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Author Topic: Is the arena wizard still OP?  (Read 69060 times)

RomeoXero

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2016, 07:25:38 PM »
Personally i think it's kind of odd (nothing wrong with it cuz i likely see why) that whenever we open up and start firing away at the wizard and the myriad of reasons why he collectively chaps the assess of mage wars players, that the official reps from arcane wonders never tend to pipe up. I mean we literally go off about this guy for pages upon pages and the only time we hear from laddinfance is when someone asks a specific rules question.

It makes me wonder if we are actively pissing off the creators when we talk like this. And just for the record im in the camp of the broken wizard as well. I think the most glaring problem is his lack of a triple cost school. That having been said i still wonder if Aaron is just behind his computer screen, face palming and drinking scotch because of our angry, cage rattling, crabby rants. Just a thought. But one again... wizard is at least unbalanced.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2016, 07:46:45 PM »
My feeling has always been that The Wizard is tricky because he doesn't have one single obvious advantage to say "that's the primary issue." When I look at the The Wizard what I see is a perfect storm of small overlapping advantages that just kind of add up to what I consider to be an over-effective mage:

A. Spell book construction-  Before even looking at what the spells do, he has two important notes at this phase of the game:
1) He has no penalized school. This doesn't ALWAYS cause a major impact (Nature mages don't really suffer too hard from 3xfire. Necromancers non living forces don't mind his 3xholy), but it does come into play and particularly so at meta shifts.  For example, whenever Frost comes out, there might suddenly be a very real need to have some burn spells on hand for that Defrost trait...suddenly the meta is a little harsher on those Nature mages than it currently is.  Being the only mage who has no triple cost means he will always have a pretty good ability to evolve with future releases, he wont always be able to take maximum advantage but will never be the worst.  When Necromancer came out, obviously the Warlock benefitted because of Dark training..Priestess benefitted the least from that due to Dark triple cost.  Wizard stayed in the middle of the pack and always will at least be there because he doesn't have an unfavored school for a new set to put him in the "favored least" category.

2) that leads to his next spellbook advantage.  He not only has a second full training (something some mages don't even get at all) but he gets to CHOOSE it.  So, again, as the meta evolves and new cards come out the Wizard can evolve with it.  If fire becomes the new thing, Warlocks benefit and Nature mages frown, but Wizards can opt in.  If Earth suddenly sucks, Wizard can opt out of it and let Warlords bemoan it.  Siren comes out.. Wizard can take a gander at her Water toys and see what hed like to borrow.  Some mages have that ability (like Warlocks and Warlords) but its static, they cant swap it out for something more optimal at any point in the games life.

So, for all of the above he maintains 10 channel and while he doesn't have the highest health total he still has comparable health. Now, this is all just looking at a pure strength of spellbook design.. this isn't even factoring in that his core training is one of the most important schools, or the strength of his own restricted cards or even his own abilites.  That's a totally different matter.   
(Personally I have always felt Wizard should pay triple for Nature and War to offset his multi-faceted spellbook advantage.  Nature because it seems thematically aproprate to put it opposite the Voltaric otherworldy flavored magic of Arcane school, and so that he has to pay more for things like creature buffs, tanglevines, grizzlies, wall of thorns, and so on.  Then War because it makes him favor Arcane equipment like wands and elemental/supression cloak and discourages him from gearing up in heavy armor and morning stars and not favoring battlefield command style cards rather making him opt for more magical flavored schools like mind, dark and holy for support if not his chosen elemental.  that's just my take on his training though)

B. Then there is his general action efficiency advantage. When preparing spells, you generally want to have as many options available to you as possible.  You usually have 2 actions and 2 possible spells.. if your round is contengint on both, and one is botched sometimes it trainwrecks your entire round.   Wizard has a pretty subtle and useful strength here:
1)  Arcane Zap is easy to overlook, but the major advantage of it is that its effectively a third prepared spell every turn.  If you think you "might" need to shoot something this round, you don't have to give up the Dispel or Teleport you wanted to prepare this turn just in case you need a hurl rock because you have Arcane Zap in your pocket.  Did the opponent drop a Jinx on you or give himself a Block?  You can just fire an Arcane Zap without wasting that prepared spell to open it up.
2)  Voltaric Sheild is the same deal, if you want to cusion yourself defensivly there are good tools for it.. Block, Brace Yourself, etc.  But those have to be prepared and cast, Voltaric Sheild lets you brace for damage without committing one of your prepared spells or spending actions to doing so. So the passive nature of these two abilities helps augment your options every turn while prepping spells that offer a broader options and more fluid strategies.  This lets the Wizard be conservative with his spells, and always seem prepared for more options.
As mentioned before, this efficency exists on its own without factoring in his above spell building flexibility nor the strength of his tools and schools.

C) Then, there is the advantage any mage has simply by having access to the Arcane school.  Setting aside the Wizard-only aspects or his secondary training, its a big deal to have premium access to all the core functions of this school.  You save spell points from obvious things like Dispel, Nullify, and Jinx to other staples like Mana Crystals, Elemental Cloak, and Spell Wands.  While most major schools have "must haves" Arcane seems to have the most important, and the ones that are most important to have in multiples.  Not only that, the cards for combating the Arcane school are primarily contained... in the Arcane school.  Denying/Draining mana, and sources of boosting/protecting mana are both arcane.  Magic utility and Metamagic counters are both Arcane.  So, when these core elements are used by all other mages an Arcane trained mage is in the best position to counter his opponent out without as much spellbook compromise.  As previously stated.. regardless of the mage abilities and spellbook design perks.. this training is strong on its own.  A mage with weak abilities would still have a good spellbook situation by having Arcane training.

D) The Wizard uniquely has some potent cards that are restricted just to him.  Ignoring his mage card, ignoring his trainings, for example I think Gate to Voltari is the best spawnpoint in the game. Its durable, it triggers mana without requiring a gameable gimmick...you get mana by the opponent playing the game, and it summons creatures from a wide spread of strong options.  Wizard Tower is one of the most flexible support cards a mage can run, even Huugin is a strong familiar. (Though other familiars like Gurmaash, Fellelia and Serseryx are also strong in their own contexts)  So on top of being trained in a good school, the Wizard has some strong tools that would be potent regardless of his spellbook constraints.

That's all a pretty basic and general overview without going too hard in depth. Taken individually, none of those advantages are a smoking gun to say "this makes him broken!" nor are they individually without some degree of tit-for-tat against other mages.  But they compile in a way that is hard to pinpoint the cleanest way to prescribe a clear picture of why the Wizard is so strong and how to easily tailor him down or to tailor other mages mages/schools up to close that gap.

That's just my general overview on why he seems stands out among other mages anyway.

Okay, that was the simplest and most intuitive way that anyone's explained it to me so far. You've got me convinced. It's been pointed out to me that I was setting up my standard of evidence too high. I was underconfident and should not have dismissed all the evidence because it wasn't a controlled experimental trial. While such a method would help settle the argument more definitively, it isn't necessary for me to make up my mind. The Wizard is overpowered.

The question that I'm wondering now is this:

Has the wizard always been overpowered? The Frugal Fire Wizard seems to hold its own just fine without being OP in the current global meta or at least before Domination/Academy as far as I can tell, but then so do the other Core set x1 only mages I've made (although I'm not entirely sure how viable the beastmaster build is yet). So how much of the problem is the wizard's abilities and how much is the arcane school?

Paying triple for nature and war...hmm. I think part of the thematic dillemma here is that the wizard is presented as the "science/research mage", but science includes things like biology (study of life), neuroscience/psychology (study of the brain/mind), chemistry (the study of the elements)...

Ideally magical zoologists would tend to be beastmasters and magical botanists would tend to be druids. Ideally magical medical doctors would tend to be priestesses and magical pathologists would tend to be necromancers.

Of course, in this hypothetical scenario, the people who diagnose a disease (necromancers) are not the same as the people who treat the disease (priestesses). This probably makes sense in Etheria because this way no one has to be cut open in order to treat whatever is ailing someone. How does the priestess know where to direct her healing magics in a patient's body if she can't sense the disease or the internal wound? If it's an open external wound she has no problem, but if it's anything that you can't see without cutting someone open, you would need a necromancer.

And of course, the magical equivalent of neuroscientists and psychologists would tend to be forcemasters or other mages from the mind school.

Having arcane school be the "science" school doesn't really work, and only serves to justify imbalances like what we're seeing now.

A wizard is the magical equivalent of a physicist/chemist. He shouldn't pay triple for war, physics and chemistyr is very useful for making weapons--just look at Goblin Alchemist!

He shouldn't pay triple for nature. There is no reason someone who is a physicist can't also be good with animals or grow a pretty good garden of his own.

So what are physicists and chemists bad at?

Well, stereotypically, physicists and chemists tend to have trouble communicating their findings to regular people, and they're so engrossed in their studies of the deeper more fundamental nature of reality that they sometimes are a bit out of touch with everyday surface phenomenon (or maybe they just forget sometimes that most people don't know anywhere near as much as they do about the fundamental nature of reality, and that they're operating from a completely different frame of reference.)

Furthermore, being smart, sensible, methodical and curious is not the same thing as having a good understanding of one's own mind or of minds in general. And a person can be good at the former things and still be bad at the latter things.

Maybe wizards should pay triple for mind.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 07:54:49 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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iNano78

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2016, 08:29:17 PM »
Paying triple for nature and war...hmm. I think part of the thematic dillemma here is that the wizard is presented as the "science/research mage", but science includes things like biology (study of life), neuroscience/psychology (study of the brain/mind), chemistry (the study of the elements)...

Forgive me for cutting your quote down.

In the organized play stories, the Beastmaster and Druid are interested in preservation of the natural world.  They might be happy to study it, but not to upset the delicate life balance of their environments.  They're more about ecology than experimenal biology.

Looking at the non-orc/goblin War creatures shows that the War mages are more into physics and engineering.  You have Otto Kronig and Grimson Deadeye and Ludwig Boltstrom, who are obviously quite inventive.  You have war machines like Akiro's Hammer and Ballista.  Even Goblin Alchemist and Goblin Bomber are into physics and chemistry... but more on the destructive side that goes along with the Bloodwave.  War is the (non-life) physical sciences and engineering.

Back to the organized play stories, Wizards are blamed for the abominations in the Darkfenne (e.g. hydras and various other abominations).  Arcane creatures are considered "unnatural" experiments by the Nature mages, upsetting the environmental balance and rather performing gene-splicing and creating golems and gargoyles through unnatural magic... more like Dr. Frankenstein "what can I create today?" (but not quite to the typical dead-raising tactics of the Necromancer).  They lust for more and more power and do things selfishly, rather than for the good of Etheria.  They want to connect to Voltarii and want V'tar, etc.  There are exceptions (e.g. Wizards that aid Westlock and Straywood), but in general they do things for their own purposes.  So they might seem to use science, they only use it as a tool to upset balance and manipulate nature to do their bidding - tricksters to their cores.  So I don't have a problem with them paying triple for Nature and War.  It makes sense for Arcane and War to be opposites (and those mages paying triple for the other) just as Holy and Dark are opposites.   That might imply that Nature and Mind might also be opposites, though...  Perhaps War and Mind should be opposites instead and have Nature and Arcane be opposites, but the the opposition between War and Arcane was already made precedent with both Warlords paying triple for Arcane rather than Mind.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 08:32:17 PM by iNano78 »
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Laddinfance

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2016, 08:40:32 PM »
Personally i think it's kind of odd (nothing wrong with it cuz i likely see why) that whenever we open up and start firing away at the wizard and the myriad of reasons why he collectively chaps the assess of mage wars players, that the official reps from arcane wonders never tend to pipe up. I mean we literally go off about this guy for pages upon pages and the only time we hear from laddinfance is when someone asks a specific rules question.

It makes me wonder if we are actively pissing off the creators when we talk like this. And just for the record im in the camp of the broken wizard as well. I think the most glaring problem is his lack of a triple cost school. That having been said i still wonder if Aaron is just behind his computer screen, face palming and drinking scotch because of our angry, cage rattling, crabby rants. Just a thought. But one again... wizard is at least unbalanced.



I couldn't get myself facepalming in the frame.

Yes, I do read all of these. No, I'm not "pissed". Often I don't say anything because I have nothing to add. I don't want to hijack your conversation, and frankly these conversations help me keep pulse on our playerbase. Lastly, I don't want to promise what I can't deliver or veto things that out of hand.

Basically, it's the old adage, "You have one mouth and two ears, so you can listen twice as much as you talk." But that's me. Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

RomeoXero

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2016, 08:51:40 PM »
Well at least you've got excellent taste in scotch. I suddenly feel a kinship with you sir! Cheers!
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baronzaltor

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2016, 08:53:50 PM »
It makes sense for Arcane and War to be opposites (and those mages paying triple for the other) just as Holy and Dark are opposites.   That might imply that Nature and Mind might also be opposites, though...  Perhaps War and Mind should be opposites instead and have Nature and Arcane be opposites, but the the opposition between War and Arcane was already made precedent with both Warlords paying triple for Arcane rather than Mind.
I don't think it should be looked at as the schools themselves are opposites, but rather the mages archetypes or discipline themselves fill in that element with their own personality or tenants.

Like, not a flat rule that "knowing War means Arcane is triple" but rather "Warlords study war with no interest in studying the Voltari"  That leaves the door open for mages who are flavored to be War mages, but don't end up paying triple for Arcane for arbitrary purposes when other triple costs make more rational sense.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 09:05:36 PM by baronzaltor »

Laddinfance

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2016, 08:58:04 PM »
Well at least you've got excellent taste in scotch. I suddenly feel a kinship with you sir! Cheers!

I'm saving that bottle for something special. Not sure exactly what at the moment.

RomeoXero

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2016, 09:13:25 PM »
Well if you'll take some friendly advice,don't save it for the day folks stop whining about the wizard. Looks like that day is a long way away. It's definitely worth saving for something though. That's good scotch!
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2016, 09:14:31 PM »
Well at least you've got excellent taste in scotch. I suddenly feel a kinship with you sir! Cheers!

You just reminded me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PeKcWCC-tw
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 09:21:32 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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jhaelen

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2016, 03:27:23 AM »
Paying triple for nature and war...hmm. I think part of the thematic dillemma here is that the wizard is presented as the "science/research mage", but science includes things like biology (study of life), neuroscience/psychology (study of the brain/mind), chemistry (the study of the elements)...
To this I can only say: In game design, fluff (theme) should never take precendence over mechanics, or in this case balance.

If you create a game in which several different specialist mages are supposed to be on an equal footing, you cannot have a Mary-Sue mage, no matter how justified it may seem because of its theme. It must have a set of disadvantages to balance it with the other mages.

Ravepig

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2016, 10:04:45 AM »
...then this debate will never be resolved.

Quoted for truth. I don't see this being resolved, regardless of any of the above suggestions.

All the testing required to just prove a point. Whatever happened to just having fun?  ;) Playing 20+ structured games to prove a point does not sound like fun at all.

It's not just to prove a point. I actually am not entirely certain whether the wizard is still OP or not and would like to know. And you mean to tell me that playing 20+ games of Mage Wars isn't fun?

20 forced/structured games of anything does not sound fun at all. It takes away the fun of choice. Who I want to play, how I want to play, who my random opponent might be. When I'm forced to play this or that mage, and my opponent is forced to play this or that mage, over a schedule of multiple games, then suddenly, I lose interest. Part of the fun of mage wars is building my spell book how I want and playing what mage I want!
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2016, 11:15:10 AM »
Paying triple for nature and war...hmm. I think part of the thematic dillemma here is that the wizard is presented as the "science/research mage", but science includes things like biology (study of life), neuroscience/psychology (study of the brain/mind), chemistry (the study of the elements)...
To this I can only say: In game design, fluff (theme) should never take precendence over mechanics, or in this case balance.

If you create a game in which several different specialist mages are supposed to be on an equal footing, you cannot have a Mary-Sue mage, no matter how justified it may seem because of its theme. It must have a set of disadvantages to balance it with the other mages.
I can tell you that Mage Wars is all about theme first and then mechanics are made to fit the theme (most of the time but not all of the time.) This is what I love about the game, most of the time you can close your eyes and see what happened. A creature with sharp claws slashes you across your stomach and your innards fall out and you are Bleeding to death(Bleed Marker 1 dmg during upkeep)  vs. a minecraft block axe that strikes you and you get a damage over time marker 1 dmg during upkeep.
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iNano78

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2016, 12:16:51 PM »
Paying triple for nature and war...hmm. I think part of the thematic dillemma here is that the wizard is presented as the "science/research mage", but science includes things like biology (study of life), neuroscience/psychology (study of the brain/mind), chemistry (the study of the elements)...
To this I can only say: In game design, fluff (theme) should never take precendence over mechanics, or in this case balance.

If you create a game in which several different specialist mages are supposed to be on an equal footing, you cannot have a Mary-Sue mage, no matter how justified it may seem because of its theme. It must have a set of disadvantages to balance it with the other mages.
I can tell you that Mage Wars is all about theme first and then mechanics are made to fit the theme (most of the time but not all of the time.) This is what I love about the game, most of the time you can close your eyes and see what happened. A creature with sharp claws slashes you across your stomach and your innards fall out and you are Bleeding to death(Bleed Marker 1 dmg during upkeep)  vs. a minecraft block axe that strikes you and you get a damage over time marker 1 dmg during upkeep.

I think "Rot" and "Bleed" could both have been called "Infected Wound" (or simply "Infection") and had both the poison trait and the way to remove it as per Bleed rules, and it would have functioned perfectly well for all purposes; e.g. thematically fits for the Tegu, Bloodspine Wall, Darkfenne Bat, Dire Wolf, Necromancer's "Poison Master" ability - even Plague Zombie, if you assume his stench/slime/disease ends up on all the cuts on all the living creatures in his zone.

"Tainted" is a little different, but I'm not convinced it's necessary.  It could have been 2 "Infection" markers, which are more annoying to remove - and more lethal if ignored - than a single "Infection" marker.

Can you justify the need for "Daze" / "Stun" / "Slam" / "Stagger" / "Sleep" / "Restrained" / "Incapacitated"?  I was pretty surprised to see the introduction of Stagger in Academy, which is basically Incapacitated (Stunned) for Minor creatures and a mini "Weak" for Major creatures, added to Academy - which also includes "Weak" as well (e.g. "more Staggered").  It feels like 2 flavours of Weak.  They could have done the same with just Weak and Daze and I don't think it would have made Academy any less good.
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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2016, 12:33:49 PM »
This last post would be better over in the Mage Wars v2 thread, but you are mixing conditions with effects here. 

Thematically:

Daze - blinded hard to see
Stun - knocked out for a 10 count
Slam - knocked down to the ground
Stagger - breath has been knocked out of you
Sleep - you ate the apple


Restrained - you are tied up
Incapacitated - you cant do anything

Really flip through the codex combine what you think are over lapping entries in the codex, once you get that done, you might have removed one page of entries and it might (just maybe) be a bit simpler. But no, the game in and of itself is rules intensive and efforts to make it simple are really just theme killers with little effect on the size of the overall rule set.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the arena wizard still OP?
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2016, 01:06:48 PM »
Has anyone considered what the wizard would be like if he had 9 channeling instead of 10? Since he can increase his mana generation pretty easily already, maybe he doesn't need to have 10 channeling at the start?


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