this under the "Spells" forum so I thought I would make it. The topic is pretty simple - spells you commonly find useful. And by this I mean spells you tend to use in a variety of spellbooks regardless of which mage you are using. So why not make a list of such spells? It might not be useful for the hardcore players but it could be useful for players who are new to the game.
The majority of these spells are level 1 spells, which definitely plays a role in them being commonly useful.
FROM THE WAR SCHOOL
Ivarium Longbow (Equipment)
Gauntlets of Strength (Equipment)
Retaliate (Enchantment)
Battle Fury (Incantation)
Piercing Strike (Incantation)
Evade (Incantation)
FROM THE HOLY SCHOOL
Divine Might (Enchantment)
Healing Wand (Equipment)
Minor Heal (Incantation)
Heal (Incantation)
FROM THE DARK SCHOOL
Agony (Enchantment)
Maim Wings (Enchantment) - can use Knockdown instead if holy mage
FROM THE ARCANE SCHOOL
Mana Crystal (Conjuration)
Elemental Cloak (Equipment)
Nullify (Enchantment)
Seeking Dispel (Incantation)
Dispel (Incantation)
Teleport (Incantation)
FROM THE MIND SCHOOL
Block (Enchantment)
Force Push (Incantation)
Knockdown (Incantation)
FROM THE NATURE SCHOOL
Tanglevine (Conjuration)
Mana Flower (Conjuration)
Regrowth Belt (Equipment)
Bear Strength (Enchantment)
Hawkeye (Enchantment)
Falcon Precision (Enchantment)
Regrowth (Enchantment)
Mongoose Agility (Enchantment) - can arguably replace Evade in certain spellbooks
Rouse the Beast (Incantation)
FROM EARTH / AIR / WATER / FIRE SCHOOLS
Stormdrake Hide (Air, Equipment)
Jet Stream (Air, Attack)
Dragonscale Hauberk (Fire, Equipment)
Dissolve (Water, Incantation)
Acid Ball (Water, Attack)
Surging Wave (Water, Attack)
Edit on 1/4/14: Mana Prism removed. Mana Flower and Mana Crystal added. Surging Wave added.
Edit on 1/4/14: Retaliate, Jet Stream, Acid Ball, Healing Wand, Mongoose Agility added.
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At the moment I'd run Power Strike over Piercing Strike regardless of book. It's slightly worse if your target has 3+ armour you need to get through, but much better in all other cases. With Zombies, Skeletons, and Plants out there are a lot more creatures with 0 or low armour at the start.
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Drain life/soul, whirling strike, and force crush are pretty good
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Drain life/soul, whirling strike, and force crush are pretty good
Drain Soul and Drain Life are Dark Mage only, so wouldn't go on the OP's list.
Force Crush is kinda difficult to put into non-FM books due to the cost. Useful of course, but not to the point that a majority of books would take it at 6.
Also, I find Battle Fury to be much better than Whirling Strike. It's cheaper, you can get the same effect out of Battle Fury if the creature has a Sweeping Attack, and you can use it to apply more pain to one creature/object.
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Divine Might (Enchantment)
For now it's not worth much. Whirling Spirit and Gray Wraith are only Incorporal monster for now
Mana Prism (Conjuration)
Again not worth to put in spellbook, very situational spell. Good only against mana control Wizard
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Retaliate
(could be the most underrated card but one of the golden oldies)
Surging Wave!!!!!
(stay tuned for the for the cast I explain why)
I usually don't run any of the heal / minor heals. The only argument i find myself debating is healing charm.
Divine Might (Enchantment)
For now it's not worth much. Whirling Spirit and Gray Wraith are only Incorporal monster for now
The Invisible stalker goes in that list also.
Then there are the Incorporeal conjurations such as mana siphon, poison gas cloud, Pentagram, Fog bank, and wall of fire. (might have forgotten a few)
It is definitely a card that I have no doubt will be more useful later than it is currently
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Divine Might (Enchantment)
For now it's not worth much. Whirling Spirit and Gray Wraith are only Incorporal monster for now
Mana Prism (Conjuration)
Again not worth to put in spellbook, very situational spell. Good only against mana control Wizard
I expect Divine Might to become more important as more incorporeal creatures are added to the game. Whirling Spirit, Gray Wraith, and Invisible Stalker are still quite difficult to kill without ethereal attacks though.
I have removed Mana Prism. I originally included it because I mistakenly thought it worked on removal costs for condition markers.
@Kharhaz I am on the fence about including Retaliate on this list. I need to use more Retaliate in more spellbooks before I can make that decision. Surging Wave is a good suggestion though. Didn't think about that. It is cheap, ranges 0-2, unavoidable, puts out burn conditions, and has ~83% chance of Slam. The only thing I dislike about it is that it can't target flyers.
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I don't think teleport is such a staple at 4 let alone 8 if u use 2 copy but its not like we have ever agreed on anything that's what opinions are for
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I don't think teleport is such a staple at 4 let alone 8 if u use 2 copy but its not like we have ever agreed on anything that's what opinions are for
Playing as Warlord? 0 Teleport
Playing as Arcane Mage? 2 Teleport
Playing as something else? 1-2 Teleport if and only if you have spare points.
Teleport is useful for wiggling your way out of Tanglevines, ignoring walls entirely, punishing/containing enemy creatures (especially the slow ones), and putting the opponent's mage in an uncomfortable position. Teleport is by no meas mandatory, but it is certainly useful in a variety of circumstances.
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Divine Might (Enchantment)
For now it's not worth much. Whirling Spirit and Gray Wraith are only Incorporal monster for now
Mana Prism (Conjuration)
Again not worth to put in spellbook, very situational spell. Good only against mana control Wizard
I expect Divine Might to become more important as more incorporeal creatures are added to the game. Whirling Spirit, Gray Wraith, and Invisible Stalker are still quite difficult to kill without ethereal attacks though.
I have removed Mana Prism. I originally included it because I mistakenly thought it worked on removal costs for condition markers.
@Kharhaz I am on the fence about including Retaliate on this list. I need to use more Retaliate in more spellbooks before I can make that decision. Surging Wave is a good suggestion though. Didn't think about that. It is cheap, ranges 0-2, unavoidable, puts out burn conditions, and has ~83% chance of Slam. The only thing I dislike about it is that it can't target flyers.
Retaliate is a really strong card, especially since the Battle Fury errata.
Its good because its not a mandatory reveal (so you can actually choose when you get your second attack)
And, like Battle Fury used to be ruled, its a new attack and not an "additional strike".. so you get full damage from melee+X, Vampirism, and other buffs. With good timing, you can reveal it the same round as you Battle Fury and can squeeze a third attack out of yourself or a creature (assuming you or that creature is being attacked.)
Surging Wave's high Slam chance is reliable enough that I usually run it instead of Knockdown in most cases.
Jet Stream is also a strong contender as a generally useful card, very high Push chance plus damage… if you are pushing a target through a passage attack walls you don't have to pay extra mana for the effect like you would with Push, Bash or Wave. So in that case its not only cheaper but you also get the Jet Stream Damage on top of the Wall damage. (Plus its etherial and gets even more damage against Flying targets. )
The problem with Divine Might is that, by the same reasoning that they will add more incorporeal objects.. they will also continue to add Etherial attack spells and creatures with Etherial attacks, or weapons that do Etherial damage, all of which makes the card unneeded in most cases. I generally have enough Etherial damage on hand passively just from Attack spells/weapon choice/creatures already present in the spell book.
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It's actually Mana Flower, not Mana Plant.
You're also missing Mongoose Agility (permanent Evade), Acid Ball (softening up big targets/killing zombies), and Healing Wand (removing conditions) to name a few.
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Id also mention Enchanter's Ring. If you cast more than 2 friendly Enchantments it pays for itself. It is not mage specific and can double dip discounts from Ring of Command, Force Ring, and so on if those Enchantments type up with the other.
Also, its one of the few examples of "OR" cards.. letting you be trained in it from two different schools to make it more open for spell book inclusion. (Id like to see more "X or Y" style trainings in the future on spells.)
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Great suggestions from everybody. :)
If we get enough additional ethereal attacks from future expansions I will remove Divine Might from the list. For now I think I'll keep it.
I thought about adding Power Strike but Battle Fury seems like a better choice anyways, especially since Battle Fury still only costs 1 spellpoint.
I am not sold on Enchanter's Ring, though I have never used it to be honest.
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Playing as Warlord? 0 Teleport
Playing as Arcane Mage? 2 Teleport
Playing as something else? 1-2 Teleport if and only if you have spare points.
Man, do we disagree on this one. My Warlord books have 2 teleports, and it goes up from there.
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Playing as Warlord? 0 Teleport
Playing as Arcane Mage? 2 Teleport
Playing as something else? 1-2 Teleport if and only if you have spare points.
Man, do we disagree on this one. My Warlord books have 2 teleports, and it goes up from there.
I spend at least 8 points on Teleports, regardless of mage. 12 or 16 if I can afford it.
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I am not sold on Enchanter's Ring, though I have never used it to be honest.
Its another one of those that I put in most spell books. I mean.. just look at how many of those commonly useful spells are enchantments.
Its 2 mana cost is made up for after casting any combination of two of lets say… Nullify, Forcefeild, Bear Strength, Cheetah Speed, Enchantment Transfusion, Block, Reverse Attack, Harmonize, Regrowth, Healing Charm, Vampirism, Divine Might, Rise Again (friendly cast), Divine Intervention, Falcon Precision, Hawkeye, Bark Skin, Rhino Hide… the list goes on and on. It also makes Decoy only cost 1 mana, so when it reveals to give you 2 you actually gain mana in the process.
Its a pretty big mana saver for any buff heavy mage like a Forcemaster, or support heavy mage like Beastmaster, Druid or Wizard.
Usually I go with Enchanters Ring+"Mage Discount Ring" for broader discount potential instead of a +1 Damage Ring or Defense Ring or anything like that.
Another spell that is almost always included for me, though is not popularly an auto-include is Dancing Scimitar. The +1 upkeep can be a bummer, but for what is basically a bonus attack action every turn that also doesn't occupy an equipment slot and has the option to be a defense in a pinch, its worth it. In a game where actions are so valuable its handy to have an extra attack each turn for getting rid of stragglers or vine tokens, or spreading your damage out or focusing fire, or for helping chip away at conjurations, or stripping blocks/reverse attacks off of a target.. its just so flexible and adds up damage fast if it gets a chance to attack constantly.
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Playing as Warlord? 0 Teleport
Playing as Arcane Mage? 2 Teleport
Playing as something else? 1-2 Teleport if and only if you have spare points.
Man, do we disagree on this one. My Warlord books have 2 teleports, and it goes up from there.
I spend at least 8 points on Teleports, regardless of mage. 12 or 16 if I can afford it.
True story.
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Playing as Warlord? 0 Teleport
Playing as Arcane Mage? 2 Teleport
Playing as something else? 1-2 Teleport if and only if you have spare points.
Man, do we disagree on this one. My Warlord books have 2 teleports, and it goes up from there.
I spend at least 8 points on Teleports, regardless of mage. 12 or 16 if I can afford it.
True story.
Absolutely! IMO teleport is one of the strongest if not the strongest spell in the whole game! Actually I find it so strong that I would think about an errata (its so strong that every other mage has a disadvantage against the wizard only because he gets them for so few spellpoints - especially if you count in that mage wand is also cheap and great in combination with teleport).
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I know this is another populist poll of “opinions” but after a traumatic weekend, I’ll bite for some light relief.
The criteria is too broad. Bear Strength is prevalent in Aggro, Nullify in Control, Transfusion in Combo.
I approached this by applying the Law of Supply and Demand to determine what spells to list.
“What spells do I always find I don’t have enough, so I end up moving them between books?”
Of course they are all from Core Set (I have 2 Sets, no Tomes) as expansions come in full sets.
(* = level 2, otherwise all level 1 cheap splash)
DARK
Agony
Poisoned Blood (timed reveal but who active heals?)
*Vampirism
HOLY
Hand of Bim-Shalla (max. 1 per aggro book)
MIND
Decoy (novice, rooting out Nullify, surprise mana play vs. pros)
Force Push (see Wall of Thorns)
WAR
*Battle Forge
Battle Fury (why use situational Whirlwind Strike?)
Gauntlets of Strength
Retaliate
NATURE
Bear Strength (why use Power Strike?)
Enchanter’s Ring
Mongoose Agility (why use Evade?)
Regrowth
Regrowth Belt
Rouse the Beast (+1 attack lifetime value + opportunity gain)
Tanglevine
Wall of Thorns (see Force Push)
ARCANE
Dispel
Elemental Cloak
Jinx (any Aggro book and Transfusion Combo)
Mage Staff (cheap, reach + ethereal)
*Mage Wand (see Teleport)
Mana Crystal (more prevalent/resilient than Flower)
Nullify (for Control builds only)
Seeking Dispel (to disrupt Transfusion Combo books)
*Teleport (see Mage Wand)
*Wizard's Tower (play too many Wizard variants)
ELEMENTAL (most meta-dependent)
Dissolve (alternatives exist but cheaper basic needed)
Dragonscale Hauberk
*Elemental Wand (hence no attack spells in list)
Useful expansion cards include Surging Wave, Hurl Boulder, Enchantment Transfusion (to protect "2 Wands Control" with timed Nullifies), Veteran’s Belt and Healing Wand (or Renewing Spring if mobile swarm), all excluded in this list as they come as a full set.
I find this strong evidence that Arcane and Nature are the top schools (or at least greatest strategy versatility, hence multiple books).
Holy does seem to be the least splashed major school, active healing debunked as too action intensive, even for Priestess (Enchanter’s Ring + Healing Charm best, lures opponent to spend action resources to “one round remove” threat, only for target to heal himself in correct attack step). With recent FAQ changes, is it time to rescind the Hand of Bim-Shalla and Battle Fury card errata? (Temple of Light still stays as errata, precursor to utility Wizard’s Tower).
While on the topic of errata, as for Teleport, often cited as the number 1 spell on this forum’s populist polls, it’s purely coincidence I find myself missing sufficient Teleports and Mage Wands for the variant strategies of Wizard I like to play. Oh no, there’s absolutely nothing broken about Teleport and nobody has been campaigning for it to be errata’d to “non-Enemy Mage”.
Teleport (and my inability to play "fun" weak books) is the reason why my local meta who taught me Mage Wars now rarely play it.
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Bear Strength (why use Power Strike?)
Because they stack. Useful since it's much cheaper than Battle Fury in terms of mana and spell book points (especially for the Druid), and you can use it to surprise your opponent. Also rolling 13+ dice in one attack is fun.
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Also rolling 13+ dice in one attack is fun.
*cough* Win More *cough* :)
Yeah, I have "fun" issues. The acid test: is it efficient? Not really.
Sidetrack on Commands, Persistent Enchants and Triggered Enchants
I do sometimes use 1 copy of Piercing Strike but it's more a meta decision (we know why).
I appreciate nonliving needs Commands (Golem + Charge, Brute + Evade though Force Push more utility).
Otherwise the whole Persistent Enchantments vs. cheaper one-shot Commands is flawed.
Persistent Enchants (with Ring) + Resilient Creatures (for multiple enchant use) is way more efficient.
Especially as creatures are often gamelong.
Then we come to Triggered Enchants. This is not as straightforward as their value is instant speed trickery
Non-mandatory (Retaliate, Decoy, Transfusion, Healing Charm, Divine Intervention etc) are the strongest.
Mandatory triggers are far too risky unless you are straight trading actions
(Hence why Block, Reverse Attack, Reverse Magic are far rarer than Nullify and Jinx, both just delay buffers).
Stumble is fine though (I prefer 1 mana more Force Hold for its greater versatility but 4 spell points harsh).
AW trying to make Commands work is intrinsically flawed based on efficiency analysis. Hence the Warlord issue.
But then, this is just my analysis of the game, Aylin. I have been known to change my position...
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Also rolling 13+ dice in one attack is fun.
*cough* Win More *cough* :)
Yeah, I have "fun" issues. The acid test: is it efficient? Not really.
Sidetrack on Commands, Persistent Enchants and Triggered Enchants
I do sometimes use 1 copy of Piercing Strike but it's more a meta decision (we know why).
I appreciate nonliving needs Commands (Golem + Charge, Brute + Evade though Force Push more utility).
Otherwise the whole Persistent Enchantments vs. cheaper one-shot Commands is flawed.
Persistent Enchants (with Ring) + Resilient Creatures (for multiple enchant use) is way more efficient.
Especially as creatures are often gamelong.
Then we come to Triggered Enchants. This is not as straightforward as their value is instant speed trickery
Non-mandatory (Retaliate, Decoy, Transfusion, Healing Charm, Divine Intervention etc) are the strongest.
Mandatory triggers are far too risky unless you are straight trading actions
(Hence why Block, Reverse Attack, Reverse Magic are far rarer than Nullify and Jinx, both just delay buffers).
Stumble is fine though (I prefer 1 mana more Force Hold for its greater versatility but 4 spell points harsh).
AW trying to make Commands work is intrinsically flawed based on efficiency analysis. Hence the Warlord issue.
But then, this is just my analysis of the game, Aylin. I have been known to change my position...
Even though I've seen you swap sides repeatedly, on this issue I mostly agree with you. There really isn't any reason to use Evade or Perfect Strike if you're using Living Creatures. Honestly I don't think the incantations will get much use on living creatures as long as their Novice versions of enchantments. Instead I wish they'd model them after Charge instead, where you get the enchantment benefit plus something extra for a turn.
But the reason I take a Power Strike in my Druid book is because a Battle Fury is so expensive for her I have trouble justifying it. I use it when having the extra 2 dice gives me ~50% or better of killing whatever creature/conjuration in one hit, especially if that object hasn't acted yet this round. EDIT: I thought I should specify that I'm referring to dangerous targets here, such as a Wizard's Tower or an opposing Galador.
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Even though I've seen you swap sides repeatedly, on this issue I mostly agree with you. There really isn't any reason to use Evade or Perfect Strike if you're using Living Creatures. Honestly I don't think the incantations will get much use on living creatures as long as their Novice versions of enchantments. Instead I wish they'd model them after Charge instead, where you get the enchantment benefit plus something extra for a turn.
But the reason I take a Power Strike in my Druid book is because a Battle Fury is so expensive for her I have trouble justifying it. I use it when having the extra 2 dice gives me ~50% or better of killing whatever creature/conjuration in one hit, especially if that object hasn't acted yet this round.
"Repeatedly"? Does that mean I switched twice on another issue back to my original viewpoint? Let it go...
Otherwise, I totally agree with you on both Charge and why Druid may want to use a Novice boost.
Oh dear. It seems we are in total agreement here. I think I'm going to have a lie down now... :)
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"Repeatedly"? Does that mean I switched twice on another issue back to my original viewpoint? Let it go...
I was referring to the Wizard declaring element thread, which was pretty funny how many times you switched sides.
Otherwise, I totally agree with you on both Charge and why Druid may want to use a Novice boost.
Oh dear. It seems we are in total agreement here. I think I'm going to have a lie down now... :)
It was bound to happen again sooner or later.
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I was referring to the Wizard declaring element thread, which was pretty funny how many times you switched sides.
Really? And there was I thinking I was firmly 100% all the time on the side of the Wizard not declaring element. I even got a PM from a designer thanking me for my "spirited defence" of not declaring their element, which almost swayed them. Obviously, neither of us noticed the many times I switched sides which some found "pretty funny" too.
I still think it would have been great to leverage information as a resource. Imagine the Prophetess mage who gets to see all your cards picked at the end of Planning (so as to allow mirror match) and can look at all hidden enchantments as her 2 mage abilities. She can't be surprised. It's another example of adding a new dimension of "information as a resource" into the game. Sadly the designers did not agree. It did provoke me, however, to finally join them as a playtester (as sIKE put it, "to influence from the inside"). I only wish I had done so before as I would have been better placed to tip the argument the other way. (I think they invited me because it means I make far less trouble on the public forums these days - or so they thought.)
Much of the dismay about the Wizard not declaring was because "the Wizard is too strong!" And that's because of Teleport (oh dear, I did let slip a secret?) and to less extent Mage Wand, being able to win Teleport Wars and Wand Wars against any non-Wizard. They should have just nerfed Teleport to "non-Enemy Mage" and left the Wizard as a mysterious trickster who switches elemental allegiance at a drop of a hat (like unprincipled posters who switch sides repeatedly in a debate). Make him sneaky, more a trickster Illusionist than brute force Evoker.
And so we are back to Teleport as a "Commonly Useful Spell" - because it's too powerful and needs nerfing!
(See Shad0w, how I even managed get this back on topic.)
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I find this strong evidence that Arcane and Nature Dark are the top schools (or at least greatest strategy versatility, hence multiple books).
I fixed that for you.
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I was referring to the Wizard declaring element thread, which was pretty funny how many times you switched sides.
Really? And there was I thinking I was firmly 100% all the time on the side of the Wizard not declaring element. I even got a PM from a designer thanking me for my "spirited defence" of not declaring their element, which almost swayed them. Obviously, neither of us noticed the many times I switched sides which some found "pretty funny" too.
You switched sides here (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13341.msg26833#msg26833) and here (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13341.msg26899#msg26899).
I still think it would have been great to leverage information as a resource. Imagine the Prophetess mage who gets to see all your cards picked at the end of Planning (so as to allow mirror match) and can look at all hidden enchantments as her 2 mage abilities. She can't be surprised. It's another example of adding a new dimension of "information as a resource" into the game. Sadly the designers did not agree. It did provoke me, however, to finally join them as a playtester (as sIKE put it, "to influence from the inside"). I only wish I had done so before as I would have been better placed to tip the argument the other way. (I think they invited me because it means I make far less trouble on the public forums these days - or so they thought.)
Much of the dismay about the Wizard not declaring was because "the Wizard is too strong!" And that's because of Teleport (oh dear, I did let slip a secret?) and to less extent Mage Wand, being able to win Teleport Wars and Wand Wars against any non-Wizard. They should have just nerfed Teleport to "non-Enemy Mage" and left the Wizard as a mysterious trickster who switches elemental allegiance at a drop of a hat (like unprincipled posters who switch sides repeatedly in a debate). Make him sneaky, more a trickster Illusionist than brute force Evoker.
I think the Wizard's currently the strongest for more than just Teleport and Mage Wands. The bigger issue I think is that they've put so many staple spells for books into the Arcane school and left some of the other schools (particularly Holy and War) fairly empty by comparison. Everyone takes Dispels, Teleports, and at least one Elemental Cloak, and many players also take Mage Wands, Mage Staff, and Nullify. No other school even comes close to having that many staple spells, except perhaps Nature (and most of the borrowed spells from that school are level 1). Also the Wizard has the best familiar in the game right now, and that's pretty significant as well.
I agree that Teleport is probably the strongest spell in the game though. Perhaps its power could be diminished with a Dimensional Anchor spell, that either increases the cost of an opponent teleporting you or your creatures, or increases the cost of all teleport effects on you and your creatures. Just something that can fight a Teleport besides Teleport (and Nullify, though that almost never works).
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I fixed that for you.
Aaah Kharhaz, we were just talking about "switching sides"... :)
Aw shucks, thanks for correcting my silly typo there.
Dark is indeed strong and has numerous strategies including
* Warlock Elite Aggro
* Warlock Curses Transfusion Combo
* Warlock Near Solo Control with Fire
* Necro Spawnpoint Swarm
* Necro Elites (4 Brutes Mage Hunt)
But I contend that Nature has even more archetypes.
* Thornlasher and Raptors have made Jokhtari a force (except vs. Golems/Jellies)
* Druid can be played Aggro, Turtle, Ranged Maze, Remote etc
* Straywood has Weenie Swarm, Dog Swarm, Aggro Elites, Mid Range Lair etc
I guess I prefer Buffs to Debuffs.
My theory is every Buff should increase the longevity of my creature, making all those Buffs more efficient.
With non-mage Debuffs, the more I reduce longevity, the less efficient my increasing investment becomes.
Also, if Aggro targets the enemy mage, Buffs are game long while only Mage Debuffs are good investment.
I also think Straywood and Druid mage abilities are stronger than their Dark counterparts.
(Jokhtari is let down because both Wounded Prey and Bleed is unable to affect Nonliving)
I will agree, however, that the meta currently favours Dark purely because of Lord of Fire.
(In a recent game, I know my opponent's Warlock plays Lord of Fire, he won Initiative to play second against my Fire Wizard but he made a mistake leaving his corner as I cast Drain Power in round 2 Early QC then summoned him in round 3, crucial in the Flame match-up).
Lord of Fire is a beast in the current meta, a very "Timmy" play that does well (oooh, look how big he is).
Dark vs Nature power levels is an interesting debate, Kharhaz, which I'd love to discuss (on its own thread?).
Sadly, it's 12.45am GMT here in UK so maybe discuss another time.
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Speaking of dark goodness, necropian vampiress is so good she even appears in occasional holy builds despite triple cost
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Speaking of dark goodness, necropian vampiress is so good she even appears in occasional holy builds despite triple cost
Good point, Baron! Vampiress and Grizzly are "go to creatures" for an aggressive Arcane mage build. But triple?
We both know that Divine Intervention + Vampiress (for distance resilience) is flawed against most solid builds.
With Raptor Vine and Zombie Brute (and Thornlasher board control), we need to re-evaluate these older builds.
I think I've confused "splashable" with top schools here, my bad. Everyone splashes Arcane and Nature spells.
An example: say there was the following mage:
Magician (region: Kharhaz) - a mysterious master of diverse magics who can shift his magical allegiances
Trained in 2 schools of your choice. Pays triple for 2 major schools of your choice.
You need not declare your training unless required to so as to check play legality.
You must declare your training at the end of the game when revealing your book.
You may hand in a new spell book list with different training between tournament games.
Channel 10, Life 32, Melee Basic 3
This mage would be released in an unthemed Utility Set with just extra copies of Core Set spells I've listed.
I am also exploring the "information is a resource" concept of Prophetess above (while having a cheap dig).
I think the most popular default training choice (before scouting tournament meta) would be
"Trained in Arcane and Nature, pays triple for Holy and Mind"
(Already experimenting Thornlashers snatching into Hydra pits).
This gives an indication of just where the 6 Major schools stand in terms of utility and power ranking.
Arcane 1, Nature/Dark 2, Rest 3
This is because in school elements of the other 3 major schools are debunked:
(a) Commands don't work for Living, War = Battle Forge, equips & Battle Fury
(b) Actvive Healing is too action & mana intensive, the inverse of attack burst
(c) Too much Unavoidable/Psychic Immune, Mind = Force Push & novice Decoy
AW need to work on making those other 3 schools contribute more cheap spells to every spell book
(Baron & Kharhaz, let's not argue Dark is such a strong school as it begs the question about the focus of the next release...)
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I do sometimes use 1 copy of Piercing Strike but it's more a meta decision (we know why).
I appreciate nonliving needs Commands (Golem + Charge, Brute + Evade though Force Push more utility).
Otherwise the whole Persistent Enchantments vs. cheaper one-shot Commands is flawed.
Persistent Enchants (with Ring) + Resilient Creatures (for multiple enchant use) is way more efficient.
Especially as creatures are often gamelong.
...
AW trying to make Commands work is intrinsically flawed based on efficiency analysis. Hence the Warlord issue.
More efficient, yes, but also more vulnerable. Any persistent or triggered enchantment can be dispelled, and will be if its effect on the game is high enough (e.g. Bear Strength on a Grizzly). Meanwhile a Power Strike user can give that same effect with extremely little counter-play.
The Warlord's Command Ring intensifies this effect...he ends up only spending 1-3 mana a round buffing his creatures, meaning he has enough to summon a level 4 one round, then buff it the next, then summon another level 4 the following round, etc. Persistent enchantments can't achieve the same effect on a mana pool, and they are not more efficient if they get dispelled one or arguably two turns later.
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I do sometimes use 1 copy of Piercing Strike but it's more a meta decision (we know why).
I appreciate nonliving needs Commands (Golem + Charge, Brute + Evade though Force Push more utility).
Otherwise the whole Persistent Enchantments vs. cheaper one-shot Commands is flawed.
Persistent Enchants (with Ring) + Resilient Creatures (for multiple enchant use) is way more efficient.
Especially as creatures are often gamelong.
...
AW trying to make Commands work is intrinsically flawed based on efficiency analysis. Hence the Warlord issue.
More efficient, yes, but also more vulnerable. Any persistent or triggered enchantment can be dispelled, and will be if its effect on the game is high enough (e.g. Bear Strength on a Grizzly). Meanwhile a Power Strike user can give that same effect with extremely little counter-play.
The Warlord's Command Ring intensifies this effect...he ends up only spending 1-3 mana a round buffing his creatures, meaning he has enough to summon a level 4 one round, then buff it the next, then summon another level 4 the following round, etc. Persistent enchantments can't achieve the same effect on a mana pool, and they are not more efficient if they get dispelled one or arguably two turns later.
i disagree so much.
Say im a BM with a grizzly bear and lets leave rings out.
If i play power strike i spend 2 mana, but my opponent spends 0 mana no action.
If i play Bear strength i spend 5 mana, but my opponent spends 5 mana and spends and action.
The result is the same: 2 extra dice rolled.
How can you ever value 3 mana more than taking an action from an opponent and 5 of his mana.
(this is assuming that he bothers with dispel)
There are a few situations where i could consider using powerstrike:
When you got a low HP creature that your sure will die this round, but gets to take its action (attack) and you really need 2 more dice rolled on a target.
When a creature already has Bearstrength for a mega roll especially if that creature is wounded and has vampiric.
Regarding the Ring of Command - It sucks.
You cannot cast it early on and start benefitting from it right away like you can with enchanters ring or Arcane ring.
It also costs 1 more mana so you can cast it round 1 can get 0 benefits until round 4~ish and by round ~7 it has repaid itself. Then you would have been better off casting a flower and get a stable income that doesnt require you to spend an action on a war spell.
If you choose to cast it just before starting the war spell spam, then you spend a valueable action when the clash begins on saving a little mana 3-4 rounds later.
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Speaking of dark goodness, necropian vampiress is so good she even appears in occasional holy builds despite triple cost
Good point, Baron! Vampiress and Grizzly are "go to creatures" for an aggressive Arcane mage build. But triple?
We both know that Divine Intervention + Vampiress (for distance resilience) is flawed against most solid builds.
With Raptor Vine and Zombie Brute (and Thornlasher board control), we need to re-evaluate these older builds.
I think I've confused "splashable" with top schools here, my bad. Everyone splashes Arcane and Nature spells.
An example: say there was the following mage:
Magician (region: Kharhaz) - a mysterious master of diverse magics who can shift his magical allegiances
Trained in 2 schools of your choice. Pays triple for 2 major schools of your choice.
You need not declare your training unless required to so as to check play legality.
You must declare your training at the end of the game when revealing your book.
You may hand in a new spell book list with different training between tournament games.
Channel 10, Life 32, Melee Basic 3
This mage would be released in an unthemed Utility Set with just extra copies of Core Set spells I've listed.
I am also exploring the "information is a resource" concept of Prophetess above (while having a cheap dig).
I think the most popular default training choice (before scouting tournament meta) would be
"Trained in Arcane and Nature, pays triple for Holy and Mind"
(Already experimenting Thornlashers snatching into Hydra pits).
This gives an indication of just where the 6 Major schools stand in terms of utility and power ranking.
Arcane 1, Nature/Dark 2, Rest 3
This is because in school elements of the other 3 major schools are debunked:
(a) Commands don't work for Living, War = Battle Forge, equips & Battle Fury
(b) Actvive Healing is too action & mana intensive, the inverse of attack burst
(c) Too much Unavoidable/Psychic Immune, Mind = Force Push & novice Decoy
AW need to work on making those other 3 schools contribute more cheap spells to every spell book
(Baron & Kharhaz, let's not argue Dark is such a strong school as it begs the question about the focus of the next release...)
Oh, I wasn't getting in on the argument there.. I was just adding my Honeybunny vampiress to the list of great cards out there. (she has always been one of my favorite cards).
Id mention another factor that strengthens Arcane though that doesn't get brought up often... its also an issue that has always annoyed me about the schools in general. Arcane has magic and mana flavored cards but it also gets metamagic, which means it contains all of its own counters. So an Arcane mage not only has an edge on you with those core utilities, but he also edges you out if you try to run counters on them. I think counter magic and mana denial should have a been Mind spells with a "force of will" flavoring. It would make it easier to swallow that Arcane can run more Teleports, Harmonizes, Wands, Transfusions and Wardstones and so on if they weren't also the mage who could easily pack more Dispels, Nullifies and Jinxes too. Arcane should have tricks and mana, but someone else should have counters and mana denial to break up the overall monopoly Arcane has on itself. A card like Mana Prism really should have been a Nature or Holy card as it is made to combat a theme that is almost purely Arcane, (with a little Mind for Supression Orb), while the Prism itself is an Arcane card.
Schools containing their own counters is something that irks me in general… Mind Shield is a Mind Spell, so the mage who can use it most easily is the one who needs it the least. The spell was made to help protect other mages from all the new mind school control effects, but it is governed by the same mage (honestly, it should have just been Novice). Dragonscale Hauberk is a fire spell, so the nature mages who pay triple for fire spells AND generally have a fire weakness have the hardest time using it while the Warlock with multiple fire immune creatures and fire attacks (and his own school-unique armor) can run it easily. Having schools contain their own counters has just always kinda bugged me.
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Schools containing their own counters is something that irks me in general… Mind Shield is a Mind Spell, so the mage who can use it most easily is the one who needs it the least. The spell was made to help protect other mages from all the new mind school control effects, but it is governed by the same mage (honestly, it should have just been Novice). Dragonscale Hauberk is a fire spell, so the nature mages who pay triple for fire spells AND generally have a fire weakness have the hardest time using it while the Warlock with multiple fire immune creatures and fire attacks (and his own school-unique armor) can run it easily. Having schools contain their own counters has just always kinda bugged me.
This is very true and annoying.
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Say im a BM with a grizzly bear and lets leave rings out.
If i play power strike i spend 2 mana, but my opponent spends 0 mana no action.
If i play Bear strength i spend 5 mana, but my opponent spends 5 mana and spends and action.
The result is the same: 2 extra dice rolled.
How can you ever value 3 mana more than taking an action from an opponent and 5 of his mana.
(this is assuming that he bothers with dispel)
You may as well not count the opponent losing 5 mana since you also lost 5 mana for casting the Bear Strength in the first place. So in the end, you can either pay 2 mana or your opponent's action for +2 dice. I certainly see the benefit in that. However I value my investment in the next turn's mana more than I value taking up an opponent's action. If I only use a few mana every other round, then I can bring out Thorg, Sir Corazin, and/or grizzlies every other round (the Forcemaster-Grizzlies book does this). That sort of mana management is not possible if I'm casting Bear's Strengths. And if you add in the Warlord's ring and helment, now it's 1 mana for +2 dice and you don't lose a card from your spellbook for your trouble.
You cannot cast it early on and start benefitting from it right away like you can with enchanters ring or Arcane ring.
It also costs 1 more mana so you can cast it round 1 can get 0 benefits until round 4~ish and by round ~7 it has repaid itself.
If you choose to cast it just before starting the war spell spam, then you spend a valueable action when the clash begins on saving a little mana 3-4 rounds later.
I don't think it matters when you start getting benefit from it. Two or three level 4 creatures will easily last 7+ rounds. That is plenty of time to get the benefit from the ring.
you would have been better off casting a flower
(http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/iqc7CEE0ekE/mqdefault.jpg)
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Magician (region: Kharhaz) - a mysterious master of diverse magics who can shift his magical allegiances
Trained in 2 schools of your choice. Pays triple for 2 major schools of your choice.
You need not declare your training unless required to so as to check play legality.
You must declare your training at the end of the game when revealing your book.
You may hand in a new spell book list with different training between tournament games.
Channel 10, Life 32, Melee Basic 3
This mage would be released in an unthemed Utility Set with just extra copies of Core Set spells I've listed.
I am also exploring the "information is a resource" concept of Prophetess above (while having a cheap dig).
LOL
I am a hardass! 2 schools of my choice? Sweet
I wonder if there is any chance of getting this thread back on topic :P
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Magician (region: Kharhaz) - a mysterious master of diverse magics who can shift his magical allegiances
Trained in 2 schools of your choice. Pays triple for 2 major schools of your choice.
You need not declare your training unless required to so as to check play legality.
You must declare your training at the end of the game when revealing your book.
You may hand in a new spell book list with different training between tournament games.
Channel 10, Life 32, Melee Basic 3
This mage would be released in an unthemed Utility Set with just extra copies of Core Set spells I've listed.
I am also exploring the "information is a resource" concept of Prophetess above (while having a cheap dig).
LOL
I am a hardass! 2 schools of my choice? Sweet
I wonder if there is any chance of getting this thread back on topic :P
Not at this rate! (As I make yet another off-topic post).
I think part of the problem is that there are only a few spells that appear in pretty much every book. Not much more to say after that.
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Id mention another factor that strengthens Arcane though that doesn't get brought up often... its also an issue that has always annoyed me about the schools in general. Arcane has magic and mana flavored cards but it also gets metamagic, which means it contains all of its own counters. So an Arcane mage not only has an edge on you with those core utilities, but he also edges you out if you try to run counters on them. I think counter magic and mana denial should have a been Mind spells with a "force of will" flavoring. It would make it easier to swallow that Arcane can run more Teleports, Harmonizes, Wands, Transfusions and Wardstones and so on if they weren't also the mage who could easily pack more Dispels, Nullifies and Jinxes too. Arcane should have tricks and mana, but someone else should have counters and mana denial to break up the overall monopoly Arcane has on itself. A card like Mana Prism really should have been a Nature or Holy card as it is made to combat a theme that is almost purely Arcane, (with a little Mind for Supression Orb), while the Prism itself is an Arcane card.
Schools containing their own counters is something that irks me in general… Mind Shield is a Mind Spell, so the mage who can use it most easily is the one who needs it the least. The spell was made to help protect other mages from all the new mind school control effects, but it is governed by the same mage (honestly, it should have just been Novice). Dragonscale Hauberk is a fire spell, so the nature mages who pay triple for fire spells AND generally have a fire weakness have the hardest time using it while the Warlock with multiple fire immune creatures and fire attacks (and his own school-unique armor) can run it easily. Having schools contain their own counters has just always kinda bugged me.
In my humble opinion, the cleaniest tweak would be to make Nullify, Dispel, and Jinx into Novice spells. That and Teleport only targeting friendly creatures. Don't know if that would be enough or too much, but it would certainly tilt the power away from Arcane. Would certainly help out the Warlord.
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I agree with baronzaltor. If you want to heal then you have three different ways to do it: direct healing through holy, regeneration through nature, or vampirism through dark. Each has advantages and disadvantages, but since the ways to heal are spread across three different schools, no mage is left out from healing.
If you want to destroy equipment then you also have several options. The water school has straightforward dissolve, the fire school has the more aggressive explode, and the nature school has a conjuration with a built in dissolving ability. The mind school can actually steal the equipment.
In the case of counter-enchantments, however, the arcane school has a monopoly. Ludicrous. The best way to solve the problem is to give a few other schools different ways of dealing with enchantments, in the same way that multiple schools have ways to heal but those ways are meaningfully different.
I also think that some of the basic metamagic spells should have been novice, but I would rather avoid more erratas.
I have no problem with schools containing their own counters. But they should not have a monopoly.
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I agree with baronzaltor. If you want to heal then you have three different ways to do it: direct healing through holy, regeneration through nature, or vampirism through dark. Each has advantages and disadvantages, but since the ways to heal are spread across three different schools, no mage is left out from healing.
If you want to destroy equipment then you also have several options. The water school has straightforward dissolve, the fire school has the more aggressive explode, and the nature school has a conjuration with a built in dissolving ability. The mind school can actually steal the equipment.
In the case of counter-enchantments, however, the arcane school has a monopoly. Ludicrous. The best way to solve the problem is to give a few other schools different ways of dealing with enchantments, in the same way that multiple schools have ways to heal but those ways are meaningfully different.
I also think that some of the basic metamagic spells should have been novice, but I would rather avoid more erratas.
I have no problem with schools containing their own counters. But they should not have a monopoly.
Casting the Holy school healing spells is the most inefficient way of healing though, since it takes an action every time it heals.
Explode and Corrosive Orchid are also prohibitively expensive if you aren't trained in Fire or Nature, respectively. Not to mention the mana cost of those is much higher as well.