Psi-orb, Harshforge Monolith and hidden enchantments

[Kaarin]

If I have Psi-Orb on and there's Harshforge Monolith in play, can I say "this hidden enchantment I control is a mind spell" and not pay upkeep for it?

[iNano78]

I would like to say "no" because a spell doesn't have a school or subtype until it is revealed... but that would directly go against several counterexamples (e.g. how [mwcard=FWQ09]Sectarus, Dark Rune Sword[/mwcard] can only cast curse enchantments, and how [mwcard=MWSTX2FFC11]Sersiryx, Imp Familiar[/mwcard] ups the specific conditions on a face-down enchantment by only being able to cast level 1-2 curse enchantments).  So... I guess yes (?), you can claim a facedown Enchantment is a certain level, has a certain subtype, or belongs to a certain school. 

[exid]

 
no idea...

[Kharhaz]

If I have Psi-Orb on and there's Harshforge Monolith in play, can I say "this hidden enchantment I control is a mind spell" and not pay upkeep for it?

You can say it but still have to pay upkeep on it.

"Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!"

Also

DESIGNER’S NOTE:
THE ENCHANTMENT MATRIX
An enchantment is a spell divided into two parts.
When you cast the spell, it creates a magical “matrix”
on the target. At this point, it is not fully formed and
exists only as magical potential, with no effect on the
battle. When the spell is revealed later, the caster
“completes” the spell by adding additional power. It
is only then that the enchantment takes form and
can affect the target. Using hidden enchantments,
a Mage can build a web of diabolical surprises for
his foe, which is an important part of the tactics in
Mage Wars®!


Familiars can only prepare spells that they cast as per the familiar wording

"If you control a Familiar during the Planning Phase, you may select a spell for it to cast during the round. The Familiar may have restrictions on the types of spells you may choose. Place the spell face down near your Familiar, and tell your opponent that it is the Familiar’s spell. Only your Familiar may cast that spell during the round."


Prepared spells are not hidden enchantments

[exid]

so, in inano78's answer, we could say that casting is an exception, but that in all other cases an unrevealed enchantment has no specificities?

[Coshade]

so, in inano78's answer, we could say that casting is an exception, but that in all other cases an unrevealed enchantment has no specificities?

yes

[Kharhaz]

so, in inano78's answer, we could say that casting is an exception, but that in all other cases an unrevealed enchantment has no specificities?

yes

Yes, but not exactly.

Separate example:

When you cast a wand you bind a specific type of spell facedown.
Technically since the spell has not been cast no parameters have been established. It has no type yet nor does it have a school, etc.

Same situation for familiars and spawnpoints. A prepared spell is not in play yet since it has not been cast and has no parameters. If a spell is illegally prepared then that is a different issue.

However even though my [mwcard=MW1J10]Lair[/mwcard] has a spell prepared I don't have to pay upkeep as per [mwcard=MW1J16]Mordok's Obelisk[/mwcard] even though it is going to be a creature spell.

[iNano78]

so, in inano78's answer, we could say that casting is an exception, but that in all other cases an unrevealed enchantment has no specificities?

yes

Yes, but not exactly (for another reason).

A facedown enchantment has no effect, but it does seem to have certain properties, including a name, since you aren't allowed to put more than one copy of the same Enchantment spell (eg same name) on an object, even if they are facedown.

[Kaarin]

"Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!"
According to this we should ignore traits of hidden enchantments and [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ01]Harshforge Monolith[/mwcard] gives a trait to hidden enchantment so HfM should have no effect on hidden enchantments.
Are properties (school, level) considered effects?

[Schwenkgott]

Psi Orb does not help you with upkeep for unrevelead enchantments, because the enchantment gets his psychic (or whatever speciality) only when its revealed .. and the upkeep reduction needs this speciality.

The Harshforge Monolith forces you to pay extra upkeep for enchantments, it doesn't matter if they are releaved or not. If they are revealed and if they are psychic and if you have equipped the Psi Orb, the upkeep is reduced by 1 mana (up to three different times).

[Kaarin]

Harshforge doesn't force me to pay anything, it grants a trait to enchantments. Traits are considered effects. "Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!"
Also according to page 12 of rulebook school and level aren't part of effects.

[Schwenkgott]

I can't follow you. I don't see a problem here.

[Sailor Vulcan]

Harshforge doesn't force me to pay anything, it grants a trait to enchantments. Traits are considered effects. "Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!"
Also according to page 12 of rulebook school and level aren't part of effects.

And yet face-down enchantments also have a casting cost. As I see it, there's no reason a face down enchant can't gain the upkeep +x trait. Face down enchantments are still objects that can be affected and targeted by other things. They just can't use their own
innate effects until they're revealed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kharhaz]

so, in inano78's answer, we could say that casting is an exception, but that in all other cases an unrevealed enchantment has no specificities?

yes

Yes, but not exactly (for another reason).

A facedown enchantment has no effect, but it does seem to have certain properties, including a name, since you aren't allowed to put more than one copy of the same Enchantment spell (eg same name) on an object, even if they are facedown.

An object can legally have two copies of a hidden enchantment on it at the same time; mine and yours. You cannot knowing place the same hidden enchantment on a creature with the same name.


Name and school are not keyword traits true but they do not have a bearing on the game until the hidden enchantment is revealed.


If you cast a [mwcard=MW1E23]Jinx[/mwcard] while wearing an [mwcard=MW1Q01]Arcane Ring[/mwcard] you do not gain a reduction in mana. Only when you reveal it.

Casting ends at the resolve spell step and it becomes a hidden enchantment without a subtype.

[iNano78]

An object can legally have two copies of a hidden enchantment on it at the same time; mine and yours. You cannot knowing place the same hidden enchantment on a creature with the same name.


Name and school are not keyword traits true but they do not have a bearing on the game until the hidden enchantment is revealed.


If you cast a [mwcard=MW1E23]Jinx[/mwcard] while wearing an [mwcard=MW1Q01]Arcane Ring[/mwcard] you do not gain a reduction in mana. Only when you reveal it.

Casting ends at the resolve spell step and it becomes a hidden enchantment without a subtype.

... but does keep its name (because otherwise I could "knowingly" cast the same enchantment, etc) - right?

So it sounds like the only trait a face-down enchantment has is a name.  No subtype (or else you might get a discount on upkeep of a mind spell via Psi Orb when Harshforge Monolith is in play) or level (Enchantment Transfusion, for instance) or school (no reason... other than discount rings only work when it gets revealed).  But it has to have some identifier (e.g. name) to prevent you from "knowingly" casting a second Enchantment (face-up or face-down) that is already attached to the same object.

Is this in the rules/codex/supplement anywhere?  Probably should be...