Poisoned Blood and Barksin

[Sailor Vulcan]

@DaveW:
This just goes to show the type of confusion this ruling has wrought and why we should ignore it. If we allowed enchantments to be revealed after an "event" then there is nothing in the rules to say that Kelanen's method is incorrect. Who is to say that rolling the die and applying the damage aren't two separate events? Indeed, there seems to be support for that kind of judgement based on them being two separate steps during combat. Since we don't know what an event is, it is all up to interpretation and using what we know about how the game works in other cases.

Precisely so.

No no no no, this is problem created by looking for a problem. A step is a division of an event, so can not find an event inside of a step. Still awaiting the ruling on this though.

A step is a division of a phase. If a step is also a division of an event, then either an event is a division of a phase, or both steps and phases are divisions of an event.

If an event is a division of a phase, then an event would include one or more steps, plus the time between them. But we already have terminology and rules for what happens between steps and none of it uses the word "event". Given that, if a single event only includes a single step than the word "event" doesn't mean anything, it's just a step. It's like putting parentheses around a 1 and writing a x1 next to it. It's redundant.

If a phase is a division of an event, then an event must include one or more phases, plus the time between them. But we already have terminology and rules for what happens between phases, and none of it uses the word "event". Given that, if a single event only includes a single phase then the word "event" doesn't mean anything, it's just a phase. Like I said, it's just like putting parentheses around a 1 and writing x1 next to it. This is also redundant. (I'm assuming that a stage isn't a division of an event, anyways.)

Based on the information we have available, it doesn't seem any more likely that events are made of steps than that steps are made of events.

Either events are divisions of steps, in which case it breaks the game even IF you can define precisely how big a unit an "event" is, OR steps are divisions of events, in which case the word "event" is entirely meaningless.

If you are sitting in a box, and the box you are sitting in is in a house, then you are sitting in a house. Even if you are uncertain whether the box is in the house or the house is in the box, that does not change the fact that it has to be one or the other, not both. It's that simple. That is probably part of why Zuberi is so shocked that people are actually defending Laddinfance's catastrophic ruling.

I suspect that it's mainly because it was Laddinfance who made the ruling in the first place, and then Sike supported it. Laddinfance is supposed to be an authority on these matters, so people are predisposed to trust what he says about them. And then Sike, the person who does the OCTGN module for Mage Wars, was one of the first and most vocal to express agreement with it, which gave the ruling further validation. Maybe the others who supported the ruling simply trusted them to know what they were talking about, only this was a rare exception where they totally didn't.

It seems to me that Laddinfance made an honest mistake, and that triggered a chain reaction of honest mistakes. This kinda reminds me a bit of the game Telephone...

Laddinfance's ruling makes no sense, and the arguments people have made supporting it make no sense. There's no need to get defensive about that. It was an honest mistake that a lot of people made, and I am confident that Arcane Wonders will give us another ruling to rectify the first one.

[Zuberi]

@DaveW:
This just goes to show the type of confusion this ruling has wrought and why we should ignore it. If we allowed enchantments to be revealed after an "event" then there is nothing in the rules to say that Kelanen's method is incorrect. Who is to say that rolling the die and applying the damage aren't two separate events? Indeed, there seems to be support for that kind of judgement based on them being two separate steps during combat. Since we don't know what an event is, it is all up to interpretation and using what we know about how the game works in other cases.

Precisely so.

No no no no, this is problem created by looking for a problem. A step is a division of an event, so can not find an event inside of a step. Still awaiting the ruling on this though.

Says who? There's nothing in the rules to support this. Even if we did accept this, it doesn't clear up how many events are present in any given situation. It would only prevent you from having events during steps, which would clear up some issues, but it still doesn't solve the fundamental issue of one person interpreting something as a single event and another interpreting it as several, such as applying Burn damage.

[sIKE]

A step is a division of a phase.

Where in the rulebook is this stated? I have looked through several different versions of the rulebook and I can not find it.

The only steps I find are subdivisions of something else: Move Action: 6 Steps, Casting Spells 4 steps, Making an Attack 10 steps.

Once again, I keep going back to this from the rulebook:

You may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action, step, or phase, even if it is your opponent’s turn!

And from the game Round section of the manual:

The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage, and goes first whenever you must determine the order of events.

and from the phase 4: Upkeep Section:

You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order.

During the "Ready Stage" both players play simultaneously during each of its Phases, i.e. play during these phases is not: I go you go I go, but we perform the events at the same time and when a timing issue occurs the player with initiative decides what happens "when". With that said, each of the Phases in the Ready Stage are not "instantaneous" and events do happen during them. This results in Players being able to reveal their Hidden Enchantments as per the rule stated above, and remember "before" happens "after" something else.

Events are something you do during the match as a part of game play, a Move Action, Cast a Spell, Roll for Burns, and are "what you are doing" during a step, such as the actual rolling of the dice or placing damage  markers onto the creature or conjuration card. (Yes a slight modification of my position, primarily due to a through re-reading of the updated rule set, v4.0, and from the examples provided that explain the implementation of the rules.

Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed. For example, you cannot reveal a Rhino Hide enchantment after the enchanted creature takes damage from an attack, to reduce the amount of damage it received.

Here the "event" is clearly applying the damage during the "Apply Damage Step" and you have already placed the "3 Damage" marker on your Emerald Tegu as an example.

You cannot interrupt an event to reveal an enchantment. Example: You cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would have to wait until that step or action has finished.

Here it is clarified that my opponent can not reveal "Divine Protection", after I have picked up the dice and have shaken them in my hand and I am in the process of releasing the dice to roll them (the event). However if I am in the process of picking up the proper number of dice to roll, my opponent can choose to reveal that hidden Divine Protection. The result is that during the Roll Dice Step the dice I will roll would be reduced by 1. Rolling the dice on to the table is the event.

I hope, I have laid this out much more clearly than I have done before, and my mind still boggles at this whole thread. I think clear and concise rulings on what an "Event" is and the interplay with Enchantments in the Ready Stage Phases are clarified. I hope whatever the ruling are, that they make sense game play, game mechanics, and game theme wise, and uses phraseology such as (before and/or after) or (only at the end of a Phase during the Ready Stage).

[Zuberi]

I think clear and concise rulings on what an "Event" is and the interplay with Enchantments in the Ready Stage Phases are clarified.

If so, then give us these clear and concise rulings. Right now, event basically means "anything."

"The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage, and goes first whenever you must determine the order of anything."

"You always choose the order in which everything that affects your creatures and objects occurs during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order."

"Enchantments cannot affect anything that occurred before it was revealed. For example, you cannot reveal a Rhino Hide enchantment after the enchanted creature takes damage from an attack, to reduce the amount of damage it received."

"You cannot interrupt anything to reveal an enchantment. Example: You cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would have to wait until that step or action has finished."

Defining a term as "anything" is not at all clear or concise. It is very open to interpretation and will result in different interpretations for different people. We can't have everyone essentially playing a different version of the game based upon their own interpretations, and I would hope that by now you realize that what seems clear and intuitive to you isn't necessarily the same for other people.

I'm suspicious that there are common interactions that require the event language, but I can't actually think of any at the moment, so that may be pure blind prejudice on my part.

I think this may be the most important part of this discussion. There is absolutely no need for the event language. Not only is it not currently defined, but it's not used in any examples or needed to play the game. The game works fine without it, so why complicate matters? Everything can be defined in terms of phases, steps, and actions, with just a few notable exceptions:

1. Enchantment reveals. These occur between phases and steps. When both players want to resolve at the same time, initiative goes first.
2. "Before/after" effects. These also occur between phases and steps. This means they can also cause timing issues, which again results in initiative going first.
3. Activations. This is essentially just a "step" that one must take when taking a Creature Action Phase, but isn't described in such terms. Enchantment reveals are allowed after Activations as well as after Phases and Steps.

You currently cant reveal an Enchantment during a before/after effect for two reasons. First, it doesn't provide an opportunity because it lacks phases, steps, or activations. If it does involve steps, such as with an attack, then Enchantments could be revealed. Second, the rules specifically state that you can't interrupt something in progress with an enchantment reveal unless it gives said opportunity. This is a rare place in the rules where the word event could be used, because a general interpretation of "anything that happens is an event" can be used when we're basically saying Enchantments can't ever be revealed except for the very specific times mentioned elsewhere. This is the opposite of sIKE's suggestion, which would allow Enchantments to always be revealed without any restrictions unless we provide a much more specific definition of event.

If we wanted to allow Enchantments to be revealed during Upkeep, it could work similar to resolving them in conjunction with "before/after" effects. The entire phase would essentially be a big timing issue with each player wanting to resolve a host of effects at the same time and Initiative getting to resolve theirs first. Unfortunately, this timing issue would be much more difficult to resolve, because it includes mandatory effects that must be resolved before the Phase can end. This means that we can't just pass priority, starting with Initiative, until both players pass, because they may refuse to resolve an effect before their opponent resolves an effect, resulting in a stale mate. We would need brand new rules to prevent such a stale mate.

The easiest solution is to just not allow players the chance to respond to things during Upkeep. I decide my effects, you decide yours, and if there is an issue Initiative decides how it works is subtly different from the Initiative goes first model of other timing issues, like with Enchantment reveals. It requires you to lay all of your cards on the table, so to speak, which is anathema to Enchantments.

So,again I ask "why complicate matters?" Why should we bother defining "event," so that it isn't open to interpretation, and go through the trouble of coming up with rules to allow enchantment reveals to go smoothly during Upkeep when the game works perfectly fine without these things?

[wtcannonjr]

I think clear and concise rulings on what an "Event" is and the interplay with Enchantments in the Ready Stage Phases are clarified.

If so, then give us these clear and concise rulings. Right now, event basically means "anything."

"The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage, and goes first whenever you must determine the order of anything."

"You always choose the order in which everything that affects your creatures and objects occurs during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order."

"Enchantments cannot affect anything that occurred before it was revealed. For example, you cannot reveal a Rhino Hide enchantment after the enchanted creature takes damage from an attack, to reduce the amount of damage it received."

"You cannot interrupt anything to reveal an enchantment. Example: You cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would have to wait until that step or action has finished."

Defining a term as "anything" is not at all clear or concise. It is very open to interpretation and will result in different interpretations for different people. We can't have everyone essentially playing a different version of the game based upon their own interpretations, and I would hope that by now you realize that what seems clear and intuitive to you isn't necessarily the same for other people.

I'm suspicious that there are common interactions that require the event language, but I can't actually think of any at the moment, so that may be pure blind prejudice on my part.

I think this may be the most important part of this discussion. There is absolutely no need for the event language. Not only is it not currently defined, but it's not used in any examples or needed to play the game. The game works fine without it, so why complicate matters? Everything can be defined in terms of phases, steps, and actions, with just a few notable exceptions:

1. Enchantment reveals. These occur between phases and steps. When both players want to resolve at the same time, initiative goes first.
2. "Before/after" effects. These also occur between phases and steps. This means they can also cause timing issues, which again results in initiative going first.
3. Activations. This is essentially just a "step" that one must take when taking a Creature Action Phase, but isn't described in such terms. Enchantment reveals are allowed after Activations as well as after Phases and Steps.

You currently cant reveal an Enchantment during a before/after effect for two reasons. First, it doesn't provide an opportunity because it lacks phases, steps, or activations. If it does involve steps, such as with an attack, then Enchantments could be revealed. Second, the rules specifically state that you can't interrupt something in progress with an enchantment reveal unless it gives said opportunity. This is a rare place in the rules where the word event could be used, because a general interpretation of "anything that happens is an event" can be used when we're basically saying Enchantments can't ever be revealed except for the very specific times mentioned elsewhere. This is the opposite of sIKE's suggestion, which would allow Enchantments to always be revealed without any restrictions unless we provide a much more specific definition of event.

If we wanted to allow Enchantments to be revealed during Upkeep, it could work similar to resolving them in conjunction with "before/after" effects. The entire phase would essentially be a big timing issue with each player wanting to resolve a host of effects at the same time and Initiative getting to resolve theirs first. Unfortunately, this timing issue would be much more difficult to resolve, because it includes mandatory effects that must be resolved before the Phase can end. This means that we can't just pass priority, starting with Initiative, until both players pass, because they may refuse to resolve an effect before their opponent resolves an effect, resulting in a stale mate. We would need brand new rules to prevent such a stale mate.

The easiest solution is to just not allow players the chance to respond to things during Upkeep. I decide my effects, you decide yours, and if there is an issue Initiative decides how it works is subtly different from the Initiative goes first model of other timing issues, like with Enchantment reveals. It requires you to lay all of your cards on the table, so to speak, which is anathema to Enchantments.

So,again I ask "why complicate matters?" Why should we bother defining "event," so that it isn't open to interpretation, and go through the trouble of coming up with rules to allow enchantment reveals to go smoothly during Upkeep when the game works perfectly fine without these things?

+1 to this interpretation.

The rulebook changes over time seem to me to have removed (or reduced to be more precise) the term "event" in favor of more specific and consistent language. However, the term still lingers in some parts of the rules as Sike points out. I think the term "event" is intended to describe the mechanical game-required activities that take place to carry out any action or step. Whenever there is a timing issue between players we need some rules to resolve. As zuberi points out we have this with the rule that the initiative player responds first. The term "event" is not needed to define this rule. To me the action/step are the basic levels of game flow that make the game move in time.

 However, I don't know the intent of the designer. Just my two cents ...

[Boocheck]

Sometimes those Rule Discussions became another great episode of "Law & Order"

[DaveW]

Sometimes those Rule Discussions became another great episode of "Law & Order"

Not really... I enjoy "Law and Order." Some of these discussions just hurt my head.

[Sailor Vulcan]

A step is a division of a phase.

Where in the rulebook is this stated? I have looked through several different versions of the rulebook and I can not find it.

The only steps I find are subdivisions of something else: Move Action: 6 Steps, Casting Spells 4 steps, Making an Attack 10 steps.

Once again, I keep going back to this from the rulebook:

You may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action, step, or phase, even if it is your opponent’s turn!

And from the game Round section of the manual:

The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage, and goes first whenever you must determine the order of events.

and from the phase 4: Upkeep Section:

You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order.

During the "Ready Stage" both players play simultaneously during each of its Phases, i.e. play during these phases is not: I go you go I go, but we perform the events at the same time and when a timing issue occurs the player with initiative decides what happens "when". With that said, each of the Phases in the Ready Stage are not "instantaneous" and events do happen during them. This results in Players being able to reveal their Hidden Enchantments as per the rule stated above, and remember "before" happens "after" something else.

Events are something you do during the match as a part of game play, a Move Action, Cast a Spell, Roll for Burns, and are "what you are doing" during a step, such as the actual rolling of the dice or placing damage  markers onto the creature or conjuration card. (Yes a slight modification of my position, primarily due to a through re-reading of the updated rule set, v4.0, and from the examples provided that explain the implementation of the rules.

Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed. For example, you cannot reveal a Rhino Hide enchantment after the enchanted creature takes damage from an attack, to reduce the amount of damage it received.

Here the "event" is clearly applying the damage during the "Apply Damage Step" and you have already placed the "3 Damage" marker on your Emerald Tegu as an example.

You cannot interrupt an event to reveal an enchantment. Example: You cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would have to wait until that step or action has finished.

Here it is clarified that my opponent can not reveal "Divine Protection", after I have picked up the dice and have shaken them in my hand and I am in the process of releasing the dice to roll them (the event). However if I am in the process of picking up the proper number of dice to roll, my opponent can choose to reveal that hidden Divine Protection. The result is that during the Roll Dice Step the dice I will roll would be reduced by 1. Rolling the dice on to the table is the event.

I hope, I have laid this out much more clearly than I have done before, and my mind still boggles at this whole thread. I think clear and concise rulings on what an "Event" is and the interplay with Enchantments in the Ready Stage Phases are clarified. I hope whatever the ruling are, that they make sense game play, game mechanics, and game theme wise, and uses phraseology such as (before and/or after) or (only at the end of a Phase during the Ready Stage).

Oh yeah, there are steps to revealing an enchantment and steps to attacks made outside of any action phase. Thanks for reminding me of that. Again, how does that change anything else that I said?

The definition you gave for event applies to everything that happens in the game, including revealing enchantments!

If an event is merely defined as "something you do during the match as a part of game play" and includes specific physical behaviors that are not clarified in the rules, such as picking up and counting dice in your hands, and if enchantments can be revealed directly before or after any "event", then there is absolutely no reason that you can't reveal an enchantment while they're rolling, before the dice land on the table or before the result is seen. That's a blatant contradiction of your definition of event.

The event wording in the 3.3 rule book is vague enough that your definition of event could fit, if it wasn't contradictory and if it wouldn't break the game.

Furthermore, your definition of event is nowhere stated nor implied in the rules. You just came up with that definition yourself.

You are clutching at imaginary straws and pulling them out of thin air to support this position. Why are you going to so much effort? Why is it so important to you that the "event" wording is kept in the rules?

[ajbloomie]

Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed. For example, you cannot reveal a Rhino Hide enchantment after the enchanted creature takes damage from an attack, to reduce the amount of damage it received.

Hold on, here. Regardless of defining "event", Enchantments most certainly can be revealed after a step. "Roll Dice" and "Damage and Effects" are separate steps. You should be able to reveal a Rhino Hide after rolling, but before applying damage, which is functionally the same as trying to reveal a Rhino Hide during the Damage and Affects step (and what this example is expressly trying to prohibit). Where did this example come from? It seems, while technically correct in ruling (can't interrupt a step), it's made completely irrelevant by a clear allowance in the rules to reveal Rhino Hide after damage has been determined, but before it has been applied. Unless the ruling is simply to clarify that if you forgot to reveal after rolling,  it's too late? Kind of a ridiculous example to choose if that's the whole point of saying it.

More importantly, is there a reason we are ignoring the definition of "event" (albeit a bit ad hoc) in the sidebar of page 19 (Feb 2015 ed.)?

Example: you cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of its Move Action, or in the middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would have to wait until that "event" (step or action) has finished.

Clearly see "event" being defined as a step or action.

[wtcannonjr]

Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed. For example, you cannot reveal a Rhino Hide enchantment after the enchanted creature takes damage from an attack, to reduce the amount of damage it received.

Hold on, here. Regardless of defining "event", Enchantments most certainly can be revealed after a step. "Roll Dice" and "Damage and Effects" are separate steps. You should be able to reveal a Rhino Hide after rolling, but before applying damage, which is functionally the same as trying to reveal a Rhino Hide during the Damage and Affects step (and what this example is expressly trying to prohibit). Where did this example come from? It seems, while technically correct in ruling (can't interrupt a step), it's made completely irrelevant by a clear allowance in the rules to reveal Rhino Hide after damage has been determined, but before it has been applied. Unless the ruling is simply to clarify that if you forgot to reveal after rolling,  it's too late? Kind of a ridiculous example to choose if that's the whole point of saying it.

More importantly, is there a reason we are ignoring the definition of "event" (albeit a bit ad hoc) in the sidebar of page 19 (Feb 2015 ed.)?

Example: you cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of its Move Action, or in the middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would have to wait until that "event" (step or action) has finished.

Clearly see "event" being defined as a step or action.

Nice find!

First, let's remember that not everyone has the Feb 2015 ed. of the rules. As Sike notes above he is working from the version 3.3 online rules so this adds some to our confusion using written messages.

Second, the first quote you reference doesn't contradict anything in the rules. It just clarifies the timing limits associated with the steps in an action. Note the first part of that paragraph which you did not include in your quote above.

"Enchantments cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed."

The example assumes that the damage & effects step has taken place and reminds us that we cannot change past events in the game by revealing enchantments after they take effect. To clarify this further we could replace the term "event" using your sidebar reference below and the main point would now read:

"Enchantments cannot affect an action or step that occurred before it was revealed." Something like this is needed in the rules to clarify that we don't go back in time as the game state changes due to player decisions.

Third, your last quote your provided from the rulebook sidebar is the wording from the 3.3 version of the rules. The Feb 2015 ed. published in the new Core Set is not yet available online. It was changed slightly in the new version, but I would agree that this example along with the wording of the bullet point it corresponds to gives us the best answer to the intent behind the word "event" in the rules. A strict interpretation using this clarification as guidance would be that you can reveal enchantments immediately after an Action or Step.

In the Feb 2015 rulebook the options to reveal were further clarified to include immediately after any Phase.

I think this leaves open the possibility to have reveal opportunities during the Upkeep Phase, but only if a spell effect triggers one of the defined Actions in the game, which would then require players to resolve each Step in that Action. For example, there are opportunities to reveal enchantments during the Deployment Phase since Spawnpoints must follow a Cast Spell Action which triggers 4 steps.

[wtcannonjr]

Update - I just discovered that the Arena version 4 rulebook is now available in the Downloads section of the website.

Thanks for posting!

[Laddinfance]

I do try to take care of you guys ;-).

[exid]

thanks!

[ajbloomie]

First, let's remember that not everyone has the Feb 2015 ed. of the rules. As Sike notes above he is working from the version 3.3 online rules so this adds some to our confusion using written messages.

It's moot now, because the 4th edition rules are up. But for what it's worth, "Feb 2015 ed." referred to the date in which I downloaded it, because for whatever reason, I have no idea what editions I'm looking at with my own rulebooks when you guys talk about 3.3, 4, etc. There isn't anything in the actual rulebooks to denote edition that I could find. Anyway, if you want to go back, you can see that I was referring to 3.3. A definition of event was there all along. Regardless, I think we have our answer at this point.

[Zuberi]

Clearly see "event" being defined as a step or action.

I did indeed miss this. This aligns nicely with the v4 Rulebook which says enchantments can be revealed after a step, phase, or action. I personally think action is a bit unnecessary since all actions either have steps or immediately precede the Creature Action Phase ending. I think it would be better surmised as after a step, phase, or activation since revealing after an activation is clearly allowed by the bullet points on when you can reveal, and is neither a step, phase, or action itself.

This definition of event though does preclude revealing during the Upkeep Phase which lacks steps and actions.

P.S. thanks Laddinfance for uploading the v4 Rulebook.