Dominate the Arena: Skeelax

[Wildhorn]

The initiative mechanic is first of all important for the quickcast and action phase. Using the mechanic in other phases for events is absolutely not nessessary and complicates things more than it helps.

I believe that you and Sike are correct. I had this happen in a match once where there was an argument about when certain upkeep traits came into effect. Here was the decision (by some people over the net):

Upkeep effects happen at the same time, both you and your opponent apply all upkeep traits at once, however if there are more than one upkeep conditions that must be met for a player (for instance a burn token and regenerate) then the player getting affected by those traits decides the order.

So in this case, both the burn and the regenerate happen at the same time.

You would be right if both Skeelax and the Burned creature would belong to the same player, but when the owner of the 2 effect are different, it is initiative that decide the order. But in this case, the Burn doesn't belong to anybody, but the creature it is on does. So the argument is about, does a Burn token is "owned" by the object's owner on which it is?

[exid]

I'm not sure another interpretation is necessary... but I like to talk!

The imp gains the trait "during the upkeep phase" and "while in a zone...".
So, if, when it's your turn to make your upkeep actions (c.f. initiative), there's a moment with a burn condition, you can use the trait at this moment.

I see a problem in the case in wich a non-player-controlled object would be burnt (what about initiative?).
But I think it's not possible.

[fas723]

What is so different in this case compared to when you have a regular creature with burn and regenerate?
If the owner of the burn counter has initiative and kills the creature in the upkeep phase the regenerate never takes place. This must be the same with Skeelax. Likewise if the burn counter goes away the regenerate trait dies. That is how I have played at least...

[sIKE]

What is so different in this case compared to when you have a regular creature with burn and regenerate?
If the owner of the burn couter has initiative and kills the creature in the upkeep phase the regenerate never takes place. This must be the same with Skelaxin. Likewise if the burn counter goes away the regenerate trait dies. That is how I have played at least...

The difference is this buff is dependent upon a de-buff that can be removed during Upkeep. There no "Gaining" and "Loosing" the Regenerate trait during the Upkeep round. Regardless of the order argument here, if he gains the trait technically he has it until the beginning of the next Upkeep phase. Doesn't matter now, but if there ever is a spell or an effect that targets the Regenerate trait he would have it until next Upkeep or maybe Reset Phase.

Now I am having a bit of doubt on this but hopefully and fanncefully hope someone with the power of ruling on this comes along and clears up the issue for all.

[iNano78]

Compare:

(1) "During the Upkeep Phase, while Skeelax is in the same zone as an object with a Burn Condition, he gains the Regenerate 2 trait."

(2) "During the Upkeep Phase, if Skeelax is in the same zone as an object with a Burn Condition, he gains the Regenerate 2 trait until the end of the Phase."

Since the actual wording (1) is a "while" condition, it only applies as long as there is an object "burning."  As soon as it stops burning (e.g. the burning object is destroyed or the burn rolls a blank in absence of [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE01]Adramelech's Touch[/mwcard]), he no longer has Regenerate 2.  On the other hand, if the wording were an "if" condition (as in (2)), then one could argue that it applies as long as an object was burning at some point during the Upkeep Phase, even after any existing burn tokens are removed, regardless of who has initiative.  That is, you check to see if the condition is satisfied; if it is, he has Regenerate, regardless of whether or not the condition changes during the Phase.

(The extra bit I appended to the end of (2) just makes sure his Regenerate 2 goes away if Skeelax leaves the zone or there are no burn tokens in his zone in future game rounds; otherwise it might stay "on" for the rest of the game!)

*edit* If you really want it explicitly spelled out to work as in (2), it could be written:

(3) "At the beginning of the Upkeep Phase, if Skeelax is in the same zone as an object with a Burn Condition, he gains the Regenerate 2 trait until the end of the Phase."

This makes the timing of the condition check explicit.

[rodriguekhalil]

Compare:

(1) "During the Upkeep Phase, while Skeelax is in the same zone as an object with a Burn Condition, he gains the Regenerate 2 trait."

(2) "During the Upkeep Phase, if Skeelax is in the same zone as an object with a Burn Condition, he gains the Regenerate 2 trait until the end of the Phase."

Since the actual wording (1) is a "while" condition, it only applies as long as there is an object "burning."  As soon as it stops burning (e.g. the burning object is destroyed or the burn rolls a blank in absence of [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE01]Adramelech's Touch[/mwcard]), he no longer has Regenerate 2.  On the other hand, if the wording were an "if" condition (as in (2)), then one could argue that it applies as long as an object was burning at some point during the Upkeep Phase, even after any existing burn tokens are removed, regardless of who has initiative. That is, you check to see if the condition is satisfied; if it is, he has Regenerate, regardless of whether or not the condition changes during the Phase.

(The extra bit I appended to the end of (2) just makes sure his Regenerate 2 goes away if Skeelax leaves the zone or there are no burn tokens in his zone in future game rounds; otherwise it might stay "on" for the rest of the game!)

Then again, it depends on when you check this condition. If you do not have initiative, you have to wait for the other player to upkeep his effects and then check if your condition is met. That is not different from you first sentence's wording.

If we look at the big picture here, I don't see how this situation is different from any of the following:
- Creature with regenerate and a burn token
- Creature enchanted with Ghoul Rot and has regenerate
- Cursed Creature with regenerate and Necromancer uses his ability to pay one mana and deal extra damage (forgot the ability's name)
- Cursed creature with regenerate and Warlock uses [mwcard=MW1Q21]Moloch's Torment[/mwcard] to deal one damage.
-Druid using his Treebond Ability and regenerating and taking direct poison damage from Ghoul and from [mwcard=MW1Q21]Moloch's Torment[/mwcard]
- Mage wearing a [mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ01]Sunfire Amulet[/mwcard] and receiving any kind of direct damage during the upkeep.


If I'm not mistaken, all these situations are dealt with initiative: for instance, if a player without initative loses his creature by direct damage, it just can't regenerate.

It seems to me that, for consistency issues, we have to play it that way because this can resolve a lot of issues that can arise as new spells keep coming in.

Thematically, it also makes sens that initiative rules effects during the upkeep as it is the controlling mage who decides when to burn or poison damage a creature.

[exid]

a player chooses the order in witch events affect his creatures (rulle book), so a creature will logically regenerate before damage if it risks to die, and ater damage if it has no damages before.
but with the imp, his regeneration depends on burns on other player's creatures, that's a different situation!

but as said before, the "while" explicites that the regenerate trait will switch on/off during the upkeep phase.
the initiative decides if the the imp can act during an "on" moment (and regenerate) or an "off" moment (and don't).