Lion Savagery timing question and Slow effect

[sIKE]

Overloaded the word Action have we? Move Action, Actions Phase, Creatures Action, and I am sure there are a couple I have missed.

[Zuberi]

2. By the literal meaning of the Codex entry for Slow, merely taking a move action should end the creatures activation.
Quote from: CODEX
If this creature takes a move action, its Action Phase immediately ends.
This would end the creature's action at movement step 1, when the movement is declared. This is obviously not correct.

If the Codex was the only document that we had, then you may actually be correct, although even the Codex suggests that this effect happens after the move with the very next sentence. However, we also have the Rules and Codex Supplement which clearly states that you check whether or not the action is possible when you go to declare the action and that afterwards Slow will not cancel the action. Therefore, you can indeed complete the initial move. Have I already taken a move action? No. Thus I can go ahead and declare one. Now that I've declared a move action, Slow can not cancel it.

3. We can see further incompatibility in the FAQ's opening paragraph:

It is not at all incompatible. It clarifies that gaining the Slow trait after initiating an action will not cancel the action, which is exactly what your problem was with being able to Move at all while Slow. This makes it a very useful and appreciated clarification.

Taking the Codex literally, the creature shouldn't be able to check anything or be in a position to try to declare anything, because its activation should be over immediately after moving.

Which is exactly why I said Cheetah Speed will not work to allow you to take your action.

The example treats the rules for Slow as if it meant, "If this creature takes a move action, it cannot take further actions during this activation."

None of the examples treat it that way. The first example clearly shows the Slow trait ending the creature's Action Phase. The second involves gaining the Slow trait after declaring an additional action. The third involves losing the Slow trait before it can take effect. None of these are inconsistent with Slow ending the Action Phase.

I will add that I would strongly support your suggested change to make slow merely prevent taking additional actions, checked at the time you would declare said action. But until such a change is made, that is not how it currently works.

[ringkichard]

None of the examples treat it that way. The first example clearly shows the Slow trait ending the creature's Action Phase. The second involves gaining the Slow trait after declaring an additional action. The third involves losing the Slow trait before it can take effect. None of these are inconsistent with Slow ending the Action Phase.

The FAQ describes the method for applying Slow in a way that can never happen if we accept the Codex literally.

1. We are told that the rules check to see if a creature can take actions when that action is declared.
2. The FAQ says that Slow can therefore prevent a creature from taking an action as long as the trait is applied before the creature declares.
3. If Slow really ended a creature's activation without an opportunity to reveal a Cheetah Speed, Slow would never trigger the rules test the FAQ describes.
--

Let's take the examples one at a time.

Example: A creature begins its Action Phase by taking a move action to move into another zone.  After it moves into the new zone, the opponent reveals an Enfeeble enchantment on the creature, which gives it the Slow trait.  The creature was planning to make a quick melee attack on an enemy creature in the zone it just entered.  However, because it acquired the Slow trait before it makes the quick action melee attack, it can no longer take that action and must end its Action Phase instead.

This example says that
1. The creature has Slow
THEREFORE
2a. The creature cannot attack and
2b. The creature "must end its Action Phase instead"

You're arguing a different thing
1. The creature has Slow
THEREFORE
2. The creature's Action Phase ends
THEREFORE
3. The creature cannot attack

Example: The same creature above enters the new zone and the opponent does not reveal Enfeeble on it, yet.  It then declares a quick action melee attack against an enemy creature in that zone. During that melee attack, the opponent reveals the Enfeeble enchantment on the creature, giving it the Slow trait. Since it acquired the Slow trait after it has already started its attack action, the Slow trait does not affect or prevent that attack from continuing.

This is again written in terms of "preventing that attack" and not in terms of "ending that creature's action phase".

Example: A zone enchantment gives all creatures in that zone the Slow trait. A creature begins its Action Phase in that zone by taking a move action to move out of the zone. It has the Slow trait as it moves out of the zone, but as soon as it completes its move action it no longer is Slow. After moving out of the zone it may now take a quick action.

I've actually got a number of notes on this example, some of which may be relevant

1. If Slow did, in fact, end a creature's Action Phase as part of declaring the first move action (which I don't think either of us are arguing for, right?) this example would be wrong, because the creature's Action Phase would be over when it finished moving, and it wouldn't matter if it was Slow or not at that point.

2. Under the current rules, this example does actually have a small error: the creature loses Slow during the "Move To a New Zone" step, which is before the final "Entering Zone Triggers" step, and well before the end of the movement action. It's not quite the case that "as soon as it completes its move action it no longer is Slow." That actually happens during the move action. I suppose it's technically true, in the sense that "as soon as it's Sunday, Friday is over" would be true, but it's a bit misleading.

3. This example, written as it is, says that Slow is checked after completing the move action. But it doesn't say exactly when that check happens.

Usually, checks happen at the start of actions or phases, and we have reason to believe that Slow is no exception. The FAQ says, in the first sentence of the entry, "A creature checks whether or not it can take an additional action at the moment it would declare the action." To me that sounds like "Slow is checked by the rules when a creature tries to declare an action."

This would be in keeping with the precedent set by Necropian Vampiress using its ability to Fly and avoid gaining Hindered when it takes its move action.

I propose that the order of play is as follows:
1. Move Action completes.
2. Enfeeble is revealed after the Move Action. The Creature gains Slow.
3. Cheetah Speed is revealed after the Move Action. The Creature gains Fast, and therefore loses both Fast and Slow. No further enchantments are revealed.
4. Attack Action is declared.
5. Action legality is checked, and since the creature doesn't have Slow, everything continues as normal.

The important key to this proposal is that Slow isn't checked when the Enfeeble is revealed, but only when the creature tries to act. Much the same way that you can reveal Rhino Hide whenever you want, but Armor +2 is only checked when you get to the Apply Damage step.

--

I will add that I would strongly support your suggested change to make slow merely prevent taking additional actions, checked at the time you would declare said action. But until such a change is made, that is not how it currently works.

I try hard to separate my advocacy for errata from my judgement of What The Rules Are. But you're correct that I would like the rules to be as I describe them, in addition to thinking that they are that way already.

[Zuberi]

It is late, and you have a lot to respond to, so let me first apologize for not giving it the full attention that it deserves, but I do want to quickly summarize some things before I hit the hay.

First, I think part of our difference is in that you believe that the Slow trait is checked for at specific times. This is not the case. The slow trait is in constant effect. Either you have it, or you don't. The FAQ describes a method for checking if an action is possible, not for checking if the creature is Slowed. You are correct that if the creature is actually slowed, it would never get to that check, but the whole clarification is regarding how to handle gaining/losing the slow trait. So it is basically just saying that gaining slow after you declare an action has no effect.

Second:

This example says that
1. The creature has Slow
THEREFORE
2a. The creature cannot attack and
2b. The creature "must end its Action Phase immediately instead"

I actually am advocating this. The difference is that you left out the word "immediately". The codex is quite clear that your Action Phase ends immediately, meaning there is no chance for response.

[ringkichard]

As far as I can tell, the word *immediately* has no actual rules meaning in Mage Wars. It's not defined anywhere, and has caused problems in the past, iirc. It's something of a relic from MtG style thinking where different things happen at different "speeds" but Mage Wars just doesn't work that way.

I think I've said my peace: nothing to do but wait for Laddin to adjudicate.

[DaveW]

I'm not sure who I am agreeing with here, but it seems pretty clear to me (FWIW... myself not being anyone anywhere near official... just a simple reading of the rules and codex).

From the Codex on "Slow"

A creature checks whether or not it can take an additional action at the moment it would declare the action. If it acquires the Slow trait before it takes the action, it may not be able to take the action. If it acquires the Slow trait after it is already in the process of taking an action, the Slow trait will not prevent or restrict it from taking that action.

So, case in point:

1) Creature with hidden friendly Cheetah Speed and hidden unfriendly Enfeeble activates.
2) Neither enchantment is revealed before the declaration to move is made
3) Creature moves one zone
4) Enfeeble is revealed; Creature gains the Slow condition

At this point, if the creature declares that it wants to do anything else (i.e. make a quick attack, move again, etc.) it checks to see whether it can do so, and finds that it cannot since it is slowed.

The "because it acquired the Slow trait before it makes the quick action melee attack, it can no longer take that action and must end its Action Phase instead" portion of the first example simply presumes that the creature does not lose the Slow condition before declaring the action. (It is an example where there apparently is no recourse to gaining the Fast trait.)

In fact, the rules and codex document seems to make specific provision for the loss of the Slow condition, as it says "[L]ikewise, if it loses the Slow trait just before it would take an action, it might be able to take an action."

So, in continuing the action, from the above, we would have:

5) Cheetah Speed is revealed; Creature loses the Slow condition
6) Creature declares a quick action that would have been forbidden if it had the Slow condition
7) Creature checks whether if can take that action, and finds that it is able to do so (since it is not Slow)
8 ) Creature takes the action

The simple act of gaining the Slow condition does not require the creature to immediately end its action phase. This happens only if the creature declares an action that would be prohibited while the having the Slow condition.

The "may not be able to" phrase in the rule quoted above does not prevent anything... it just says that this might be the situation under some circumstances. For example, I may not be able to eat dinner tonight (presuming I don't make anything, don't have money to order anything, etc.) does not preclude me from eating dinner tonight if someone invites me over to share in their meal.

[Zuberi]

Again, the only thing you are doing when you go to declare an action, according to the Rules and Codex Supplement, is seeing if the action is possible. It doesn't say that this is when you see if your Action Phase ends due to Slow. There is nothing here, nor in the examples, that contradicts or overrides the fact that Slow ends your Action Phase immediately if you have taken a move action.

Immediately doesn't need a specific Mage Wars definition. It is plain English. It means: "without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once" It's not a relic and it's not something taken from another game. It's part of the English language and means that there is no time during which other things may occur first.

[sIKE]

Again, the only thing you are doing when you go to declare an action, according to the Rules and Codex Supplement, is seeing if the action is possible. It doesn't say that this is when you see if your Action Phase ends due to Slow. There is nothing here, nor in the examples, that contradicts or overrides the fact that Slow ends your Action Phase immediately if you have taken a move action.

Immediately doesn't need a specific Mage Wars definition. It is plain English. It means: "without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once" It's not a relic and it's not something taken from another game. It's part of the English language and means that there is no time during which other things may occur first.

I think this is as the rules are written, though I am not inclined to think that this is the intent. I would think, just like everything else in the game, you would process the stack and effects and you would end up with your result. Poor wording is my hope....meaning if you end up with the Slow trait its over, otherwise move.

[Kharhaz]

Again, the only thing you are doing when you go to declare an action, according to the Rules and Codex Supplement, is seeing if the action is possible. It doesn't say that this is when you see if your Action Phase ends due to Slow. There is nothing here, nor in the examples, that contradicts or overrides the fact that Slow ends your Action Phase immediately if you have taken a move action.

Immediately doesn't need a specific Mage Wars definition. It is plain English. It means: "without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once" It's not a relic and it's not something taken from another game. It's part of the English language and means that there is no time during which other things may occur first.

I think this is as the rules are written, though I am not inclined to think that this is the intent. I would think, just like everything else in the game, you would process the stack and effects and you would end up with your result. Poor wording is my hope....meaning if you end up with the Slow trait its over, otherwise move.

I don't know.

Our jokes about the rules usually end with, "Zuberi knows more about how the Mage Wars rules works than Arcane Wonders"

While I maintain I am 100% right on all accounts regardless of logic or reason suggesting otherwise; I learned this lesson sometime back in another RAW vs intent discussion: Zuberi is right 11 out of 10 times. 


To the point at hand, the wording here is immediately. Immediately is also used throughout the rules to note specific "un interruptible" (FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM) effects

Attaching a spell to a spellbind weapon happens immediately when the object enters play

The cost associated with pet markers / bloodreaper

From trap triggering:
"To trigger a trap, a creature must move into the zone (by taking a move action, being Pushed, or Teleported into the zone.) The trap spell is resolved immediately after the creature has moved into the zone, and it must be resolved before the creature can do anything else. Often, the trap will make an attack against the moving creature. If the effect of the trap spell prevents the creature from acting (by Stunning it, for example), the creature’s Action Phase ends immediately."

If a mandatory or single use enchantment is revealed at any time other than the event for which it is supposed to trigger, it has no effect and is immediately destroyed and discarded.

As per the quickcast ability:
"•   Immediately before or after any creature you control takes its Action Phase"

(I do believe this would mean that if you activate a creature, completed its turn, and then revealed an enchantment you would not be able to use your quickcast until another opportunity arises. *Would need to ask Zuberi to confirm * )

[ringkichard]

Ok, since we're doing the immediately thing, here's a list of all the places the core set rules use the word immediately.

QUICKCAST ACTION
A quickcast action is a special action that only a Mage may take during a round, in addition to his regular actions
during his Action Phase. This action can only be used to cast one quick spell (a spell with the quick action symbol), and cannot be used to take any other action.

You can use your quickcast action at three times during the Action Stage:
• During the First Quickcast Phase
• Immediately before or after any creature you control takes its Action Phase
• During the Final Quickcast Phase

As we famously know, this doesn't actually have to be immediately before or after the Action Phase. You can use a Wizard's Tower or whatever in between there.

In fact, the next time the rule is written,

Remember that before you activate a creature (including your Mage), or immediately after you have completed its Action Phase, you can use your quickcast action (if your quickcast marker is active).

it doesn't even say immediately before.

When discussing the mana cost of revealing enchantments

The second cost, next to the open eye, is the reveal cost, which you may pay when the spell is revealed. When an enchantment is revealed, if the reveal cost is not paid, because you can’t pay it or choose not to, the spell is destroyed immediately without effect.

Here's an interesting one:

Revealing Enchantments
Important: Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden! You may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event, even if it is your opponent’s turn! This is a “free action” that does not require you to activate a creature or flip an action marker (See sidebar “When Can You Reveal?”).

If we're taking the Codex's "immediately" literally, should we take this one literally too? What happens when the codex says that the action phase immediately ends, but the rules say that I can immediately reveal an enchantment? Are you sure the phase ends first?

There's six samples of immediately in the sidebar on page 19.

When Can You Reveal?
You can reveal an enchantment immediately after
any action or event in the game:
• At the end of any Phase of the game round.
Example: An Essence Drain can be revealed at
the end of the Reset Phase, so that it will take
effect during the Upkeep Phase.
• Immediately after a creature is activated, before it
chooses its actions for the turn.
Example: You could reveal Chains of Agony
when your opponent activates his creature. If the
creature moves that turn, it will take damage.
• Immediately after a creature completes its move
action, but before it takes a quick action.
Example: After a creature moves into a zone, but
before it can make an attack, you could reveal
Sacred Ground.
• At the end of any of the eight steps of an attack or
three steps of casting a spell.
Example: After the Avoid Attack Step of an attack,
you could reveal the Rhino Hide enchantment on
your creature to reduce the amount of damage it
will take from that attack.
• You can reveal an enchantment immediately
after it is cast, right after the Resolve Spell Step.
When an enchantment is “resolved” it is placed
face down as a hidden enchantment. Then,
immediately after it has resolved, you may choose
to reveal it at the end of that Step.
• You cannot interrupt an event to reveal
an enchantment.
Example: You cannot reveal an enchantment on a
creature in the middle of its Move Action, or in the
middle of rolling dice during an attack. You would
have to wait until that “event” (step or action) has
finished.

Revealing Enchantments Example: The Warlock
has placed an enchantment on an enemy Wolf.
When his opponent activates the Wolf, the Warlock
could reveal the enchantment immediately, before
the Wolf takes an action. The Warlock decides to
wait. The Wolf begins to move into another zone.
The Warlock cannot interrupt its movement. He
must wait until the Wolf is done moving before he
will have another chance to reveal his enchantment.
Again, he waits. Now the Wolf takes a quick action
to attack the Warlock. After the Declare Attack step,
he decides it is time to reveal his enchantment: it’s
Agony! The Wolf will roll 2 fewer attack dice when it
reaches the Roll Dice step of its attack.

None of these use immediately in any particularly strict way. It's actually starting to come off as a linguistic tic of the rules writer. 

There's two of them on this paragraph about traps

To trigger a trap, a creature must move into the
zone (by taking a move action, being Pushed, or
Teleported into the zone.) The trap spell is resolved
immediately after the creature has moved into the
zone, and it must be resolved before the creature
can do anything else. Often, the trap will make an
attack against the moving creature. If the effect
of the trap spell prevents the creature from acting
(by Stunning it, for example), the creature’s Action
Phase ends immediately.

And another one

If a mandatory or single use enchantment is revealed at any
time other than the event for which it is supposed to trigger,
it has no effect and is immediately destroyed and discarded.
You cannot hold the revealed spell, to use its effect at a later
time. For example, if a Block spell is revealed when there is no
attack, it has no effect and is destroyed and discarded instead.
Note: A mandatory enchantment must be revealed when
triggered, but you are not required to pay the reveal cost.
For example, if your Block spell is triggered by a weak attack,
you could choose not to pay the 2 mana reveal cost to avoid
the attack. In this case just destroy the enchantment, it has
no further effect.

There's one for Spellbinding

When you cast a spell with the Spellbind trait, you may immediately bind a spell to it. You can choose any spell from your spellbook that fulfills the  limitations on the Spellbind object. For example, the Mage Wand can only bind an incantation spell, so you could not bind an attack spell or enchantment to it. Place the bound spell face down under the Spellbind object.

There's entries for Pet and Bloodreaper

Beastmaster Pet
The Beastmaster has the ability to bond an animal to be his
personal Pet. When a friendly animal creature is Summoned,
the Beastmaster can make it his Pet. He does this by placing
his special “Pet” marker on the animal and paying mana
equal to the animal’s Level+1. This
is done immediately at the time
the animal is Summoned.

When a friendly demon creature is Summoned, the Warlock
can make it his Bloodreaper. He does this by placing his
special “Bloodreaper” marker on the demon, and losing Life
equal to the demon’s Level+1. This
is done immediately at the time the
demon is Summoned. The Warlock
moves his Life status marker down
on his Mage status board to record
the amount of Life he has lost.

One for charge that's interesting

Charge +X
Creature gains +X attack dice for its very next melee attack, if it makes that
attack immediately after it takes a move action, and moves at least 1 zone.

Just to clarify, I do get the Charge bonus if there's an enchantment revealed between the move action and the attack action, right?

And lastly, the one for Slow, which is how this whole thing exploded.

Slow
This creature is very slow. If this creature takes a move action, its Action
Phase immediately ends. It does not get to take a quick action after moving.
If a Slow creature gains the Fast trait, both traits are canceled out.

I think it's pretty clear from the other ways immediately is used, it doesn't mean any special rules like, "and you can't reveal an enchantment here because it happens super fast" it just means, "do this next." Saying "end the Action Phase Immediately" doesn't take priority over "you may reveal immediately after any action or event".

[Zuberi]

@sIKE: I am indeed just advocating Rules as Written. I'm not making any guesses at the intent.

@ringkichard: Touche, sir. You have been remarkably thorough in proving that the word immediately does not necessarily prevent other events from occurring beforehand, and I tip my hat to you. I still don't believe that immediately is a meaningless word, but there is indeed the possibility that multiple effects all try to happen immediately and since they can't happen simultaneously it does allow for immediate events to be interrupted. Particularly in this case, as you pointed out, both the effect of slow and the revealing of an enchantment are attempting to occur immediately after the movement ends.

I believe we would resolve this like any other timing issues then. The players would decide the order of events themselves, with initiative stepping in if multiple players control these events but otherwise the order is simply decided by the person taking their turn. Note that in this case, the person moving the creature would decide when the Slow trait ends their Action Phase, since that is a trait of their creature regardless of where the trait comes from. This would mean, that yes indeed you could reveal enchantments, including a Cheetah Speed, to cancel Slow before ending your Action Phase.

I bow to your wisdom sir, and withdraw my claims.

[ringkichard]

Frankly, it's a mess, and I never realized how messy 'til I researched it; your position is as compatible with the text as mine +/- the linguistic interpretation of a single word, and no matter what gets ruled there's going to need to be "new law".

I know we both want the same outcome from the change, and I think of our rules debates as a good way to hash out the issues involved in difficult questions so Bryan, Aaron, et al can make an informed decision without doing 15 hours of research themselves. If there were a single proper answer to the question we'd both have reached it thousands of words ago.

[Kharhaz]

If there were a single proper answer to the question we'd both have reached it thousands of words ago.

Well where is the fun in that?

[DaveW]

There is nothing here, nor in the examples, that contradicts or overrides the fact that Slow ends your Action Phase immediately if you have taken a move action.

Would you please help me see where this is a "fact" in the rules (or codex)? I don't get it.

[Zuberi]

Would you please help me see where this is a "fact" in the rules (or codex)? I don't get it.

Certainly. The Codex entry for Slow states: "If this creature takes a move action, it's Action Phase immediately ends."

Now, per the discussion with ringkichard it was pointed out that you are also technically revealing your enchantments immediately after the move action as well. Or, in the case of Enfeeble after a move, both the requirement to end your Action Phase and the revealing of additional enchantments occur immediately after revealing Enfeeble. Because of this, you are actually able to choose the order of events and reveal enchantments before ending your Action Phase and I was mistaken in all my previous posts that claimed otherwise. I apologize for my mistake and any confusion that I caused. If you want to reveal Cheetah Speed first, it will cancel the Slow trait and allow you to avoid ending your Action Phase.