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Author Topic: About Immunity  (Read 59674 times)

exid

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #150 on: November 30, 2015, 03:21:20 AM »
1) creatures immune to an attack can't be targetted by attacks of that type
2) guarding creatures in a zone must be attacked before any other creature
3) if you can't target the guard, you are not allowed to attack any other creature in the zone
I suppose I shouldn't pick attacks the creature's immune against, then.

I didn't follow the discussion, but why don't we simply change the rule, that targeting a creature is allowed, but the attack simply fizzles, doing nothing at all?
because changing 1 rull in such a chaotic system can have bad consequences.

bigfatchef

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #151 on: November 30, 2015, 04:02:49 AM »
1) creatures immune to an attack can't be targetted by attacks of that type
2) guarding creatures in a zone must be attacked before any other creature
3) if you can't target the guard, you are not allowed to attack any other creature in the zone
I suppose I shouldn't pick attacks the creature's immune against, then.

I didn't follow the discussion, but why don't we simply change the rule, that targeting a creature is allowed, but the attack simply fizzles, doing nothing at all?

That would be awesome! But for now it is as Moonglow summoned up and yes it is idiotic.

Moonglow

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #152 on: November 30, 2015, 04:18:24 AM »
I never said it was idiotic.  There are ummm 'features'  to the immunity vs guard interaction that some people find less than intuitive and that others value for their simplicity.

I still like a tweak to guarding that you can't guard against an attack you're immune to, but don't think I'd introduce it over the rules as written.  There is a lot of hidden complexity in mage wars that mostly appears as elegant simplicity.... Until you break it.

I mean despite some of the issues identified on these forums (probably some of the most detailed mage wars discussions around I'd imagine)  most of a huge number of  spells, creatures and effects can be played easily,  as they appear/you'd think they should and without argument.  That's pretty amazing.

Kaarin

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #153 on: November 30, 2015, 07:38:37 AM »
Just think for how long this wasn't an issue considering that it was present since the Core Set. I wonder if people will start casting Flame Strike on their enemies after this thread.
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sIKE

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #154 on: November 30, 2015, 09:21:00 AM »
I didn't follow the discussion, but why don't we simply change the rule, that targeting a creature is allowed, but the attack simply fizzles, doing nothing at all?
Because of the way the system works, right now you can not declare an attack, if you could target them, then you could declare an attack, it would fizzle, and the guard marker would come off. As all it takes for a "successful attack" is to target somebody.
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Sailor Vulcan

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About Immunity
« Reply #155 on: November 30, 2015, 10:36:36 AM »
Just think for how long this wasn't an issue considering that it was present since the Core Set. I wonder if people will start casting Flame Strike on their enemies after this thread.

They probably will, at least if Arcane Wonders doesn't decide to change it.

Over time we are probably going to see more and more issues like this pop up, and the answer every time will either be to update the rules or errata a card, some combination thereof or to do nothing. And the more times this occurs, the more specific card interactions newer players will have to memorize and the less intuitive the game will become.

One of the biggest differences between customizable strategy games and other kinds of games is that they are far more complex and always growing and changing. They have many more moving parts to them, and it is an endless balancing act to keep it all working right. Mistakes are not just more likely in this genre, they are inevitable.

Other customizable strategy games deal with this problem by hiding from it, by pretending that all mistakes could have been avoided if they only paid attention and play tested better, and when they make a particularly harmful mistake, they choose to either ban it, restrict it or release more cards to balance it.

Since Mage Wars is an LCG-like game,  banning cards is not a viable option because that reduces the value of the sets they come in. For mistakes having to do with balance alone, releasing more cards is probably the best option at least most of the time. But when it comes to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions, releasing more cards usually won't help, and doing nothing but saying that card text trump rules as written is not a good permanent solution (at least on its own) because it causes exceptional edge cases to accumulate without end as the game ages, and all of these exceptions must be memorized. This means that older players will have an advantage not just in skill, experience or card access, but in knowledge of obscure and unintuitive rules exceptions, and that knowledge advantage will grow over time without limit. I suspect that the only truly feasible long-term solution to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions will have to involve errata. For an LCG-like game, correcting cards isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of a generally healthy meta with a good immune system. This truth is unfortunately lost on most gamers, perhaps in part because most games won't even admit to it.

Maybe when it comes to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions we should just admit to it and fix it, instead of accumulating a bunch of rules exceptions that we have to memorize. It's probably not even necessary to fix all of them. Just enough that the number of rules exceptions that people have to memorize is relatively constant instead of increasing over time.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 10:42:01 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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sIKE

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #156 on: November 30, 2015, 11:30:14 AM »
Just think for how long this wasn't an issue considering that it was present since the Core Set. I wonder if people will start casting Flame Strike on their enemies after this thread.

They probably will, at least if Arcane Wonders doesn't decide to change it.

Over time we are probably going to see more and more issues like this pop up, and the answer every time will either be to update the rules or errata a card, some combination thereof or to do nothing. And the more times this occurs, the more specific card interactions newer players will have to memorize and the less intuitive the game will become.

One of the biggest differences between customizable strategy games and other kinds of games is that they are far more complex and always growing and changing. They have many more moving parts to them, and it is an endless balancing act to keep it all working right. Mistakes are not just more likely in this genre, they are inevitable.

Other customizable strategy games deal with this problem by hiding from it, by pretending that all mistakes could have been avoided if they only paid attention and play tested better, and when they make a particularly harmful mistake, they choose to either ban it, restrict it or release more cards to balance it.

Since Mage Wars is an LCG-like game,  banning cards is not a viable option because that reduces the value of the sets they come in. For mistakes having to do with balance alone, releasing more cards is probably the best option at least most of the time. But when it comes to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions, releasing more cards usually won't help, and doing nothing but saying that card text trump rules as written is not a good permanent solution (at least on its own) because it causes exceptional edge cases to accumulate without end as the game ages, and all of these exceptions must be memorized. This means that older players will have an advantage not just in skill, experience or card access, but in knowledge of obscure and unintuitive rules exceptions, and that knowledge advantage will grow over time without limit. I suspect that the only truly feasible long-term solution to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions will have to involve errata. For an LCG-like game, correcting cards isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of a generally healthy meta with a good immune system. This truth is unfortunately lost on most gamers, perhaps in part because most games won't even admit to it.

Maybe when it comes to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions we should just admit to it and fix it, instead of accumulating a bunch of rules exceptions that we have to memorize. It's probably not even necessary to fix all of them. Just enough that the number of rules exceptions that people have to memorize is relatively constant instead of increasing over time.
If you consider it as an issue and that it is severely broken. Looking over the thread, it look to me (IMHO) like most see it a minor issue that really is not that big of a deal. Its not that hard to work around and there has to be an exactingly small game setup for it to even matter, once again, like you can do with any guard, you can Push them out of the zone or pull the guarded target away from the guard, or use elusive just to ignore it all together.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #157 on: November 30, 2015, 01:17:14 PM »

Just think for how long this wasn't an issue considering that it was present since the Core Set. I wonder if people will start casting Flame Strike on their enemies after this thread.

They probably will, at least if Arcane Wonders doesn't decide to change it.

Over time we are probably going to see more and more issues like this pop up, and the answer every time will either be to update the rules or errata a card, some combination thereof or to do nothing. And the more times this occurs, the more specific card interactions newer players will have to memorize and the less intuitive the game will become.

One of the biggest differences between customizable strategy games and other kinds of games is that they are far more complex and always growing and changing. They have many more moving parts to them, and it is an endless balancing act to keep it all working right. Mistakes are not just more likely in this genre, they are inevitable.

Other customizable strategy games deal with this problem by hiding from it, by pretending that all mistakes could have been avoided if they only paid attention and play tested better, and when they make a particularly harmful mistake, they choose to either ban it, restrict it or release more cards to balance it.

Since Mage Wars is an LCG-like game,  banning cards is not a viable option because that reduces the value of the sets they come in. For mistakes having to do with balance alone, releasing more cards is probably the best option at least most of the time. But when it comes to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions, releasing more cards usually won't help, and doing nothing but saying that card text trump rules as written is not a good permanent solution (at least on its own) because it causes exceptional edge cases to accumulate without end as the game ages, and all of these exceptions must be memorized. This means that older players will have an advantage not just in skill, experience or card access, but in knowledge of obscure and unintuitive rules exceptions, and that knowledge advantage will grow over time without limit. I suspect that the only truly feasible long-term solution to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions will have to involve errata. For an LCG-like game, correcting cards isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of a generally healthy meta with a good immune system. This truth is unfortunately lost on most gamers, perhaps in part because most games won't even admit to it.

Maybe when it comes to faulty and ambiguous not-as-intended rules interactions we should just admit to it and fix it, instead of accumulating a bunch of rules exceptions that we have to memorize. It's probably not even necessary to fix all of them. Just enough that the number of rules exceptions that people have to memorize is relatively constant instead of increasing over time.
If you consider it as an issue and that it is severely broken. Looking over the thread, it look to me (IMHO) like most see it a minor issue that really is not that big of a deal. Its not that hard to work around and there has to be an exactingly small game setup for it to even matter, once again, like you can do with any guard, you can Push them out of the zone or pull the guarded target away from the guard, or use elusive just to ignore it all together.

Sorry, it took me a while to write that post and halfway through I forgot whether I was in the immunity thread or the akiro's thread... :/
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Moonglow

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #158 on: December 01, 2015, 02:22:22 AM »


Its ok, I think both are now just battling for world record longest rule discussion thread titles...

exid

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #159 on: December 01, 2015, 01:30:32 PM »


Its ok, I think both are now just battling for world record longest rule discussion thread titles...

and i love it!

DaveW

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #160 on: December 01, 2015, 04:18:21 PM »
I didn't follow the discussion, but why don't we simply change the rule, that targeting a creature is allowed, but the attack simply fizzles, doing nothing at all?
Because of the way the system works, right now you can not declare an attack, if you could target them, then you could declare an attack, it would fizzle, and the guard marker would come off. As all it takes for a "successful attack" is to target somebody.

So? Let the initial attack fail and let the guard get in his counterstrike. Problem solved. Yes, the guard marker comes off, but the guard made a successful attack and the other creature didn't.
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Kelanen

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #161 on: December 01, 2015, 04:59:41 PM »
How about leave it as it is, and the problem is better solved?

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #162 on: December 01, 2015, 05:04:55 PM »
So? Let the initial attack fail and let the guard get in his counterstrike. Problem solved. Yes, the guard marker comes off, but the guard made a successful attack and the other creature didn't.
But that would not reflect immunity properly....
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exid

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #163 on: December 02, 2015, 04:51:06 AM »
So? Let the initial attack fail and let the guard get in his counterstrike. Problem solved. Yes, the guard marker comes off, but the guard made a successful attack and the other creature didn't.
But that would not reflect immunity properly....
that would reflect "an immunity" but not "the immunity" that is refected in all the other rulles... consistency problem.

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Re: About Immunity
« Reply #164 on: December 02, 2015, 11:53:34 AM »
The issue isn't really the counterstrike, its that the attacker can't target anything else in the zone.

Just made me think that with some clever play you could use Altar of the Iron Guard quite strategically to guard whole zones from particular attacks.


I didn't follow the discussion, but why don't we simply change the rule, that targeting a creature is allowed, but the attack simply fizzles, doing nothing at all?
Because of the way the system works, right now you can not declare an attack, if you could target them, then you could declare an attack, it would fizzle, and the guard marker would come off. As all it takes for a "successful attack" is to target somebody.

So? Let the initial attack fail and let the guard get in his counterstrike. Problem solved. Yes, the guard marker comes off, but the guard made a successful attack and the other creature didn't.