April 29, 2024, 06:50:52 AM

Author Topic: vine markers  (Read 6520 times)

exid

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vine markers
« on: April 19, 2016, 02:01:40 AM »
they will be destroyed by "any amount of damages".
is 0 damage enough (a hitting attack)?

echephron

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2016, 03:05:32 AM »
historically, no, you need to do 1+ damage
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exid

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2016, 03:19:58 AM »
is it written somewhere?

wtcannonjr

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2016, 05:49:55 AM »
is it written somewhere?
We followed the same logic for waking a creature from the Sleep condition. A hit is not enough. It requires at least one point of damage be taken to cause the effect.

I don't recall if this principle was listed in the rules or supplement.
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exid

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2016, 08:09:46 AM »
for the next version of the supplement!  ;)

sIKE

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2016, 08:24:09 AM »
Quote
Vine Markers (Game Marker)
Vine markers are a Living conjuration with 1 life, no armor, and they cannot gain armor. Vine markers hinder enemy non-Flying creatures. Any amount of damage will destroy a Vine Marker, regardless of its total life. They can’t be targeted by ranged attacks. Any number of Vine markers can occupy a zone.
As the Druid, or a familiar or tree spawnpoint she controls, casts a vine spell, you can destroy a target Vine marker she controls as an additional cost to cast that spell. If you do, you may ignore the range of that spell to target that Vine marker’s zone, an object in that Vine marker’s zone, or a border of that Vine marker’s zone. That vine spell must have a legal target. If two or more Druids are playing, each should use a different side of the Vine marker to distinguish ownership.

That should answer any questions.....
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Laddinfance

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2016, 08:33:01 AM »
It has to be a positive number to deal damage.

exid

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2016, 09:18:00 AM »
Quote
Vine Markers (Game Marker)
Vine markers are a Living conjuration with 1 life, no armor, and they cannot gain armor. Vine markers hinder enemy non-Flying creatures. Any amount of damage will destroy a Vine Marker, regardless of its total life. They can’t be targeted by ranged attacks. Any number of Vine markers can occupy a zone.
As the Druid, or a familiar or tree spawnpoint she controls, casts a vine spell, you can destroy a target Vine marker she controls as an additional cost to cast that spell. If you do, you may ignore the range of that spell to target that Vine marker’s zone, an object in that Vine marker’s zone, or a border of that Vine marker’s zone. That vine spell must have a legal target. If two or more Druids are playing, each should use a different side of the Vine marker to distinguish ownership.

That should answer any questions.....

that answers the question: "does Exid know how to read?"...
sorry...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 09:20:59 AM by Exid »

exid

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2016, 09:22:40 AM »
It has to be a positive number to deal damage.

mathematically, 0 is positive  ;D

iNano78

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2016, 09:28:00 AM »
It has to be a positive number to deal damage.

mathematically, 0 is positive  ;D

I'm not going to argue the positivity or negativity of zero, but will note that in many board and miniature games, "any amount of damage" includes 0.  In the next rules & codex update, I'd recommend changing that sentence to "Any non-zero amount of damage will destroy a Vine Marker..."

(I'm assuming there will never be a way to deal a negative amount of damage in Mage Wars...)
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exid

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2016, 09:34:17 AM »
It has to be a positive number to deal damage.

mathematically, 0 is positive  ;D

I'm not going to argue the positivity or negativity of zero, but will note that in many board and miniature games, "any amount of damage" includes 0.  In the next rules & codex update, I'd recommend changing that sentence to "Any non-zero amount of damage will destroy a Vine Marker..."

(I'm assuming there will never be a way to deal a negative amount of damage in Mage Wars...)
i'm sure 0 is positive and negative (but not "strictly" positive and not strictly" negative).

but with Sike's post above the rules are perfectly clear on this point.

Beldin

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2016, 09:35:32 AM »

(I'm assuming there will never be a way to deal a negative amount of damage in Mage Wars...)


Is that not healing? ;D

Zuberi

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2016, 10:20:53 AM »
The reason we don't need any more clarity in the rules is because of how mage wars defines damage. You only take damage when damage actually gets applied. If you didn't apply any damage tokens or mark it on your status board, then you didn't take any. 0 damage is the same as no damage. Saying that you take damage when you don't take damage makes no sense and shouldn't be something we need to clarify.

So yes you can hit a vine marker with a zero damage attack, but hitting it doesn't destroy it. Dealing damage does. What the rules are saying with "any amount of damage" is that you can't really increase its life above 1, because 1 damage will still kill it. But you still have to do that one damage to it to kill it. Now, if there was a way to give it armor, that could help keep it alive.

iNano78

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2016, 10:30:24 AM »
The reason we don't need any more clarity in the rules is because of how mage wars defines damage. You only take damage when damage actually gets applied. If you didn't apply any damage tokens or mark it on your status board, then you didn't take any. 0 damage is the same as no damage. Saying that you take damage when you don't take damage makes no sense and shouldn't be something we need to clarify.

So yes you can hit a vine marker with a zero damage attack, but hitting it doesn't destroy it. Dealing damage does. What the rules are saying with "any amount of damage" is that you can't really increase its life above 1, because 1 damage will still kill it. But you still have to do that one damage to it to kill it. Now, if there was a way to give it armor, that could help keep it alive.

I vaguely recall (and am too lazy/busy to look it up right now) that an attack "hits" if it is not avoided in the Avoid Attack step, even if it rolls all blanks or deals no damage (due to armor for example).  Has this changed?  And while the vine marker rules don't use the term "if the attack hits" but rather "any damage", it's still a little vague, since "any" usually includes "0" as long as an attack "hit".

If you're familiar with X-wing miniatures, it's kind of like how Lt Blount can "hit" even if he doesn't deal damage, and a "hit" can strip a Stealth Device even if no damage is dealt (and a lack of a "hit" won't strip a Stealth Device, even if damage was dealt in some other way), and various other effects trigger on "hit" while others trigger on "damage" and these things are not the same; in fact, several secondary weapons say something like "if this attack hits, cancel all dice and [do something]."  Similarly, a "hit" and "damage" are not the same in Mage Wars, and whether or not "any damage" includes 0 or not should be defined somewhere.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 10:32:32 AM by iNano78 »
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Zuberi

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Re: vine markers
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2016, 11:14:29 AM »
Hit and damage are different things in mage wars. You can hit and deal no damage. However you can not deal damage and deal no damage.