Poisoned Blood and Barksin

[sIKE]

I think we both are saying yes, before or after an event...

[exid]

I'm only going by the 3-3 version of the rules, because that's what's online (and--I think-- that's also my physical copy). I'd love to have a copy of v.4 and a change-log, if such a thing exists.

that's my problem: i don't know witch copy i have and where to find the 4th version you talk about!

about the enchantment revealing during upkeep,
1) i think i never thought about this... but a lot of problems are minor because it's ok to reveal the enchantment at the end of the channel.

2) if i understand well, if i have 1 damage + 1 burn + 1 regenerate 2 + 1 hidden enchantement from my opponent
- i can regenerate only one damage and burn later,
- or burn first, giving my opponent the opportunity to reveal a poison blood and get no regeneration

3) i see a contradiction in the rulles: when my opponent reveals a poison blood on me, it afects my creatures, so i should decide when it occures... on my point 2) i could decide to burn, regenerate and make my opponent reveal his poison blood later!

[Zuberi]

Here is an example of the chaos this ruling has wrought. Can you reveal an enchantment after Purify removes a condition or an enchantment? An "event" has occurred within the Resolve Spell Step, so despite the step not being completed there has been an opportunity created for enchantment reveal. There is no rule that prevents revealing during a step that couldn't also be applied to the Upkeep Phase, so saying one can be broken down further also allows the other to be. Allows ANYTHING to be actually, since we don't know what in the world an event is.

Being able to reveal after an "event" with no clear definition of what the heck that means is going to allow people to reveal at ANY time because almost anything can be broken down into smaller events. The rule for not interrupting something in progress will become virtually meaningless, because I'll just argue that your something is in fact two somethings and that I'm revealing between them.

This ruling would cause so much confusion, I can't believe people are advocating for it.

For example, with Regeneration there is no place that says that all of the healing happens at once. It just happens during the Upkeep Phase. Thus, even if you choose to Regenerate before paying the Upkeep cost of Barkskin, I would argue you only get to heal 1 point of damage, and then that creates an event for me to reveal Poison Blood and prevent the second point of healing.

Any spell with multiple effects can easily be argued to have multiple events during the resolve spell step. Any attack that has effects will have multiple events occur during the damage and effects step. Leaving a zone or entering a zone can involve multiple events. Individual effects can be broken down into multiple events. With enough creativity, the whole tower crumbles and there is no way for us to squash each of these abuses individually. We need a general rule that prevents them and gives us clear directions on when enchantments can be revealed.

[sIKE]

Your mixing results and events up here. Regeneration is the event, the healing is the result. A move from one zone to the other is an event the result is the creature finishes in another zone. You cannot interrupt the movement (result) after the event has started. Otherwise as you have stated, chaos.

For casting/attacks there are very specific additional rules defined for when you can reveal: in between each step, even though the casting of the spell is the actual event.

Events really need to be defined explicitly for you, not an insult, just an observation. Events are something that you do Move/Cast a Spell/Attack/Quick Actions (like Guarding), and during Upkeep you process objects that have Upkeep based effects which results in an event and the results of the event. Example: I am going to Regenerate and remove 2 Damage from my Highland Unicorn. That is an event, the result is 2 points of damage are removed from my Unicorn. Once I state I am going to Regenerate, my opponent can no longer reveal a hidden Enchantment that would change the results of the Regenerate effect. However if I said "I am going to" and my opponent interrupts me and says I am going to reveal Poisoned Blood on your Unicorn. Then that is legal and the Finite Life trait is applied to the Unicorn overriding the Regenerate trait.

[exid]

Example: I am going to Regenerate and remove 2 Damage from my Highland Unicorn. That is an event, the result is 2 points of damage are removed from my Unicorn. Once I state I am going to Regenerate, my opponent can no longer reveal a hidden Enchantment that would change the results of the Regenerate effect. However if I said "I am going to" and my opponent interrupts me and says I am going to reveal Poisoned Blood on your Unicorn. Then that is legal and the Finite Life trait is applied to the Unicorn overriding the Regenerate trait.

as i said higher, the poison blood afects one of your creature, so you can decide to make it be revealed later!
that's a strange way to play, but it avoids a horrible "interupt"!

[Zuberi]

FYI, you can interrupt moves now by revealing in between the steps of a move action. But your arguments against revealing during a step are confusing. Before, my interpretation was that you can not interrupt a phase except after an activation or step because they are explicitly mentioned. But now you say we are also allowed after an "event." If we are, then shouldn't we always be allowed to after an event? And steps may contain multiple events just as easily as phases may. It is logically consistent that if you can interrupt one thing because it contains sub-opportunities for revealing, that you can interrupt other things that also contain those opportunities, and there is no rule that contradicts this. Then following that path of thought and the fact that we don't have a hard definition of event, we end up with the weird abuses mentioned.

Your suggested definition of an event as the combination of initiating and resolving an effect is not a bad one, but still leaves a lot of things open. Such as, I would argue that nothing is initiated during the upkeep phase. You merely resolve effects already in place. Also, this definition does not solve interrupting steps or effects that contain multiple effects within themselves. If you initiate something that involves doing multiple things, such as applying both damage and various effects during combat, can you reveal between these multiple effects or do you have to wait until the entire initiated event is complete? If it's the latter, then wouldn't that apply to initiating the upkeep phase and resolving all of its constituent effects as well?

[jacksmack]

In all the games i have played no one has ever revealed an enchantment during the upkeep phase, any one who attempted to do so agreed that it was wrong, and could only be done before.
So while on OCTGN it appears like a regrowth is being revealed DURING the upkeep due to the automation im a firm believer that everyone i have played with considered it revealed after the channeling phase, BEFORE the upkeep.

Whats next? is it possible to split channeling into steps so you reveal that harmonize you couldnt afford the round before and benefit from it in that same phase?
And if not on yourself because somebody will argue that you get your entire channeling in one go, can you then do it on your familiar / spawnpoint?


Edit:
We can now also ET essence drain around during the upkeep phase to give more than 1 creature an upkeep.

How do you roll for multi burns with a hidden healing charm? Can you roll 1 burn at a time to so you avoid a chance of killing the creature while granting healing charm to benefit fully from a high roll. Same with multiple rot's - add rots down to 1 HP, heal, then add remaing rots.

[wtcannonjr]

Here is a comparison of the rule changes on this topic between version 3.3 (online) and the version 4.0 (printed in new MWA Core Set). The red underlined text are the key changes we have been discussing.

Version 3.3 p 18.
"You may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event, even if it is your opponent's turn!"

Version 4.0 p 18.
"You may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action, step, or phase, even it is your opponent's turn!"

The respective wording is repeated in the side bar titled WHEN CAN YOU REVEAL? on p. 19 of each version of the rule set.

It seems this would support Zuberi's rationale that revealing enchantments after an "event" is no longer supported in the new rules.

This is further supported by the wording changes in the bullet points of the new side bar on p. 19. I always played that the first 5 bullet points represent the only times you can reveal an enchantment. The final bullet point which states "You cannot interrupt an event to reveal an enchantment." is more to clarify the timing of revealing enchantments during an eligible point in the round. i.e. If the initiative player is revealing an enchantment at the end of a Step, then the opponent cannot interrupt this event and the effect of the revealed enchantment will happen before any new enchantment is revealed.

Just my two cents ...

[sIKE]

Now I am frustrated, there steps when cast a spell (which as I have explained clearly is the event in question), there are no sub-events within a spell being cast. Trying real hard not to express my severe frustration about all of the sudden events are everywhere and being a part of everything. It is quite clear though not a codex entry is something that you do, not the sub-actions of the event. Rolling 5 attack dice and the event die is a step (period the end), if you wish to roll one at time that is not an event, that is the result of the step.

This is very simple and thematic, what you describe is totally not. Once again what about Quick Cast? Any finally why would magic work this way?
 

[wtcannonjr]

This is very simple and thematic, what you describe is totally not. Once again what about Quick Cast? Any finally why would magic work this way?

Here is my take on Quickcast -

Quickcast is a term used by the rules to describe both a Phase and an Action. I use the back of the rulebook summary to remind myself of this. The term appears as a Phase at the beginning and end of the Action Stage. It is also listed under the Actions section on that page with two bullet points describing when the action can be used. Once you use the Quickcast Action it moves the player to the Cast Spell Action which is defined by 4 Steps as shown in the upper right portion of the rules back page.

I use this page as a visual reminder for when an enchantment can be revealed since it identifies the Phases, Actions, and Steps that make up a single Game Round with one noted exception that I can think of - Special Actions. Some spells add special actions as effects or abilities which then become other points in the Game Round where an Enchantment can be revealed.

Note - this page was also updated in the version 4.0 rules to reflect the clarification and definitions of Actions and Steps.

[exid]

i understand that the 4th rulles version is in a box i didn't bought but not yet on the website.
will it be soon?

[Laddinfance]

i understand that the 4th rulles version is in a box i didn't bought but not yet on the website.
will it be soon?

As soon as I can. I'm talking to scott about it today.

[exid]

i understand that the 4th rulles version is in a box i didn't bought but not yet on the website.
will it be soon?

As soon as I can. I'm talking to scott about it today.

thanks!
all these rulle problems are very interesting, but if we don't read the same rulles version its harder.

[Kelanen]

Okay... I don't often post over here, but I'm a good MW tournament player (dropped one game in the last three tournaments frex) I'm good on rules, I've played various CCG's to national and ProTour level (and money finishes), and have had Judge and Rules Guru levels for some. None of that means anything for Mage Wars directly, I'm just pointing out that I'm not just a casual player, and I am quite used to picking apart rules and wordings, and reversing a whole card's effect based on the position of where the colon or comma is...

Now that I think of it, I think most people know intuitively that adramelech's touch needs to be revealed BEFORE rolling blanks for burns, not after, in order to have an effect on those burns. When the burns roll blanks and adramelech's touch has not been revealed yet, the automation on octgn causes the burns to immediately disappear, and I've yet to see anyone argue that they should have been allowed to reveal touch and preserve the burns after the fact. If you ask them, "why didn't you wait until you saw the result before revealing adramelech's touch?" they probably won't know exactly why. They likely will say that they weren't thinking about it and just playing normally. And yet they will consistently play it that way every time until you point it out to them. Or at least every time I can recall someone using Adramelech's Touch, that was how they played it. I do not remember anyone waiting until they saw the result of the burn roll before revealing adramelech's touch and paying for the burns to stay.

I have been playing this that the reveal will almost always be after a blank is rolled, but before it's applied. In just the same way as I will wait until after non-critical damage is rolled, before revealing Brace Yourself/Rhino-Hide.

Intuitively, that makes complete sense to me, and is in keeping with everything else I know (or knew, until the world just blew up!).

I'm pretty sure I've quoted the "event" language before, and it's what I've relied on. I'm firmly on the "yes, you can reveal after anything happens" faction.

Indeed.

[Beldin]

Hi guys, I am a CCG game player of a number of years and have been a combo expert that relies on the wordings of cards to be precise and changing entire combos and overturning my opponents game by reading text and spotting things that normally would get overlooked.

I have put together how I see an event to work, and it as follows:

EVENT

An event is a free action that can only happen between the following:

1) The phases of a turn, (Eg. between Channeling and Upkeep).
2) The 8 phases of combat. (Eg. between roll damage and resolve damage).
3) The 3 major phases of spell casting. (Eg. between Cast Magic and Counter Spell Step).
4) Before or after an activation of an action counter.
5) Before or after the use of a ready marker.

An event cannot interrupt something that has already started to resolve, eg a movement action, dice rolls, etc.

Once an event is in progress it is counted as a resolving action and thus cannot be interrupted.

Each event follows the following resolution:

1) Reveal Event.
2) Pay cost.
3) Resolve any modification caused by the event.

Please feel free to modify and rip apart. It is just how I personally saw this working, as this needs to be sorted out as this can win and lose matches.