Libro Mortuos vs Graveyard

[Phillus]

Can someone tell me in any situation why I would want to use Graveyard over Libro Mortuos

[Schwenkgott]

Libro -> 10 Mana
You can spawn undead in your zone. To dissolve the libro, the enemy has to move in.

Graveyard -> 14 Mana
You can only spawn in your graveyards zone. Graveyard generates mana for the first dead creature each round. It may also soak up some damage/actions. Due to its high hitpoints, it will not be destroyed for a while

Graveyard can be better than Libro, if you want your undead between yourself and the enemy. To get the mana generating bonus of the graveyard going, you have to either lose creatures (maybe spawn weak zombies or skeletons, that die easily) or you have to kill enemy creatures (your zombies with bloodthirst often have to attack certain damaged creatures and may not attack the enemy mage).

[ACG]

It is also worth noting that Graveyard can summon a wider variety of creatures than Libro.

[mwcard=DNQ05]Libro Mortuos[/mwcard] can only cast undead creatures.

[mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard] can cast any creature that is dark and nonliving.

At the moment, this just means that Graveyard can cast [mwcard=DNC04]Grey Wraith[/mwcard], while Libro cannot, so it isn't much of an advantage. In the future, however, as more dark nonliving non-undead creatures are released, Graveyard will become more appealing for the sake of variety.

[Hardcordo]

I like to have the Libro coupled with [mwcard=DNQ01]Cloak of Shadows[/mwcard] to try and get people a little closer to me and my zombies. Some people also will try to dissolve it which also brings them a little closer to my zombies or give me a chance to dissolve something or get [mwcard=MW1E14]Enfeeble[/mwcard] or [mwcard=MW1J22]Tanglevine[/mwcard] out.

[krj]

as mentioned above:
+ graveyard is harder to destroy
+ can summon Gray Wraiths and maybe more creatures in the future than Libro
+ gets extra mana from destroyed creatures
+ doesn't take slot for equipment

i prefer using Graveyard, but of course i see lot of advantages of Libro, but for my style Graveyard fits better.

[ringkichard]

Control spellbooks like mana. If a creature dies every turn, Graveyard makes *a lot* of mana.

[iNano78]

Control spellbooks like mana. If a creature dies every turn, Graveyard makes *a lot* of mana.

I'm sure I've never seen a game where a creature died every turn.  While [mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard] could theoretically channel more, I think [mwcard=MW1J10]Lair[/mwcard] is so much more consistent and predictable, especially in the early game, that it's hard to say Graveyard is worth playing.  Meanwhile, [mwcard=DNQ05]Libro Mortuos[/mwcard] is cheaper (in fact, only costs 9 if you also have a [mwcard=DNQ02]Death Ring[/mwcard]), and the pseudo-Cantrip means my opponent probably won't bother Dissolving it, so it will likely last the match.  Also, you can't get separated (by a wall, etc) from your Libro, whereas you can get separated from your Graveyard... so you can be sure you'll be able to deploy skeletons/zombies wherever you go.

[rodriguekhalil]

I'm sure I've never seen a game where a creature died every turn. 

Right, but you can destroy you own creatures. If you're using zombies, there is a particularly great synergy between [mwcard=MW1J20]Sacrificial Altar[/mwcard], [mwcard=DNJ13]Ziggurat of Undeath[/mwcard], [mwcard=DNJ01]Altar of Skulls[/mwcard], [mwcard=DNE02]Rise Again[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNI01]Animate Dead[/mwcard]. If you use the right combination, you can get the most out of every creature destroyed.

For instance: Make a [mwcard=DNC09]Plague Zombie[/mwcard] your eternal servant, destroy it with [mwcard=MW1J20]Sacrificial Altar[/mwcard], giving to another creature +2 melee and piercing +2, spreading some Rot tokens AND giving 2 mana to [mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard]... And get it back the same turn!  [mwcard=DNQ05]Libro Mortuos[/mwcard] wouldn't be as effective... 

Another one: Enchant a living creature close to death with   [mwcard=DNE02]Rise Again[/mwcard], kill it, than reanimate it and Graveyad receives its level in mana. If you have an Altar of Skulls ready, even better, you also get a skull token. By doing this, you took out one creature to the opponent, you gave yourself an additional creature and mana for another one the next round (and got close to infect all living creatures with poison damage).

  I could go on and on. The possibilities are great and not that expensive manawise. It can be slow to build and set everything up , though.


If used wisely, the Graveyard compensates for the 4 or 5  additional mana you paid more than the book rather quickly.

the pseudo-Cantrip means my opponent probably won't bother Dissolving it, so it will likely last the match.

Not so sure... Remember, you have to lose three life to get it back. I would gladly do it, but it's not a small price to pay. The Necromancer being the king reducing and limiting life, he doesn't have a lot to rely on to win back this life...

[Kharhaz]

the pseudo-Cantrip means my opponent probably won't bother Dissolving it, so it will likely last the match.

Not so sure... Remember, you have to lose three life to get it back. I would gladly do it, but it's not a small price to pay. The Necromancer being the king reducing and limiting life, he doesn't have a lot to rely on to win back this life...

Also this discussion seems to be assuming that the book has been freshly used ( no mana or spells attached).

The worst case scenario of someone dispelling the book is to break even with mana and action spent.
However, more than likely, they will getting the book back, which is three life lost, and spending another 10 mana and quick action to cast it.

Losing a round cf channeling can be detrimental in certain situations.

Also if the book has a creature attached to it, but the necro didn't cast it for some reason, then that creature is discarded when the book is destroyed; which is the equivalent to a double prizer box of cracker jack.

[iNano78]

First, Altar of Skulls doesn't gain tokens from killing your own creatures. Second, Rise Again, Animate Dead and Ancient Ziggurat only work on living creatures - and they come back with damage, have worse stats (e.g. Slow, Bloodthirsty +0), and all of those combos are so mana and action intensive that they take at least a dozen turns to set up. If your opponent hasn't killed you already, something is wrong.

I've tried the Plague Zombie / Sacrificial Altar / Eternal Servant / Graveyard trick, but I haven't won when I've managed to assemble it. Too many resources spent on a silly (but fun) combo. As usual, killing your own creatures tends not to be a very strong play.

I generally don't attach creatures I don't deploy, so that "two for one" has never been an issue. And sure, 10 mana + 3 life for 10 mana and Dissolve isn't a great trade, but again, it hasn't come up because there are generally more pressing things for my opponent to be doing. A Graveyard, on the other hand, tends to get some attention from Force Hammers, etc.

[Phillus]

Is there a time where I want both Libro Mortuos and Graveyard?

[ACG]

Is there a time where I want both Libro Mortuos and Graveyard?

You could keep Libro as a contingency plan in case Graveyard is destroyed.

Otherwise, you usually won't have enough mana to profitably use both. If you want a large swarm fast, it is generally better to just use Libro and your full action to summon them. By this method, it is possible to have 8 [mwcard=DNC24]Zombie Minion[/mwcard]s/[mwcard=DNC19]Venomous Zombie[/mwcard]s by turn 5:

Turn 1 (20): [mwcard=DNQ02]Death Ring[/mwcard] (5) + Libro Mortuos (9) = 6
Turn 2 (16+1): Zombie (6) + Zombie (6) = 5
Turn 3 (15+1): Zombie (6) + Zombie (6) = 4
Turn 4 (14+1): Zombie (6) + Zombie (6) = 3
Turn 5 (13+1): Zombie (6) + Zombie (6) = 2

You can use the extra 2 mana for a [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE04]Brace Yourself[/mwcard] if your opponent rushes. By comparison, you cannot get a similar swarm as fast using Libro+Graveyard(+Meditation amulet, generally) because you just don't have the mana.

If you want to use both, it will take you longer to set things up so that you can actually use them. One possible strategy that could work is:

Turn 1 (20): [mwcard=DNQ02]Death Ring[/mwcard] (5) + Libro Mortuos (9) = 6
Turn 2 (16+1):[mwcard=DNJ04]Graveyard[/mwcard] (14) + [mwcard=DNC23]Zombie Crawler[/mwcard] (3) = 0
Turn 3 (10+2): [mwcard=DNQ10]Meditation Amulet[/mwcard] (4) + [mwcard=DNC15]Skeletal Minion[/mwcard] (4) + [mwcard=DNC15]Skeletal Minion[/mwcard] (4) + Meditate(+3) = 3
Turn 4 (13+2): [mwcard=MW1C32]Skeletal Sentry[/mwcard](7) + [mwcard=DNC08]Unstable Zombie[/mwcard] (8 ) + Meditate (+3) = 3

After turn 4, you will have 15 mana to spend per turn and 2 discounts, which is a respectable amount. You can summon smaller skeletons to protect you when under threat, and larger zombies when reasonably safe. Your quickcast can be used to cast [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE04]Brace Yourself[/mwcard] repeatedly on yourself for protection.

Now that I think about it, the latter strategy isn't so bad after all; you just need to mix skeletons (defensive) and zombies (offensive) to protect yourself while you build up.

Makes me want to build a new necro spellbook.

[iNano78]

In my limited experience of trying to run both, it's not worth it.  Whenever I've had both spawn points out against a real opponent (vs fish-bowling), I've only been able to deploy from one per turn, which isn't worth the investment.  As ACG demonstrated, it's *possible* to deploy from both while meditating, but you have no ability to react to your opponent because all your mana is spent during the deployment phase.  It would only be worth doing against an equally slow mage who also turtles and lets you build an army.  Also, it's easy for your opponent to drop a Suppression Orb or Mordok's Obelisk to foil your plans after you've invested in spawn points and a horde of creatures.  Or he could simply Force Push or Teleport you away from your Graveyard and wall it in, effectively separating you (and himself) from most of your slow/lumbering creatures, which will spend the next couple turns fighting through the wall while you take huge amounts of damage (which, by the way, can happen if you just use a Graveyard, but with only one spawn point, at least you'll have enough mana to get Nullify and/or Eagleclaw Boots equipped to deter such shenanigans).