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Author Topic: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes  (Read 39014 times)

Shad0w

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2013, 03:09:03 PM »
It makes sense to the people who already understand it.  :lol:
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reddawn

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2013, 04:14:25 PM »
The mages as I see them in relation to these terms:

Warlock: Definitely Aggro-Control.  He is rewarded for using curses (control enchants) over buffing enchants, and his Bloodreaper ability makes his demons very cost-effective.  Sure, it costs life, but aggro strategies are known for sacrificing resources to gain immediate advantage.  Aggro strategies don't care about their own life total, only that the opponent dies before they do.  The warlock also has the highest base life and a melee skill, so he can stay on the enemy mage without needing to retreat much.

Priestess:  Appears to be control or maybe midrange-control.  She is rewarded for preserving her resources in order to gain a long-term board and mana advantage, after which she can drop haymaker Angels that are simply more powerful than most creatures and are difficult to interact with due to flying.  She also has access to the best defensive creatures in the game with which to guard her conjurations, the Knight of Westlock, and an Angel that punishes your opponent for destroying your clerics (mana batteries resources with some utility).  Gray Angels are particularly midrange-control-y; they're decent beaters in the midgame with an emphasis on preserving other units and resources once they have outlived their usefulness.  She also has access to the most efficient dazing spells, letting her get the action advantage over other mages for very little cost.

Wizard: Not sure the Wizard falls easily into a particular category, but I'd probably say control also.  The elemental school choice varies, but arcane does not, and a majority of arcane spells focus on manipulating your opponent's resources while increasing your own.  Additionally, most arcane creatures are rather expensive and have powerful full-action attacks, but poor quick-action attacks, and are also Slow so they can't really make good use of quick actions anyway.  They also have regenerate, which rewards zone-specific controlling play and makes it hard to engage them at range effectively over the course of the game.  Gate of Voltari also rewards this strategy.

Beastmaster:  Aggro-combo for sure.  Combo in MW doesn't carry the same kind of undertones as combo in MTG does though...you still have to win through combat, regardless if you stack enchantment after enchantment on a large fatty creature, or horde a bunch of smaller creatures and then use a Call of the Wild or two.  The Beastmaster doesn't really have much in the way of controlling cards, and even the ones he can use effectively, like Tanglevine, reward you more for using them against guards than to control creatures.  


These aren't meant to be strict interpretations of how each mage MUST play to be effective--on the contrary, I've been on the receiving end of some innovative aggressive tactics from the Wizard and Priestess.  That's the great thing about this game; if you want to play a very aggressive Priestess or Wizard, or a very controlling Warlock or Beastmaster, it's certainly possible and effective if you time it right.  I do however think that, in the above roles, each mage is an expert and will more often succeed from those lines of play.

So, to summarize:

Warlock: Aggro-Control

Beastmaster: Aggro-Combo

Priestess: Control, or Midrange-Control

Wizard: Mainly control, varying somewhat depending on your element choice
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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2013, 07:28:55 AM »
I think all Mages can be on a varying scale from aggressiveness to controling.
And in general sense, each Mage also has their own unique synergy focuses.

Scale:
Most Aggressive

Beastmaster - Combining Buffs on particular Creatures
Forcemaster - Assassination with Galvitor and Defenses
Warlock - Hulk up some equipment and burn with a demon
Warlord - build a fortress of walls and traps to shoot from
Wizard - Mana denial + Wand Combos, teleporting Hydras
Priestess - Priests and temples into Angels plus Healing.

Most Controling

I would claim  the scale shows the duration the mage wants the game to be
The beastmaster wants the quickest battle, the priestess the longest battle.

reddawn

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2013, 10:42:17 AM »
My scale would look like this, separating the Mages into two classes, then ranking them in terms of that scale from most aggressive to most controlling in their class


Brute
1-Warlock
2-Beastmaster
3-Warlord

Control
1-Forcemaster
2-Wizard
3-Priestess

Mages in the Brute class are defined by lower channeling and higher life.  This makes them naturally more aggressive, because they can leverage their higher life best earlier in the game when there is little mana between them and their opponents.  They lose that advantage as the game continues on and each mage has access to more and more mana and spells.  They all have a melee skill too and will win in an early slugfest against the non-brute mages.

Mages in the Control class are defined by higher channeling and lower life.  They can't win in a battle of strength against the Brute mages without more spells to help them, and thus must rely on their higher channeling to supply that advantage over time, where their better access to mana will eventually overwhelm their opponents.  

Spawnpoints are a good "at a glance" way of figuring out which mages are the most controlling/aggressive in their respective class, because it lets you see how easy it is for them to generate a late-game advantage without any other kind of investment.  Another good indication is a mage's ease of access to early haymaker-style creatures, since those creatures give the best value for your mana when you have a lot of it (i.e., at the beginning or end of the game).

For example, if we look at the Brute class, the Warlock's Pentagram still only generates extra mana if he or his friendly creatures are attacking, so to make use of this mana/action generating conjuration, he still needs to remain aggressive early on.  He also has the easiest access to Adramelech, Lord of Fire, who is pretty much the most expensive, aggressive creature in the game.  He has another great aggressive opening in Goran and a Dark Pact Slayer.

The Beastmaster's Lair is the most expensive conjuration in the game, as much as 3 mana crystals, yet only channels 2, so it's very much the middle-of-the-road spawnpoint out of the 3 Brute mages.  Beastmasters have access to Pet Steelclaw Grizzlies, which come pretty close to matching Adramelech in power, but lack the Flying that helps Adramelech go straight for the opposing mage without having to worry about ground attacks that might Hinder him.

The Warlord's  Barracks can channel 3 mana with an overall investment of 20 mana, without him having to be aggressive at all.  This is allows him to have the best late-game mana of the 3 Brute mages.  Warlords are a bit different in how they handle aggression.  Against Control class mages,  they boast Sir Corazin, Blademaster, who has the Sweeping and Doublestrike needed to get past defenses and guards, but who can still defend the Warlord well enough with his 2 very good defenses.  The exception is against the Forcemaster, which demands an Iron Golem.

Against other Brute class mages who summon Adramelech or Grizzles or other "bombs," the Warlord needs Thorg, Chief Bodyguard, who is the most powerful defensive creature in the game.  Thorg swings for a good amount of dice on the attack, but he really shines on guard where he can swing for a massive ten dice and block even some piercing dice with his 4 armor.  He can even ground massive fliers like Adramelech or Selesius with his taunt ability.  Thorg can buy the Warlord time to muster enough mana to mount an effective counter-assault later on against the more mana-starved Brute mages like the Warlock and Beastmaster.

For the Control class, the Forcemaster is certainly the most aggressive.  While she has familiars that generate mana, she doesn't actually have a spawnpoint, and can't really compete in a late-game war of mana against most other mages due to how squishy her flying brain-pets are.  This is pretty much the reason why Force Hammer deals extra damage to corporeal conjurations; it allows her to combat mid/late-game spawnpoint builds efficiently and prevent other mages from building up too much of a mana advantage.  She also easily has the most aggressive weapon of all the Control class mages, Galvitar, capable of swinging 8 dice, or quick attacking with piercing damage, and a defense that combats the fact that she only has 32 health.  Given that this defense costs 1 mana per use, she pretty much effectively has as much channeling as the Brute mages when in combat.  

Forcemasters also have the Invisible Stalker, which is probably the best fatty creature any Control class mages have access to.  It's very tenacious and difficult to interact with and swings for a lot of quick-attack dice.

The Wizard is the more middling of the Control mages.  He doesn't have the powerful aggressive equipment that the Forcemaster does, or the natural defense, but he does have a damage shield that helps him out when he needs to fire off some attack spells.  He also has access to the Darkfenne Hydra which can really lay on some dice, but is more naturally defensive due to its slow and regenerate traits and will likely be guarding your mana conjurations more than chasing the enemy mage (though it can be pretty aggressive if you give it some Cheetah Speed).

That said, his Arcane Ring also lets him build up mana more efficient than the Forcemaster.  His spawnpoint can also reliably get 1-2 extra mana per turn, so it's similar in effectiveness to the Beastmaster's.  Additionally, most if not all Arcane spells are late-game or defense focused, with an emphasis on draining mana in one way or another.

Finally we come to the Priestess, the most controlling mage in the game.  She has access to the most efficient Daze/Stun spells, which really help her out when on the defensive.  It helps her negate her opponent's actions while she builds up mana and defenses.  Her spawn costs 20 and channels 3 mana at full capacity and her Asyran Clerics operate as both mana-batteries and help aid defenders when need be.  She also has a lot of very powerful legendary angels that she can field in the late game that no mage can really stand up against if they give her time to fuel her mana.
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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2013, 08:34:50 PM »
Hey shad0w, could you please include Recent design philosophy in your first post? (you dont have to obviously)

Recent design philosophy is; Midrange,Ramp,Disruptive Aggro,Ramp and Combo

"Midrange" has the advantage over "Aggro"
"Ramp and Combo" is advantaged over "Midrange"
"Control and Disruptive Aggro" is advantaged over "Ramp and Combo"
"Aggro" is advantaged over "Control and Disruptive Aggro"

I believe a Disruptive Aggro and Midrange mention really belong here, as it is very predominate is Mage Wars.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
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it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
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Shad0w

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2013, 08:02:51 AM »
I can but I have not had time been a bit busy at work.
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2013, 08:28:08 AM »
Cool, thx. I believe that "modern" design philosophy has a place in MW.
Ramp could even be related to temples, and mana crystals/flowers.

Midrange REALLY has a place here.

Disruptive aggro is a great strategy for a aggressive "solo" mage(BURN THEM OUTPOST AND TEMPLES!)

Like I said, its not like you have too,(Its your post!) But I think these are often forgotten for the more "Classic philosophys" and thought I might say something about it.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

Shad0w

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2013, 09:46:53 AM »
They go hand in hand. The development of more midrange style of play has been on the rise for several years now. ;)
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reddawn

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 03:49:21 AM »
(random thought)

After playing MW for a while, I think it's a mistake to think of MW in terms of traditional competitive gaming terms (well, more like just MTG terms) like "rush" as aggro, or "slow" as control, and then proceed to play how you would in most other games. 

In MW, the mage you play determines the competitive viability of the strategy you can use.  Could you play Beastmaster or Warlock control?  I guess so...but is it as good as Priestess or Wizard control? No.  It's just a fact that the holy and arcane schools have cards more geared towards control and defense than aggro, just like the Dark and Fire schools have cards that are more geared towards aggro rather than control. 

It's similar to the Magic colors and how they tend to specialize in certain things.  You could play a black and blue aggro deck, but there's a very good chance it wouldn't be nearly as competitive as a white and red aggro deck, just like a red and white control deck wouldn't typically be as good as a black and blue control deck.  Now, over the course of that game's lifespan things have changed to sometimes allow colors to do things contrary to what they represent, but the general rule still stands.

This doesn't mean you can't make some room for a surprise here and there, but if you plan on making the best book you can, it's a much better idea to stick to the strategy that your particular mage is especially good at.  Maybe after MW grows a bit we'll start seeing significantly different kinds of builds for each mage, but I actually like how the spellbook system is restrictive.  The schools of magic in MW would start to feel really samey if they began to homogenize everyone's access to particular effects and cards...
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2013, 02:15:45 PM »
I think it might be a mistake to say that control is always a defensive strategy, or that aggro is always offensive. While that is true in a CCG, Mage wars is more of a Minis game. I read a warmachine article relatively recently that said that there are six different playstyles, three offensive and three defensive.

Offensive: alpha strike (like aggro; strike first and hard at your opponents forces, crippling key models), assasination (like combo; the enemy warcaster/warlock is your only target) and domination (like control, rely on superior fire power to completely destroy enemy forces)

Defensive: attrition (sort of like aggro; taking hits better than opponent and eventually overcoming them through numbers/toughness), terrain/movement control (like control, a bit self explanatory), and denial (like combo, preventing your opponent from using their best models and striking their soft underbelly).

http://steam-poweredgamer.blogspot.com/2011/11/list.html?m=1

So what does this mean for Mage Wars? Well, I'm thinking a lot of these playstyle/strategies need to delve into other playstyle/strategies as a backup plan against certain matchups in order to be competitive. There are also hybrid strategies. Example: one good idea for a hybrid playstyle would be to combine Denial with assasination. Prevent your opponent from using some of their important cards, and then strike at their mage while they are vulnerable. Or you can try a Terrain/movement control and assasination strategy, physically separating the enemy mage from their forces. There's probably a ton of potential different hybrid playstyles.

As for whether you need all six playstyles to be supported relatively equally for a balanced game...I'm not entirely sure. Someone would have to come up with an accurate metagame clock. I imagine it probably is very complicated, especially when we start talking about hybrid playstyle/strategies. Here is all that I've guessed so far:

This extremely incomplete clock is for when both players are completely entirely equal in both spellbook building and playing skill.

Attrition = Domination (unstoppable force meets immovable object)

Yeah, I have no idea where to go from here. I imagine that most good spellbooks are either hybrid or have a backup plan for dealing with certain playstyle/strategies, which means that perhaps no one is purely going for just one of these playstyle/strategies in a competitive build.

Of course this is just a theory; for all I know, it could be way off the mark when applied to Mage Wars.

What do you think?
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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2013, 06:10:32 PM »
relating strategy from table top games does more closely relate to MW then pure card games. it still has a resource management component (mana) that most table top wargames dont have (I haven't played all so forgive me if wrong).

if we assume mage wars also has its own form of "6 category's" I would suggest when you play to pick 1 based on your mage and play style to be your plan a. then go down to plan b,c etc depending on how flexible you are. using spells that can be used in multiple plans increases your book efficiency. eg agony can be used for "attrition", "control" and agro
Being Aussie we place all our cards face down, apart from enchantments which are face up

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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2013, 09:19:37 AM »
I thought about it, and I realized that it might not make sense for attrition and domination to be equal. It seems right on the surface, but I realized that perhaps attrition has the advantage at least partially because of that seeming equality. I am going to go back to the much simpler mechanics of CCG's like Yugioh to help explain this phenomenon. Not MtG, since in MtG you can summon unlimited creatures in a turn if you have the mana to pay for it. While it is vastly different from Mage Wars, Yugioh has more of a limit on summoning then MtG, which falls more in line with summoning being a full action and sometimes a quick action, or an extra action if you have spawnpoints etc. Even though Yugioh has unlimited special summoning, since a yugioh player has only 5 zones that they can put one creature each in, I think the analogy will work for my purposes.

You see, since Attrition is essentially Defensive aggro, that means that the attrition mage wants to summon a lot, so they can get a sizable number of defensive creatures into the arena. In Yugioh, if an attacking creature's attack is equal to the attacked creature's defense, no creatures are destroyed. Even though they were "equal", the offensive creature failed to destroy anything, and the defensive creature succeeded in holding off the attack. 

In Mage Wars, it's a similar thing. Disregarding special abilities, a creature with 0 armor and 3 health is going to, on average, survive against the attack of a creature with 3 attack dice, with 1 health remaining. Now add in a defense, or some natural armor.

Since Domination is offensive control, it's going to want to power up its creatures to go on a rampage that's difficult or hard to stop. But it can take a while to gather that kind of firepower, meanwhile the Attrition player is summoning defensive creature after defensive creature, more creatures than the Domination player can attack and destroy. Then eventually, even though they are defensive creatures, there will be enough of them to swarm the Domination mage before he or she's had the chance to finish setting up for his or her all out assault.

In essence, I am hypothesizing this metagame clock for Mage Wars, as well as potentially other minis games:

Alpha strike (offensive aggro)>Terrain/movement control (defensive control)>Assassination (offensive combo)>attrition (defensive aggro)>domination (offensive control)>Denial (defensive combo)>Alpha strike...

Alpha strike=Attrition
Terrain/movement control=Domination
Assasination=Denial

Also, on the subject of hybrid builds... I think there are two main types of hybrid builds: those that switch between strategies and those that combine strategies into one. I imagine that an example of a "switching" build would be Alpha strike&attrition. If the Alpha strike fails, attrition is the backup plan. And I think an example of a "combining" build would be Terrain/movement control&Assasination. You control the field with the aim of separating the opponent's Mage from his or her forces so that you can deal the killing blow. Rather than an initial plan and a backup plan, they function as one strategy.

I don't think my hypothesis can really be properly tested until we have a larger competitive community, of course. But what do you think of all this?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:28:15 AM by Imaginator »
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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2013, 01:28:07 PM »
I'm not sure about your matchup analysis, but I can see those terms being more useful than aggro and control for talking about MW strategies.

Also, on an average result, a 3 health creature with no armor dies to a 3 dice attack. There is a pretty decent probability that they'll survive, but the expectation value of the damage is 3.
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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2013, 02:38:56 PM »
Oh, oops. You're right, I miscalculated. Thx for poining that out, it makes my hypothesis a little more consistent, since alpha strike being equally matched to attrition wouldn't make sense if the defensive creatures had that kind of advantage.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 02:45:48 PM by Imaginator »
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Re: Aggro, Combo, Control & Hybrid Archtypes
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2013, 09:26:06 PM »
I am probably not qualified to comment on this, only having played a little bit of Magic and a little bit of Mage Wars, both only casually. I've never competed in tournaments, and am just beginning to grasp the concepts and jargon that you all take for granted (by reading these forums in an attempt to improve). However, I thought I would give my two cents.

Everybody seems to be trying to take concepts from other games (Magic, Wargaming, etc) and applying them to Mage Wars. I can understand how that would be useful. No need to reinvent the wheel if you have something that works, and using something people are familiar with will help to familiarize them with this game. With that said though, Mage Wars is it's own game and needs to be looked at on it's own merits.

First Rule of Mage Wars
When you break the game down, to it's simplest level, Mage Wars is a damage race. In a race there is only one way to win, and that is by being faster than your opponent. There are then only two ways to accomplish this:

Tactic 1: Increasing your own pace by maximizing your damage output.
Tactic 2: Reducing your opponent's pace by minimizing their damage output.

These two tactics are thus defined by how you manage your relative pace to your opponent's. We can then define an overall strategy based upon how focused it is on one tactic over the other.

Strategy 1: This build focuses primarily on Tactic 1. She loads her Spellbook with the most damaging, aggressive spells she can find and attempts to kill her opponent as fast as possible. Favors short games.

Strategy 2: This build also focuses primarily on Tactic 1 but has a strong amount of Tactic 2 present. While still loading on the most damaging and aggressive spells he can find, he also includes spells to disrupt his opponent. He favors spells that produce immediate results rather than long term gains. Things like Banish and Turn to Stone.

Strategy 3: This build focuses equally on both Tactic 1 and Tactic 2. She favors versatility. Trying to outlast Strategies 1 and 2, while trying to out damage Strategies 4 and 5. She has to know how and when to switch gears.

Strategy 4: This build focuses primarily on Tactic 2 but has a strong amount of Tactic 1 present. He tends to dance around his opponent for the majority of the game, gaining an advantage over time until the opponent is within the danger zone. He then unloads a huge burst, winning with a glorious finale.

Strategy 5: This build focuses primarily on Tactic 2. She loads her Spellbook with an answer to every possible threat and ensures her foe is effectively neutered. She then wins by a war of attrition. With her opponent unable to fight back, victory is just a matter of time. Favors long games.

Calling a Spade a Spade
Up until this point I've purposefully been very generic because I want people to examine the concepts on Mage War's terms rather than applying preconcieved notions from other games. Eventually though, we should apply names to the concepts we are talking about, and I have thus done so below. The terms I've used do appear in other similar games, but they are not meant to be a direct correlation to other games.

I believe they are similar enough so that people already familiar with other games that use them will still recognize them, but they are being used to describe concepts inherent to Mage Wars. They are not meant to apply concepts from other games to Mage Wars.

Tactic 1 = Aggro
Tactic 2 = Control

Strategy 1 = Aggro
Strategy 2 = Disruptive Aggro
Strategy 3 = Mid Ranged
Strategy 4 = Ramp
Strategy 5 = Control

Why Combo has no place in Mage Wars
Don't misread that. Card combos of course will have a place in Mage Wars of great significance. What I'm talking about though is using Card Combos as a build archetype. First off, I believe Mage Wars should remain true to it's nature as a damage race between two opposing mages. I do not support any idea of putting cards in rotation that automatically win you the game, so we can eliminate that from being a build option.

That leaves combos that affect the current nature of the game, the damage race, which means a Combo would have to focus on either Tactic 1 or Tactic 2, Aggro or Control. Thus even if the combo is the cornerstone of your build, and wins you lots of games, I would argue that your build would still fit within one of the five archetypes I've laid out rather than needing it's own "Combo" archetype.