Poisoned Blood and Barksin

[ringkichard]

Event is undefined, but it's not undefinable. We don't have to allow anarchy.

My position is that because there's basicly no restriction on what interactions can occur in Upkeep, pretty much any triggered enchantment could need to be revealed. Traps aren't specially exempted enchantments that explicitly trigger when otherwise not allowed (like Mind Shield is) they're just normal enchantments that are written under the assumption that they'll be revealed when the trigger condition is met. The Enchantment rules should not put up obstacles to the normal function of Traps and other triggered Enchantments. There has never before been a categorical difference between when triggered enchantments are revealable and the opportunities for all the rest.

Moreover, if it was intended that no enchantments could be revealed during Upkeep, we'd know about it because it'd be explicitly stated, rather than being a consequence of finely parsed rules language. The rules are not a trick, and the general appearance of the enchantment rules is overwhelmingly that enchantments can be revealed without regard to the specific phase, as no specific phase isn't mentioned. It would be my expectation that if Enchantments could not be revealed during upkeep -- as many players no doubt would want to do to save Burning or Rotting creatures with healing or lifegain -- we'd have a rule explicitly  stating that. It's too major a restriction on gameplay to be an undeclared emergent property of several other rules.

[sIKE]

There really is no debate that you can reveal an Enchantment in each Ready Stage phases of the game, the question is really about timing of when you can reveal that Enchantment.

I guess the real question now that things have been mushed and distilled down, is processing Upkeep for a Player a single event or is it an "event" when you process Upkeep with each creature/object.

[Zuberi]

Event is undefined, but it's not undefinable. We don't have to allow anarchy.

Truth, but we can't put the cart before the horse. Until "event" is defined, we can't allow enchantments to be revealed in response to them or it will be anarchy.

Not huge: there's precident from the movement steps with passage attacks, and there's a plan for normalizing those rules.

Exactly. Until "event" is given a definition, the rule should be that Enchantments can be revealed after a Phase, Step, or Activation. It is entirely possible for something to occur during a Phase that has Steps, in which case Enchantments can be revealed after any of those Steps even though it is during a Phase. It doesn't matter whether the Phase is Upkeep, Deployment, Quickcast, or an Action Phase. They're all the same for these purposes. If they contain steps, then you can reveal after any of those steps. If they don't contain steps (or an activation), then you can't reveal anything during the Phase.

I would certainly be willing to switch position once "event" had an acceptable definition, but until that time I firmly believe that any ruling relying on "events" would break the game.

[exid]

i totally agree with Zuberi!

but the "banish-attack trap-apearance of steps in the upkeep phase" problem make me think the situation isn't very confortable.

[Zuberi]

If Banish's return trip is not a teleport, which it seems likely that it is not, then it would not trigger any traps. Traps only trigger when a creature "Enters a Zone" which happens during a move action, push, or teleport. All of which basically follow the same steps. The return trip from Banish is definitely not a move action or a push, so if we also rule out a teleport then it would not trigger traps, just like being summoned by a spawnpoint doesn't trigger a trap.

Page 9 of the Rules Supplement.

[ringkichard]

That is my suspicion also, but I merely report Shad0w's statement. And lacking a firm definition of Return, I can but shrug.

Though I'm quite sure that Banish's return is not a teleport. That was brought up at least twice during the design of Astral Anchor.

[Laddinfance]

Banish's return is not a teleport. If it was the Anchor would stop it. I'll have to look into shadow's previous comments.

[sIKE]

Somewhere it is written down that the returning to a zone is not a teleport action and does not count as entering a zone.

[exid]

If Banish's return trip is not a teleport, which it seems likely that it is not, then it would not trigger any traps. Traps only trigger when a creature "Enters a Zone" which happens during a move action, push, or teleport. All of which basically follow the same steps. The return trip from Banish is definitely not a move action or a push, so if we also rule out a teleport then it would not trigger traps, just like being summoned by a spawnpoint doesn't trigger a trap.

Page 9 of the Rules Supplement.

my savior!

[exid]

I'm going to be in Dallas next week, and get to speak to Bryan in person. I'm planning to bring this up. But in the meantime the 4th printing rules are completely playable.

Something about the reveal enchantements time?

[exid]

I'm going to be in Dallas next week, and get to speak to Bryan in person. I'm planning to bring this up. But in the meantime the 4th printing rules are completely playable.

Something about the reveal enchantements time?

Is there a clarificaton yet?

[Laddinfance]

TL;DR - Follow the 4th printing rules. They are correct.

I just got home. ;-)

At BGG Con sIKE and I asked Bryan directly about revealing enchantments. We had a pretty good discussion about his answers to the two of us previously (also at BGG Cons). Throughout my time with the company Bryan has always said to reveal enchantments whenever you opponent isn't doing something. However, as noted over time we've tried to make his intention something cleaner and clearer in the rules. So, when we brought up this question to him, he was a bit torn. However, in the end he had said that we should stick with the 4th printing rules.

Basically, no you cannot reveal an enchantment in the Upkeep Phase, unless you are responding to something that legally allows the reveal of enchantments.

I hope this helps. sIKE feel free to correct me if I missed something.

[exid]

TL;DR - Follow the 4th printing rules. They are correct.

I just got home. ;-)

At BGG Con sIKE and I asked Bryan directly about revealing enchantments. We had a pretty good discussion about his answers to the two of us previously (also at BGG Cons). Throughout my time with the company Bryan has always said to reveal enchantments whenever you opponent isn't doing something. However, as noted over time we've tried to make his intention something cleaner and clearer in the rules. So, when we brought up this question to him, he was a bit torn. However, in the end he had said that we should stick with the 4th printing rules.

Basically, no you cannot reveal an enchantment in the Upkeep Phase, unless you are responding to something that legally allows the reveal of enchantments.

I hope this helps. sIKE feel free to correct me if I missed something.

This helps a lot!
It's the 4th edition rules. No approximation.
Thanks!

[DaveW]

... in the end he had said that we should stick with the 4th printing rules.

Basically, no you cannot reveal an enchantment in the Upkeep Phase, unless you are responding to something that legally allows the reveal of enchantments.

Please confirm: It is allowable to reveal an enchantment after the Upkeep Phase at the start of the Action Phase, correct? I am think that there may be some that I would want to reveal before my opponent gets in the first quick cast.

[sIKE]

This ruling covers The Ready Stage. Revealing Enchantments in the Action Stage remains the same. So before and after any Creatures Action.

As Laddin said, we did talk with Brian and this did change with the v4 rules to clean up many issues such as the one posed in the OP.

We did talk about Events and getting that all cleaned up along with the possibility of adding "Beginning" to the possibilities. But that is for the future.