Grey Wraith, should it recieve undead subtype?

[Robintheboywonder]

Before I post some points about the topic I want to keep it as a simple question and let others weigh in first. With the addition of 2 other spirit cards, should grey Wraith gain the undead subtype to match his ghostly brothers or is he fine where he is as the only dark nonliving creature who isnt undead?

[DaveW]

Before I post some points about the topic I want to keep it as a simple question and let others weigh in first. With the addition of 2 other spirit cards, should grey Wraith gain the undead subtype to match his ghostly brothers or is he fine where he is as the only dark nonliving creature who isnt undead?

Should it be? Other than saying that it doesn't matter because it won't get changed... I'd offer my opinion that it probably should. Personally, I don't get how a Ravenous Ghoul should be Undead and the Grey Wraith should not be... especially as other Spirits also are Undead, as you note.

I am fine with other Dark Creatures not being Living while not being Undead... I could imagine a few anyway... but this is just one of those wonderful things that makes the game feel disjointed to me.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but you should get used to it. There is not going to be any official change.

[Coshade]

should grey Wraith gain the undead subtype

Probably

[jacksmack]

Libro and graveyard was released in the same set.
They have different wordings, and I guess there’s some thought behind that.
I believe the wraith is currently the only creature that the libro cannot cast that the graveyard can.

[wtcannonjr]

I am fine with the current distinction.

I think of the terms 'undead' and 'spirit' as two different types of sub-traits. 'Undead' is assigned when a creature is magically manipulated after death. i.e. a creature must have already been dead before it can become 'undead'. While a 'spirit' can exist in either living, non-living or undead form.

So each term is describing a distinct point of a creature's possible existence along some larger life & death cycle. So, using this logic we would see that all undead creatures should also be considered non-living but it is possible to have a creature who exists in a non-living form (and thus not affected by living forms of magic) but who are not undead in nature.

[iNano78]

Thematically, I always figured "undead" referred to a reanimated corporeal non-living being, whereas a spirit doesn't get the "undead" subtype since it isn't a reanimated corporeal being. So I'd argue the other spirits should be stripped of their "undead" subtype rather than giving it to the Wraith.
(In this game, Ravenous Ghoul is more of a zombie than a ghost, so I don't mind it having "undead" subtype despite being named a "Ghoul")

[Beldin]

This is a discussion about shutting the door after the horse has bolted, and I will add those hinges are rusted in position from the amount of time it has been.

This is the same as asking why are attack dice called attack dice and not action dice. It is a part of the game, that for better or worse, is not going to change.

[iNano78]

I don't think anybody here expects a formal reprint with official errata to change some Spirit creature subtypes to/from "undead". I think it's more a thematic question of "What does it mean to be 'undead' in the Mage Wars universe?"

Illusions, elemental spirits (like Whirling Spirit), the Imperial Stalker, etc, would seem to be non-living incorporeal  (or not actually incorporeal, in the case of Academy illusions) creatures that were never Living. Is "undead" simply a non-living creature that was at one previous time living? If so, then Grey Wraith would likely qualify, as do the other new Spirit "undead" creatures. Or does "undead" require being a corporeal construct of the remains of formerly living creatures, like a zombie, mummy or skeleton, in which case the Grey Wraith would not qualify (it can effectively walk through walls after all), although then it would stand to reason that the new nonliving Spirits ought not to be "undead" either - e.g. a creature would be disqualified from being "undead" if it is incorporeal.

[wtcannonjr]

I don't think anybody here expects a formal reprint with official errata to change some Spirit creature subtypes to/from "undead". I think it's more a thematic question of "What does it mean to be 'undead' in the Mage Wars universe?"

Illusions, elemental spirits (like Whirling Spirit), the Imperial Stalker, etc, would seem to be non-living incorporeal  (or not actually incorporeal, in the case of Academy illusions) creatures that were never Living. Is "undead" simply a non-living creature that was at one previous time living? If so, then Grey Wraith would likely qualify, as do the other new Spirit "undead" creatures. Or does "undead" require being a corporeal construct of the remains of formerly living creatures, like a zombie, mummy or skeleton, in which case the Grey Wraith would not qualify (it can effectively walk through walls after all), although then it would stand to reason that the new nonliving Spirits ought not to be "undead" either - e.g. a creature would be disqualified from being "undead" if it is incorporeal.

Good questions. Why don't we consider a two by four table of possibilities. The two rows would be Corporeal and Non-Corporeal. The four columns would be Living - NonLiving - Dead - Undead. The intersections of these 'dimensions of creature forms' would be the set of possibilities in the Mage Wars Universe.

[ThisIsDeutch]

This is a discussion about shutting the door after the horse has bolted, and I will add those hinges are rusted in position from the amount of time it has been.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but you should get used to it. There is not going to be any official change.

Jesus! People relax, OP wasn't asking for a complete overhaul of Mage Wars and reprinting the card: if he wants to house-rule the card to be given the "undead" subtype then let him do it.

[DaveW]

Jesus! People relax, OP wasn't asking for a complete overhaul of Mage Wars and reprinting the card: if he wants to house-rule the card to be given the "undead" subtype then let him do it.

Krishna! Relax, the OP didn't even state what his purpose for asking was. Once he indicates whether he is concerned with tournament play or casual play, we may have a better idea what kind of answer he needs.

[wtcannonjr]

Jesus! People relax, OP wasn't asking for a complete overhaul of Mage Wars and reprinting the card: if he wants to house-rule the card to be given the "undead" subtype then let him do it.

Krishna! Relax, the OP didn't even state what his purpose for asking was. Once he indicates whether he is concerned with tournament play or casual play, we may have a better idea what kind of answer he needs.

Here is the stated purpose of the OP.

"Before I post some points about the topic I want to keep it as a simple question and let others weigh in first."

The conversation is at the stage of others weighing in with their perspective on the stated question.

[DaveW]

Jesus! People relax, OP wasn't asking for a complete overhaul of Mage Wars and reprinting the card: if he wants to house-rule the card to be given the "undead" subtype then let him do it.

Krishna! Relax, the OP didn't even state what his purpose for asking was. Once he indicates whether he is concerned with tournament play or casual play, we may have a better idea what kind of answer he needs.

Here is the stated purpose of the OP.

"Before I post some points about the topic I want to keep it as a simple question and let others weigh in first."

The conversation is at the stage of others weighing in with their perspective on the stated question.

Yes, that was the premise of my response... we are waiting for the OP to continue....

[zot]

I don't think anybody here expects a formal reprint with official errata to change some Spirit creature subtypes to/from "undead". I think it's more a thematic question of "What does it mean to be 'undead' in the Mage Wars universe?"

Illusions, elemental spirits (like Whirling Spirit), the Imperial Stalker, etc, would seem to be non-living incorporeal  (or not actually incorporeal, in the case of Academy illusions) creatures that were never Living. Is "undead" simply a non-living creature that was at one previous time living? If so, then Grey Wraith would likely qualify, as do the other new Spirit "undead" creatures. Or does "undead" require being a corporeal construct of the remains of formerly living creatures, like a zombie, mummy or skeleton, in which case the Grey Wraith would not qualify (it can effectively walk through walls after all), although then it would stand to reason that the new nonliving Spirits ought not to be "undead" either - e.g. a creature would be disqualified from being "undead" if it is incorporeal.

this post is useful in describing the various undead/non-living. I would like to add a few more for consideration.

incorporeal should not be a set no for undead status. ghosts are undead I think and are also incorporeal. illusions were mentioned. these can be incorp and not undead yet are nonliving. here is something else to ponder, and that is multiplaner beings. perhaps the wraith is a negative plane creature that has crossed boundries. it could be nonliving yet not undead. perhaps it is a force that is impacting on this plane represented as the wraith - shadow creatures if you will. further perhaps it is demonic in nature.

I am fine with some things being nonliving vs undead or both with no real delineations other than theme. sometimes the decision can come down to balance. have not looked it up, but there could be mechanic differences between nonliving and undead which includes some immunities.