Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: Obsidian Soul on January 04, 2018, 09:56:27 AM
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I just wanted to share my latest iteration of my Westlock Priestess. Her strategy involves a defensive phase (relying on her Guardian Angels and Temple Guards to defend her) and then an offensives phase (relying on her Knights of Westlock). She switches from defense to offense when she gets six creatures out, though she possesses a decent offensive capability with Luminous Blasts and the Staff of Asyra if her opponent presses his or her attack too quickly.
Attack Spells (6 Spellpoints)
-Luminous Blast: 6
Conjuration Spells (10 Spellpoints)
-Consecrated Ground: 2
-Hand of Bim-Shalla: 1
-Mana Crystal: 2
-Pillar of Righteousness: 1
-Temple of Meraveran: 1
Creature Spells (36 Spellpoints)
-Guardian Angels: 4
-Knight of Westlock: 4
-Temple High Guard: 4
Enchantment Spells (21 Spellpoints)
-Akiro's Favor: 1
-Circle of Protection: 2
-Divine Intervention: 1
-Eye for an Eye: 4
-Knight's Courage: 2
-Nullify: 2
-Rhino Hide: 1
Equipment Spells (15 Spellpoints)
-Dawnbreaker Ring: 1
-Dragonscale Hauberk: 1
-Elemental Cloak: 1
-Helm of Justice: 1
-Mage Wand: 1
-Moonglow Amulet: 1
-Ring of Asyra: 1
-Staff of Asyra: 1
Incantation Spells (32 Spellpoints)
-Dispel: 2
-Dissolve: 2
-Heal: 4
-Minor Healing: 4
-Purify: 2
-Remove Curse: 2
-Teleport: 2
The spellbook reflects my philosophy of increasing channeling and creature superiority. The first turn is Mana Crystal and Guardian Angel. The second turn is Mana Crystal and Moonglow Amulet. The third turn is Ring of Asyra and Knight of Westlock. With a Channeling of 13, she can hardcast a creature every turn, and get up to six creatures by turn seven (two Guardian Angels, two Knights of Westlock, and two Temple High Guards).
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I think dropping 2 heals for 2 healing madrigals would be a good choice!
Also acritical strike for your knights would be nice!
A range 2 attack like pillar of light or something else would be good.
Also circle of light! If the fight comes to your mage put it on her.
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I like the book as a whole, but I'm dubious about the x creatures by x turn thing.
If a aggressive opponent sees what you are doing, they will change plans and go for you. Sure you will have defensive creatures out by turn 3 (earliest engagement rounds for most aggro books), but those can be worked around.
Having 6 blasts and 4 minor heals and heals also seems excessive. If you plan to hardcast for a minimum of 6-7 rounds, you're basically saying almost everyone of your quick actions after that will be a blast or heal, leaving you little room for much else.
You have me a bit confused here. In the angels of Harlem thread, you said 2-3 angels would just get mauled by Grizzles with unavoidable. Why wouldn't essentially the same thing happen here? Sure, you have more creatures, but all of them have 10-12 life with 1-3 armor with 8 have defenses. So if I take what you said in the other thread, that means thay more creatures wouldn't really matter, no? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but some clarification would be appreciated.
Final thought, I'm still not sold on not using a temple. Typically it will take more actions/mans/sbp for your opponent to destroy than you invested (especially if you don't even open with temple).
Overall an interesting book that leaves me with a lot of questions.
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Well, the problem that I had with the previously mentioned spellbook was not the type of creatures but the number of creatures. I generally find that I lose around 6 creatures in a competitive match, so I like having enough reserve creatures in my spellbook to replace them. The Grizzlies have to deal with the Temple High Guards, which attack before the Grizzlies while guarding and hit them for 6 dice while guarding. The Knights of Westlock exist to hunt the other Mage while the Guardian Angels exist to support either the Knights of Westlock or the Temple High Guards.
As always, I am hesitant about using the Temple because it is just so vulnerable to attack (I have had Temples go down on turn 2 to a combination of Acid Ball and Force Hammer). Yes, they likely spent six spellpoints and 14 mana to get rid of my Temple, but decks built around spawnpoints generally need spawnpoints to succeed. Without a spawnpoint, I can have a Guardian Angel ready on turn 2 to defend me. With a spawnpoint, I might get a Guardian Angel ready to defend me on turn 3. In the type of games that I play, the difference between a turn 2 defender and a turn 3 defender can be a third of my life.
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Well, the problem that I had with the previously mentioned spellbook was not the type of creatures but the number of creatures. I generally find that I lose around 6 creatures in a competitive match, so I like having enough reserve creatures in my spellbook to replace them. The Grizzlies have to deal with the Temple High Guards, which attack before the Grizzlies while guarding and hit them for 6 dice while guarding. The Knights of Westlock exist to hunt the other Mage while the Guardian Angels exist to support either the Knights of Westlock or the Temple High Guards.
As always, I am hesitant about using the Temple because it is just so vulnerable to attack (I have had Temples go down on turn 2 to a combination of Acid Ball and Force Hammer). Yes, they likely spent six spellpoints and 14 mana to get rid of my Temple, but decks built around spawnpoints generally need spawnpoints to succeed. Without a spawnpoint, I can have a Guardian Angel ready on turn 2 to defend me. With a spawnpoint, I might get a Guardian Angel ready to defend me on turn 3. In the type of games that I play, the difference between a turn 2 defender and a turn 3 defender can be a third of my life.
I'll take these one by one.
1.I have used books that have 6 creatures max and won countless games against good spawnpoint books. It's not a matter of replacing them persay, just getting the worth out of them before they are killed. I love it when Allandel gets focused in my SWAT pally books, he still generally got 1-2 attacks off with 1-2 stuns which was well worth it in my eyes.
2. There are a lot ways to get around guard; tanglevine, moongoose agility, sweeping strike (essentially get around guard) or just teleporting you away from your army and jinixing you so you can't really get away.
3. If as a priestess you harmonize a temple turn 1, you can deploy an angel turn 2 and cast defend on it. Sure the guard can be worked around, but that means they can only throw one attack spell that round.
4. Another priestess can use meditation amulet and harmonized temple to have essentially 15 channeling. Which is a little bit more than you have except they don't have to use their full actions to summon. Since your book isn't very aggressive, this gives them an advantage in the long run.
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The first turn is Mana Crystal and Guardian Angel. The second turn is Mana Crystal and Moonglow Amulet.
Why not switch those first two turns around? You'd be up by one mana, and even against the most aggressive book in the world, you don't need a Guardian Angel online in Round 2...
1.I have used books that have 6 creatures max and won countless games against good spawnpoint books. It's not a matter of replacing them persay, just getting the worth out of them before they are killed. I love it when Allandel gets focused in my SWAT pally books, he still generally got 1-2 attacks off with 1-2 stuns which was well worth it in my eyes.
Very much agree with this (all the other points too actually). I see an awful lot of books with what I regard as far too many creatures. Lots, even most of my books have 6-10 creatures, and do just fine. A handful have 2-3 creatures (and at least one book hopes never to cast those).
The bottom line is that you can go in with lots of creatures or few, lots of attack spells or few, and the same for everything else. The key point is whether you meld it all into a an effective playstyle, and that's mostly possible at all points along the curve.
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I think 1 or 2 psychic immune creatures would really help this book out.
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I'm with Littlenog here, a Knight of the Red Helm could help a lot. Especially with the guarding. You really don't need that many Temple High Guards. They're nice but very reliant on your opponent not knowing the counters to them.
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I'm with Littlenog here, a Knight of the Red Helm could help a lot. Especially with the guarding. You really don't need that many Temple High Guards. They're nice but very reliant on your opponent not knowing the counters to them.
Agreed, Red Helms are better here, even if they are also fairly easy to counter.
On a side note, what is your plan vs a priestess that does the same thing you do except with a temple? They will be ahead in actions and channeling and won't have to hardcast.
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Red not everyone has a plan against every "What if...." I'd imagine he'd wing it. :P
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It is easy enough to deal with a priestess that depends on a Temple. A Priestess spends 10 mana to summon the Temple, meaning that she suffers from a 10 mana deficit, and she gets only an extra mana every turn and an extra action every other turn from it. A hardcast priestess can use that 10 mana to gain +2 channeling from Mana Crystals.
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It is easy enough to deal with a priestess that depends on a Temple. A Priestess spends 10 mana to summon the Temple, meaning that she suffers from a 10 mana deficit, and she gets only an extra mana every turn and an extra action every other turn from it. A hardcast priestess can use that 10 mana to gain +2 channeling from Mana Crystals.
ONLY? That's an exponential increase in your opponent's number of actions generated per reset phase! Remember, the spawnpoint's "action" is used to summon *creatures* which generate actions of their own every reset phase to be used during the round. The longer you leave temple alone, the more of an action advantage it will get. If you want to beat the temple priestess with your strategy, the *correct* solution is to destroy the temple, not ignore it. At least if the temple user is actually playing well. If their temple is destroyed, they are already behind on actions, which means you wont need to summon quite so many creatures to kill the enemy priestess. I would recommend that you only start on the defensive phase first and summon guardian angel if opponent goes aggressive early. If they sit in their corner and start building, don't let them! Go aggressive! If you see a creature spawnpoint round 2, summon knight of westlock. And make sure to cast both your crystals round 1.
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Never have had much a challenge from anyone using a spawnpoint since I stopped using one (with the exception of the Necromancer with the book, which has to be the best spawnpoint in the game). I will generally have creature superiority by turn one and mana superiority by turn two.
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Never have had much a challenge from anyone using a spawnpoint since I stopped using one (with the exception of the Necromancer with the book, which has to be the best spawnpoint in the game). I will generally have creature superiority by turn one and mana superiority by turn two.
What makes you think libro is the best spawnpoint? Because it can only be destroyed by dissolve/explode?
Your book is not very fast though. The Mana and action advantage doesn't seem to particularly matter. My paladin for example can have a fully healed ehren, cassiel, knight of westlock, angel, and a buffed mage by turn 6. Except that as long as my temple is alive I will always have action advantage.
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My paladin for example can have a fully healed ehren, cassiel, knight of westlock, angel, and a buffed mage by turn 6. Except that as long as my temple is alive I will always have action advantage.
Presumably you have thrown a Harmonise down on the Temple to do that. If not, the Temple will not give you an action advantage since you'll have to use a Cleric's action to allow the Temple's action.
I think I'm with Obsidian on this one.
A Double Crystal turn 1, followed by hard cast every turn would give 5 fairly beefy creatures during turn 6 (let's say a pair of Knights of Westlock, a temple high guard, a guardian angel and a highland unicorn), with a few mana spare for a couple of little pieces of equipment or enchantments on the mage or the creatures.
I would have one more creature than you, and I'd wager the above set of five(+mage) against your suggested four(+mage) most days of the week.
Additionally, if you spend some of that spare change mana on a push or teleport, the mobile spawn point that is the Mage moves as well, whereas the temple is static. So my creatures are possibly better placed than yours.
All theoretical, of course, but I have always found the Temple of Asyra to be quite a weak spawnpoint due to the costs involved (in actions and mana) to get it working effectively.
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Yes, I agree. I would much rather have something like Libro, which is mobile, or the Lair, which can produce every turn, than the Temple.
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My paladin for example can have a fully healed ehren, cassiel, knight of westlock, angel, and a buffed mage by turn 6. Except that as long as my temple is alive I will always have action advantage.
Presumably you have thrown a Harmonise down on the Temple to do that. If not, the Temple will not give you an action advantage since you'll have to use a Cleric's action to allow the Temple's action.
I think I'm with Obsidian on this one.
A Double Crystal turn 1, followed by hard cast every turn would give 5 fairly beefy creatures during turn 6 (let's say a pair of Knights of Westlock, a temple high guard, a guardian angel and a highland unicorn), with a few mana spare for a couple of little pieces of equipment or enchantments on the mage or the creatures.
I would have one more creature than you, and I'd wager the above set of five(+mage) against your suggested four(+mage) most days of the week.
Additionally, if you spend some of that spare change mana on a push or teleport, the mobile spawn point that is the Mage moves as well, whereas the temple is static. So my creatures are possibly better placed than yours.
All theoretical, of course, but I have always found the Temple of Asyra to be quite a weak spawnpoint due to the costs involved (in actions and mana) to get it working effectively.
And im not sold on it.
If i change Obsidians Spellbook a bit:
Remove the 2 Mana Crystals and the Moonglow Amulet, replace with Temple of Asyra and Asyran Cleric + Meditation Amulet.
Rather than having 13 channeling i would have 10+3+1+1. With the hardcasting Priestess not being able to move i cant see how she can take out the temple. Or take out anything early on actually.
Vs an aggro player the hardcasting might be better, but likely not vs a turtle like herself.
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Oh right forgot about that lol.
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Meditation Amulets require full actions to use, so I do not particularly see how that is much better, since you are not moving while you generate mana. It is also quite a target for a Dissolve if they see you using it each turn. Anyway, you are still having to stay in the back with your Temple since you are not summoning creatures with your Mage, and Priestesses lose if they turtle (something silverclawgrizzly taught me during our first few months of playing).
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Meditation Amulets require full actions to use, so I do not particularly see how that is much better, since you are not moving while you generate mana. It is also quite a target for a Dissolve if they see you using it each turn. Anyway, you are still having to stay in the back with your Temple since you are not summoning creatures with your Mage, and Priestesses lose if they turtle (something silverclawgrizzly taught me during our first few months of playing).
I think Biblo's point is with med amulet and temple, you have better action economy and mana generation.
You likely won't dissolve it until at least round 7 since you want to hardcast.
How do Priestesses lose if they turtle? I don't follow the logic here?
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Priestesses lose if they turtle (something silverclawgrizzly taught me during our first few months of playing).
No they don't.
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Silverclawgrizzly neither endorses nor rejects the notion of turtle priestess losing. Let us amend that to: Priestess loses when fighting my Straywood :)
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Silverclawgrizzly neither endorses nor rejects the notion of turtle priestess losing. Let us amend that to: Priestess loses when fighting my Straywood :)
Also, no they don’t.
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Meditation Amulets require full actions to use, so I do not particularly see how that is much better, since you are not moving while you generate mana. It is also quite a target for a Dissolve if they see you using it each turn. Anyway, you are still having to stay in the back with your Temple since you are not summoning creatures with your Mage, and Priestesses lose if they turtle (something silverclawgrizzly taught me during our first few months of playing).
Well you can´t dissolve the Meditation Amulet when your stuck in your starting corner and your opponent stays in her starting corner.
So Meditation Amulet and Temple seems to be +2 mana vs your book.
Also imagine going with Temple + Asyrian Cleric and a Mana Crystal. (or an extra cleric)
Now mana is the same, but she has +1 action.
I don´t think your doing real well vs other mages with a spawnpoint and a stronger/larger army.
Wizard, Druid, Necromancer, Warlords and Beastmasters comes to mind.
All of these could have better economy and more actions than you.
Quote from: Obsidian Soul on January 13, 2018, 06:39:50 PM
"It is easy enough to deal with a priestess that depends on a Temple. A Priestess spends 10 mana to summon the Temple, meaning that she suffers from a 10 mana deficit, and she gets only an extra mana every turn and an extra action every other turn from it. A hardcast priestess can use that 10 mana to gain +2 channeling from Mana Crystals."
This is what i disagree with. You seem to be arguing that its easy to deal with a Temple Priestess. I don´t think so. Especial not if you won´t be able to launch an attack on her before turn 10 or so.
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I agree here. There seems to be an idea that an agressive book will beat a "base builder" priestess. Any good priestess book will drop angels, armour, and other defenses that will blunt an attack when it comes. At the earliest a book will attack at turn 3-4 as you have to get to my side of the board. In that time I can ancipate such from your opening. If your coming to me then I'd rather drop a forge and crystals, get to 13c and drop an angel and brace etc. The longer you leave a temple build the stronger it gets. It may be seen as slow but it is a turtle, armoured and it wins a slower race.
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My paladin for example can have a fully healed ehren, cassiel, knight of westlock, angel, and a buffed mage by turn 6. Except that as long as my temple is alive I will always have action advantage.
Presumably you have thrown a Harmonise down on the Temple to do that. If not, the Temple will not give you an action advantage since you'll have to use a Cleric's action to allow the Temple's action.
I think I'm with Obsidian on this one.
A Double Crystal turn 1, followed by hard cast every turn would give 5 fairly beefy creatures during turn 6 (let's say a pair of Knights of Westlock, a temple high guard, a guardian angel and a highland unicorn), with a few mana spare for a couple of little pieces of equipment or enchantments on the mage or the creatures.
I would have one more creature than you, and I'd wager the above set of five(+mage) against your suggested four(+mage) most days of the week.
Additionally, if you spend some of that spare change mana on a push or teleport, the mobile spawn point that is the Mage moves as well, whereas the temple is static. So my creatures are possibly better placed than yours.
All theoretical, of course, but I have always found the Temple of Asyra to be quite a weak spawnpoint due to the costs involved (in actions and mana) to get it working effectively.
I honestly think that people underestimate the temple fair too often.
I have tried harmonizing a temple and I have never found it worth it, it is too much investment for me.
The whole notion that you lose action advantage if you use clerics to pray I just don't understand. Asyran Clerics are extremely versatile and I can say after 6+ months of paladin experience that they are well worth it in every game. Even against super aggro books, they aren't a terrible choice.
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Yeah I hear ya Red. I've been doing 3-5 asyran cleric temple Priest for years and it takes people by surprise quite a bit. the 1 armor and 6 life is surprising just out of reach for instant kill and usually people don't bother wasting actions killing them. That turns into free healing or damage every round. That being said I am not a fan of temple turn 1 or Harmonize.