Reverse Magic and timing with Enchantments

[WTFGamer]

I started a thread over at BGG and thought I'd go straight to the source. I searched the forum and couldn't find the question. Apologies if it has been answered and I missed it. http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10257602#10257602

When is an enchantment considered to be targeting? Is it when the matrix is completed?

Does Reverse Magic take effect when the target is first targeted and the blind enchantment goes down, or when the enchantment is revealed and the matrix becomes complete. If it's before, does the reverse spell caster pay for both reveals?

It seems to me this spell should trigger after the reveal once the matrix is complete. But the wording says "targeted" and I can see that being interpreted either way.

See page 23 of the rule book: "At this point, it is not fully formed and exists only as a magical potential, with no effect on the battle. When the spell is revealed later, the caster "completes" the spell by adding additional power. It is only then that the enchantment takes form and can affect the target."

I've got to admit, I'm impressed this is one of the few parts of the otherwise super-clear rule set where some question has been raised in my mind.

Several people in the BGG thread think it's got to be during the initial cast period that Reverse Magic pops. The biggest support for that claim is on the card itself. You must reveal Reverse Magic during the Counter Spell Step.

The only problem I see with that is how enchantments work and the costs involved. If we go with the idea Reverse Magic must take effect immediately upon being targeted with an enchantment then this becomes the chain:

1)I pay 2 mana to target my mage with Reverse Magic and it's placed face down.

2)An enemy mage targets my mage with an enchantment and pays 2 mana.

3)My Reverse Magic trigger goes off and I must flip it and pay 5 mana.

(Here's where things get wonky)

4)I gain control of the enchantment and look at it to find out what the heck it is.

5)I now target the mage who cast the enchantment with something he already knows is coming.

6)If i want to complete the matrix, I must pay the cost on top of the 5 mana I spent to reverse the potential spell. If I don't have the mana, my enemy now has time to counter the spell because the effect isn't a surprise to anyone anymore.

My preferred (and most likely wrong) method would be completing the matrix creates a new set of cast, counter, and resolve steps once the enchantment is revealed, mana is paid, and the matrix of spell potential is completed.

I'm cool if that's the way it goes down, but it makes reverse magic a pretty pricey card to reverse an enchantment with. I lost 5+ mana while my enemy got out of it for 2 mana and a likely chance to counter. This doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the spell which should be bad for him and way good for me. At a 5 mana cost, Reverse Magic, Reverse Attack and Reverse Attack are the most expensive Enchantments in the game.

Thoughts? :pinch:

[Shad0w]

Enchantments
are always played facedown, and remain hidden from your opponent until you choose to reveal them. You can decide that you would like to reveal the enchantment so that it has an effect on the game right away. You declare that you are is revealing it, flip it face up, and pays the reveal cost

When Can You Reveal?
You can reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event in the game:

• At the end of any Phase of the game round.

• Immediately after a creature is activated, before it chooses its actions for the turn

• Immediately after a creature completes its move action, but before it takes a quick action.

• At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or three steps of casting a spell.

• You can reveal an enchantment immediately after it is cast, right after the Resolve Spell Step. When an enchantment is “resolved” it is placed face down as a hidden enchantment. Then, immediately after it has resolved, you may choose to reveal it at the end of that Step.

• You cannot interrupt an event to reveal an enchantment.

So lets brake it down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 1: Cast Spell
Announce that you are casting a spell and what the target will be.

You may only choose a target that matches the target requirements listed in the casting line.

Some spells will target a zone on the game board. Other spells will target
a single object.

Pay the cost(s) of the spell

Step 2: Counter Spell
Once the spell has been cast, your opponent has a chance to “counter” it. Normally, there is nothing your opponent can do, and the spell simply takes effect.

However, some spells and abilities, such as the Nullify enchantment, may allow him to counter your spell.

When a spell is countered it is discarded without effect, and you lose the mana spent and any action used to cast the spell (unless the spell or ability which counters says otherwise).

Step 3: Resolve Spell
At this point, the spell takes effect.

The spell type (e.g., conjuration) and the text on the spell card determine the effects of the spell. If you have cast an attack spell, you must now resolve the attack.

When a spell resolves, if you find that the target of the spell is no longer valid (has moved or changed), then the spell is countered.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A spell is not "cast" until step 1 is completed. The spell does not affect the game until step 3 when the spell resolves.

I hope the helps.

[WTFGamer]

An example of play would be greatly appreciated.

One mage has the Reverse Magic Enchantment. Another casts Force Hold on him.

When does the mage with Reverse Magic gain control of the Force Hold and how much mana does it cost to attach it to the mage who cast it.

Thanks!

[Arcanus]

Okay, good example.  

1. The enemy mage pays 2 mana and casts Force Hold face down.  
2. You reveal Reverse Magic, pay 5 mana, and then gain control of Force Hold.  
3. You attach Force Hold on the enemy Mage.  This does not cost you any mana, the casting cost has already been paid by your opponent.
4. You can now flip and reveal Force Hold, if you wish, which costs you another 2 mana.

Reverse Magic is pricey when working against enchantments.  In some cases, stopping and reversing their action is a terrible surprise that is worth that cost. You can, of course, choose to not pay the reveal cost when it is revealed, which will just cancel and destroy Reverse Magic without effect.

Reverse Magic is particularly effective against incantations.  

Reverse attack can be expensive, especially if attacked by a weak attack.  However, reversing an 8 mana Fireball is awesome!

[Shad0w]

Arcanus thanks for stepping in before I had to run home and look over my cards. Nice example BTW

[WTFGamer]

Awesome. Thanks guys. I feel much better when I know I'm playing the proper way.  :woohoo:

[Shad0w]

It is NP we are here to help.