THE Book.

[wtcannonjr]

How does the book in the OP deal with Terrain spells? I don't see any counter spells that can be used against a book that features this type of strategy. I suppose you could focus all your Creatures on those with the Flying trait which may help some. Still … ??

[Beldin]

Guys you realise at this point we have completely derailed the OP and are now discussing a game point that is set in stone? The SBP of mages is not going to change at this point. At best we are considering oiling the hinges of a rusted open door where the horse has bolted, died of old age, and been made into glue.

[bigfatchef]

Guys you realise at this point we have completely derailed the OP and are now discussing a game point that is set in stone? The SBP of mages is not going to change at this point. At best we are considering oiling the hinges of a rusted open door where the horse has bolted, died of old age, and been made into glue.

The mage wars ship is sunken. Everybody here in this forum is part of those few stranded on a lonely island. Only rumors appear that somebody has information that the captain is alive and on his way to get a bigger ship for us. The stone with rules set on it lies deep on the ground of the ocean. This is anarchy! 

Honestly everything that improves the game is a good thing. Everything that motivates people to play the game is good. There are threads about exactly this. Let it be needed errata, suplement or ADMW Housrules that are out and so on. I think a thread or even section about 160 or 80 sbp books is absolutely worth a try.

[Enti]

Solution : reduce the number of starting SBP's to 100. ( or less ) to make those out-of-training staple spells too costly to maintain and thus force Mages to look for alternatives in-school.

Beautiful idea, if the cards would be available.

OP's book has 2x Poisoned Blood
Show me any non-dark-school that can do that. With ANY card.

1x Jinx
Show me another non-arcane card that can do what jinx does.

1x Galvanize
Show me another non-holy card that can remove corrodes.

1x Magebane
Show me another non-dark card with this effect.

1x Chant of Rage
... same text


Why is it such a big problem that, if you play a "ranged attack solo mage" no matter which mage it is you need very similar cards? No matter if you play Jokthari or Adramalech or Wizard, you'll need stuff that boosts your ranged attacks to the maximum and let's you re-roll. And you'll need battleforge, thus many equipments. It's natural that they all need the same "skills/equipments" since they follow a very similar playstyle.

Same with dot-mages. If you play a dot-mage no matter if you use a druid, a warlock, a necro or a FM you'll need the same basics. Cutting the available points will only lead to making those mages even less distinguishable because you cannot and will not refrain from including ghoul rot, poisoned blood, mage bane and all the other spells that are fundamental for dot-builds. Obviously -.-

[Arkdeniz]

OP's book has 2x Poisoned Blood
Show me any non-dark-school that can do that. With ANY card.

1x Jinx
Show me another non-arcane card that can do what jinx does.

1x Galvanize
Show me another non-holy card that can remove corrodes.

1x Magebane
Show me another non-dark card with this effect.

1x Chant of Rage
... same text

I don't think 'no other card can do what Poisoned Blood' can do is the point. It would be bad game design if another card did. 

Rather, I assume the complaint is that because some cards are the 'simple' and 'obvious' answers to some problems, they get chosen because they can be afforded, at the cost of variety and 'thinking outside the box'. Thus countering individual spells become more of a concern in book construction than countering various mages.

By this I mean that if everyone packs a couple of Poisoned Bloods, then players will inevitably start thinking along the lines of "how can I work around/remove my opponent's inevitable Poisoned Blood play?', rather than 'Hmm, he has brought a Wizard. How might this Wizard plan to prevent me healing or regenerating, and how can I fight that?'

So: Poisoned Blood is used to prevent healing and regeneration. A Wizard who could not afford a PB might use nullifies, reverse magics and such to stop the Healing spells, or use dispel to get rid of regen enchantments and so on. A Warlord with no PBs might instead simply plan on dealing more damage, to nullify the regen through sheer output ("I don't care if you regenerate 2 damage when I can deal 4 more!"). 

I like theme in my games, MW included. So anything that can enhance the theme of different mages approaching the same problem with different tools gets a tick from me. I have suggested limiting the proportion of the spellbook dedicated to out-of-school cards. Others have suggested just making the books bigger or smaller. The best solution is probably just playing more with different players. Encounter new tricks. They are out there.

[Borg]

I don't think 'no other card can do what Poisoned Blood' can do is the point. It would be bad game design if another card did. 

Rather, I assume the complaint is that because some cards are the 'simple' and 'obvious' answers to some problems, they get chosen because they can be afforded, at the cost of variety and 'thinking outside the box'. Thus countering individual spells become more of a concern in book construction than countering various mages.

THAT is exactly the point I'm trying to get across.
Thank you for putting it in words so precisely, Arkdeniz.

It is EXACTLY because EVERY book can afford Poisoned Blood and Magebane and Chant of Rage and so much more ( the easy solutions ) that everybody uses them instead of trying to find alternative, outside-the-box in-school solutions.

Obviously those in-school alternatives may be less straight forward or effective as the out-of-school staples but may ultimately have the same end result.
That is also why I said that the current situation promotes "lazy deckbuilding".
Because every book has too many sbp's at the outset, the best and simplest approach to bookbuilding is to use all the most effective, proven cards. School-cost really has no impact currently. (Not enough anyway)

[Enti]

You are constructing a fantasy-world.

It's not such a nice feeling to be totally helpless as you imagine it to be, trust me

And those ominous "in school answers" that miraculously seem to appear once fewer spellbook points are available will not increase the fun but will increase the frustration.

Try it yourself, both of you, build mages with 80 sbp and fight each other and do that 100 times and after that you can see how great this idea is. Or if it makes the game much more predictable and boring.

[Arkdeniz]

I really have to try to get my head around octgn and play some of you guys. See if we can't change both our metas for the bettas. 

[DaveW]

Beautiful idea, if the cards would be available.

1x Galvanize
Show me another non-holy card that can remove corrodes.

Rust
Potentially also a second set of Armor

[Kelanen]

Beautiful idea, if the cards would be available.

1x Galvanize
Show me another non-holy card that can remove corrodes.

Rust
Potentially also a second set of Armor

Disarm

And I have 2 chest pieces and a Disarm in almost every book...

[wtcannonjr]

Beautiful idea, if the cards would be available.

1x Galvanize
Show me another non-holy card that can remove corrodes.

Rust
Potentially also a second set of Armor

Disarm

And I have 2 chest pieces and a Disarm in almost every book...

Raincloud also removes Corrode or Burn markers.

[DaveW]

Waterfall Cloak, I think... dont have my cards in front of me....

[Arkdeniz]

Not Waterfall Cloak. It gives Acid -2, and can remove Burns.

[DaveW]

Not Waterfall Cloak. It gives Acid -2, and can remove Burns.

Ah... that was it... thanks for the quick correction.