Gate to Hell- yes or no?

[Ravepig]

I know there has been previous discussion around Gate to Hell, but thought I would revisit this topic as I'm just now really getting into the Warlock build. This particular card intrigues me, but it's so expensive to get into play- both sbp and mana costs. Has anyone had good luck with this card? Combined with the Warlocks new helm (can't think of the name offhand) that gives friendly demons +1 melee could be a pretty effective combo with Gate to Hell if played and activated at the right time. Thoughts?

[iNano78]

I know there has been previous discussion around Gate to Hell, but thought I would revisit this topic as I'm just now really getting into the Warlock build. This particular card intrigues me, but it's so expensive to get into play- both sbp and mana costs. Has anyone had good luck with this card? Combined with the Warlocks new helm (can't think of the name offhand) that gives friendly demons +1 melee could be a pretty effective combo with Gate to Hell if played and activated at the right time. Thoughts?

I've got it in my multiplayer Domination Warlock book... and even in that environment where you can be guaranteed there will be lots of enemy level 1-2 creatures susceptible to the "Open the Gate" attack, and where I have lots of low-level demons popping out of a Pentagram that can benefit from both the Melee +1 and "Garrison Post" that the Gate provides (and are either Flame Immune or have Flame -2), I still have never put it in play.

I definitely wouldn't play it in Arena. Far too conditional; rarely worth the sbp or mana, whether you open the gate or not.

My comments from the multiplayer Domination discussion thread:

Warlock.
Arraxian Crown: (0-2-0)
Adramelech: (0-4-0)
Also sucks, but it's my personal goal to win a 3-way Domination match with a Warlock sporting Pentagram (e.g. worst spawn point) and Gate to Hell (e.g. worst Garrison Post), fueled by Ring of Fire and Firestorm, with lots of teleporting imps who give the (very popular) nature mages a tough time.

Those are (win-loss-draw) records...

[Ravepig]

I know there has been previous discussion around Gate to Hell, but thought I would revisit this topic as I'm just now really getting into the Warlock build. This particular card intrigues me, but it's so expensive to get into play- both sbp and mana costs. Has anyone had good luck with this card? Combined with the Warlocks new helm (can't think of the name offhand) that gives friendly demons +1 melee could be a pretty effective combo with Gate to Hell if played and activated at the right time. Thoughts?

I've got it in my multiplayer Domination Warlock book... and even in that environment where you can be guaranteed there will be lots of enemy level 1-2 creatures susceptible to the "Open the Gate" attack, and where I have lots of low-level demons popping out of a Pentagram that can benefit from both the Melee +1 and "Garrison Post" that the Gate provides, I still have never put it in play.

I definitely wouldn't play it in Arena. Far too conditional; rarely worth the sbp or mana, whether you open the gate or not.

I can definitely see this card being more useful in domination. That's something to consider. I agree with your assessment regarding Arena. It's really unfortunate because the concept of the card is oozing with theme. I almost want it in play just for theme alone- but I agree, probably not worth the cost in the end. 6 points that can be used on something more effective.

[Halewijn]

The sad truth is that it is a very bad card. I've tried a lot to make it work but it serves 3 unlinked purposes and it makes you pay a lot (both sbp and mana) for each.

- If you want melee +1, the bloodfire helmet (almost) gives you that for 1 spellbookpoint and 5 mana.

- If you want to spawn your demons near the enemy, you have to open the gate and make that attack. At that point you have spend 24 mana on a conjuration. That's the same amount as Adramelech! If you cast and open the gate early game, you probably have a very bad opening and the fire attack won't do a lot of damage. since there isn't much yet. At that point you also don't have a big army yet. However, if you want to cast it later on, you probably already have multiple demons and you won't be casting a lot of new ones.

All in all, I don't think it is ever worth it to open the gate and using the spell only for melee +1 is pretty expensive for 12 mana and 6 spellbookpoints.

TLDR: Cool art, cool theme, worthless card. 

[Ravepig]

The sad truth is that it is a very bad card. I've tried a lot to make it work but it serves 3 unlinked purposes and it makes you pay a lot (both sbp and mana) for each.

- If you want melee +1, the bloodfire helmet (almost) gives you that for 1 spellbookpoint and 5 mana.

- If you want to spawn your demons near the enemy, you have to open the gate and make that attack. At that point you have spend 24 mana on a conjuration. That's the same amount as Adramelech! If you cast and open the gate early game, you probably have a very bad opening and the fire attack won't do a lot of damage. since there isn't much yet. At that point you also don't have a big army yet. However, if you want to cast it later on, you probably already have multiple demons and you won't be casting a lot of new ones.

All in all, I don't think it is ever worth it to open the gate and using the spell only for melee +1 is pretty expensive for 12 mana and 6 spellbookpoints.

TLDR: Cool art, cool theme, worthless card.

Any chance of including Gate to Hell in future errata to make it more playable?

[iNano78]

Any chance of including Gate to Hell in future errata to make it more playable?

You mean, in addition to the recent errata (included in 4th printing) that was intended to make it more playable?

Gate to Hell
Current Text: "All demon creatures gain Melee +1. Gate to Hell enters play with a 'Closed' token. Once per game, as a full action, you may pay 12 mana to flip the token to the 'Opened' side, and make the above attack against each non-flying creature in the arena. Once opened, whenever you, or a spawnpoint or familiar you control, Summon a demon creature, you may place it in the Gate's zone."

Gate to Hell no longer has the Hydro +3 trait.

The action to “Open the Gate” must be performed by the controlling Mage, and may be performed from anywhere in the Arena. When the gate is opened, the controller decides the order for each attack to be resolved. Resolve the attacks one at a time, fully resolving the first one before going onto the next. These attacks do not require LOS as the gate is filling the entire board with this arena wide attack.

[Reddicediaries]

Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.

[Ravepig]

Any chance of including Gate to Hell in future errata to make it more playable?

You mean, in addition to the recent errata (included in 4th printing) that was intended to make it more playable?

Gate to Hell
Current Text: "All demon creatures gain Melee +1. Gate to Hell enters play with a 'Closed' token. Once per game, as a full action, you may pay 12 mana to flip the token to the 'Opened' side, and make the above attack against each non-flying creature in the arena. Once opened, whenever you, or a spawnpoint or familiar you control, Summon a demon creature, you may place it in the Gate's zone."

Gate to Hell no longer has the Hydro +3 trait.

The action to “Open the Gate” must be performed by the controlling Mage, and may be performed from anywhere in the Arena. When the gate is opened, the controller decides the order for each attack to be resolved. Resolve the attacks one at a time, fully resolving the first one before going onto the next. These attacks do not require LOS as the gate is filling the entire board with this arena wide attack.

Yeah, I know it's already been thru the process once. But if it's still not right, why not reconsider a second look until it is right? Selfishly, I want this card to be playable ha ha.

[Ravepig]

Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.

Agreed- we can still ask though. The worst they can say is no. If the community all agrees it's a terrible card, why not fix it (or re-fix it).

[Halewijn]

Bad cards can be altered with minor tweaks, but there is no way you can "fix" the gate without completely redesigning the card. At that point AW can probably better create a new card.

[iNano78]

Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.

Agreed- we can still ask though. The worst they can say is no. If the community all agrees it's a terrible card, why not fix it (or re-fix it).

Other priorities. I think they'd rather bring new product to market than put effort into rebalancing and playtesting product included in the original core set.

Bad cards can be altered with minor tweaks, but there is no way you can "fix" the gate without completely redesigning the card. At that point AW can probably better create a new card.

If they brought the casting cost down to 7 or 8 AND made it a quick-cast action (in line with the Totems), it might be worth playing. Then, the cost:benefit breaks down like this:

- 7 or 8 mana QC, targeting a zone at range 0-1: All demons (friendly and otherwise) get Melee +1.
- 12 mana and Full action, no range or LoS restriction: 4-dice Flame attack against all non-flying creatures in the Arena (friendly and unfriendly, including your mage), PLUS you turn the Gate into a "Garrison Post" for any future Demons you or your Pentagram summon.

This way, you at least get a "totem" for Demons at a reasonable cost even if you never "Open the Gate." ... Although I'm not sure it's worth 6 sbps... maybe 4?


*edit* By the way, here are the new (left) and old (right) versions of the card side-by-side (token in front of the wrong one; oops!)

[Ravepig]

Most bad cards don't get buffed, only good cards get nerfed.

Agreed- we can still ask though. The worst they can say is no. If the community all agrees it's a terrible card, why not fix it (or re-fix it).

Other priorities. I think they'd rather bring new product to market than put effort into rebalancing and playtesting product included in the original core set.

Bad cards can be altered with minor tweaks, but there is no way you can "fix" the gate without completely redesigning the card. At that point AW can probably better create a new card.

If they brought the casting cost down to 7 or 8 AND made it a quick-cast action (in line with the Totems), it might be worth playing. Then, the cost:benefit breaks down like this:

- 7 or 8 mana QC, targeting a zone at range 0-1: All demons (friendly and otherwise) get Melee +1.
- 12 mana and Full action, no range or LoS restriction: 4-dice Flame attack against all non-flying creatures in the Arena (friendly and unfriendly, including your mage), PLUS you turn the Gate into a "Garrison Post" for any future Demons you or your Pentagram summon.

This way, you at least get a "totem" for Demons at a reasonable cost even if you never "Open the Gate." ... Although I'm not sure it's worth 6 sbps... maybe 4?

I was thinking something very similar: reduce casting cost from 12 to 8 and reduce book cost from 6 to 4. Even if it's still a full action to cast, this small change makes the card feel worthwhile. It would take a couple sentences in the supplement document and a communication to make this happen. Or am I over-simplifying the process?

[Beldin]

Tbh if w are going down this route, there are a lot of overcosted cards and undercosted abilities. We would open a very big cans of worms. IMO it should stay as is and not be played.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Tbh if w are going down this route, there are a lot of overcosted cards and undercosted abilities. We would open a very big cans of worms. IMO it should stay as is and not be played.

Why not just only do this kind of errata for cards that NEVER see play? If a card is so bad that it is wasted space in a product and literally no one has any good reason to use it ever, then you could errata it. Any cards that are overcosted but not enough to be useless would not be errata'd. Does that sound like a good solution?

[Beldin]

No because that detracts from time spent on testing new cards.