October 31, 2024, 06:44:48 PM

Author Topic: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)  (Read 14563 times)

Borg

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2014, 04:15:45 AM »
Since you run only 4 enchantments I would include a [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ01]Harshforge Monolith[/mwcard]
For a measly 2 SP that one can hit home very hard against enchantment heavy builds and quickly tip the scales for you.

Very few people on this site seem to realize the power of that card as evidenced by the lack of discussion about it ( no real in depth discussion I could find anyway ) and the absence of it in most decks.

I posted a deck built to use it ( Meditation Lair ) and so far not a single response or remark about it, meaning everybody knows and uses this card already or ... they don't ... and haven't come around to understanding the big impact of this card yet.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 09:29:59 AM by Borg »
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Maverick

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2014, 04:26:47 PM »
Sorry for the late replies I have been away from the forums for a bit.

Talos was included as an Easter egg to see if people were paying attention. Yes he cannot be summoned but as he was free I thought it would be funny to throw him in anyways. I also have the ability to tell my opponents between games that "I run Talos in this book so watch out!". I am a sick person I know.  ;D

On the issue of Rust vs. Acid Ball. Acid Ball was included with the idea that by the time you would actually cast it the damage race has already begun. Any mana expenditure or action on your part had better be doing damage of some sort unless you have a very good reason to the contrary. In theory and according to the math it works perfectly. However in practice I am noticing I only ever roll 1 corrode with acid ball and all the damage is absorbed by the remaining armor of my opponent. I am considering replacing one of the Acid Balls with a Rust purely because my dice rolls are so terrible. However for people who were not cursed by the dice gods during a lunar eclipse while the planets were aligned I would recommend sticking to the Acid Balls as statistically they are the superior choice.

The Skeletal Knights have won me a few games now and I can vouch for how awesome they are. They do need a bit more support then the Knight of Westlock in the armor department but otherwise have a lot of staying power and damage potential. The Standard bearer and the Armory usually solve the armor issue. Don't forget your Veteran tokens because the Skeletal Knights benefit immensely from the extra armor they provide.

During a game this weekend Harshforged Monolith was recommended to me by another player as well. I know it is a great card but this deck is starved for book points and I am not sure what I would drop to put it in. It is a consideration I am giving a lot of thought though. Honestly there are a ton of cards I would like to include but the core book concept of out of school creatures forces me to run a pretty lean set of cards. Still, I can vouch it is worth it from my results.
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Maverick

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2014, 04:34:58 PM »
I just noticed that you have Talos, but no Altar of Domination. ; )  --Which probably means this spellbook is probably in effect 122 points, btw...

Talos is free to include in your spellbook. The lack of Altar of Domination was an intentional design decision.
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sdougla2

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2014, 05:18:14 PM »
Acid Ball does damage before the Corrode is applied, and has a 1/3 chance of only applying 1 Corrode. Overall, due to enchantments being more fragile than conditions except against the Priestess, I would probably give the edge to Acid Ball in a vacuum, but I value Rust more highly for Warlocks. In addition, Rust can't be dodged with defenses. Corrode is the big reason I've started to value Defenses more than I did before, as it makes casting Acid Ball on my creatures (in particular my mage) more uncertain. So I wouldn't say it's as cut and dried as Acid Ball is statistically better than Rust. There are more factors at play.
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Maverick

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2014, 06:07:20 PM »
Acid Ball does damage before the Corrode is applied, and has a 1/3 chance of only applying 1 Corrode. Overall, due to enchantments being more fragile than conditions except against the Priestess, I would probably give the edge to Acid Ball in a vacuum, but I value Rust more highly for Warlocks. In addition, Rust can't be dodged with defenses. Corrode is the big reason I've started to value Defenses more than I did before, as it makes casting Acid Ball on my creatures (in particular my mage) more uncertain. So I wouldn't say it's as cut and dried as Acid Ball is statistically better than Rust. There are more factors at play.

In the context of this books design Acid Ball is statistically better. An action that does potential damage is better than an action that does no potential damage when the goal is to kill the opponent in the shortest possible time frame. In an attrition scenario it would be more of a debate with many points going towards Rust but we are talking a burst damage scenario. I will break down the merits and flaws of both cards for new players reading this.

ACID BALL: An Attack spell that statistically does 2  acid damage and 2 corrodes. 1 of the damage is statistically a critical hit that bypasses armor.
STRENGTHS: Causes minor damage while removing armor. Against 1 or less armored opponents damage is potentially 1 or 2 points higher. Removing Corrodes can be action and mana intensive.
WEAKNESSES: Subject to defense rolls. Results vary based on dice rolls. Corrodes are removable by replacing the armor source (if you have a duplicate), a Priestesses ability, and a select few rarely included cards. Vulnerable to Block.

RUST: A Curse Enchantment that gives a creature -2 armor.
STRENGTHS: Reliable application with an effect that is not based on dice rolls. Not subject to removal using methods that remove Corrodes. Synergy in curse or enchantment focused books.
WEAKNESSES: Removed by vast array of cards a few of which are auto includes in most spellbooks. Vulnerable to Harshforged Monolith or effects that swap enchantments between creatures. Completely ineffective on unarmored creatures. Vulnerable to Nullify.
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BoomFrog

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2014, 06:43:29 AM »
You missed a big plus of rust. You can cast it preemptively and flip it when needed. If you need to use an acid ball your opponent probably benefited from his armor against at least one attack which means lost damage.

Not saying you need rust, just saying it's the biggest pro on rusty in my book.

Maverick

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2014, 02:41:49 PM »
You missed a big plus of rust. You can cast it preemptively and flip it when needed. If you need to use an acid ball your opponent probably benefited from his armor against at least one attack which means lost damage.

Not saying you need rust, just saying it's the biggest pro on rusty in my book.

Something to keep in mind is that is also a disadvantage of Rust for 3 reasons.

1.If the opponent never casts an armor source the action and mana are wasted.
2. The facedown enchantment is vulnerable to dispelling before it ever gets flipped meaning you may not get use out of it in a game.
3. The Acid Ball still statistically does at least 1 critical damage on cast meaning it is forward pressure AND armor degradation where Rust is only armor degradation.

In a drawn out battle with extra unneeded actions or if you have good deck synergy Rust can have more going for it. In a damage race however Acid Ball wins out (Statistically) hands down. It also still functions as a cheap attack spell doing 1-6 damage (Statistically 4) if the opponent has no armor to speak of. Every damage counts.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 03:16:48 PM by Maverick »
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sdougla2

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2014, 06:05:36 PM »
The expectation damage for Acid Ball against an unarmed Target is 11/3 if I'm doing my math right.

E[Damage] = E[X] + E[Y]

Where X is the damage from attack dice and Y is the damage from the effect die.

E[X] = 2*(1/3)*[0 + 1 + 2] = 2

E[Y] = (1/3)*1 + (2/3)*2 = 5/3

=> E[Damage] = 11/3

Doing slightly less than 4 damage on average for 5 mana against an unarmed target is pretty bad. You're much better off playing Hurl Rock or Flameblast as an attack spell. If you consider other options, Bear Strength is superior if you'll get off at least 2 attacks.

The question of Acid Ball vs Rust depends largely (assuming you don't have a particular reason to value one over the other such as Curse Weaving or Smoldering Curses) on how many attacks you're likely to get in with the armor reduction. Sure, the 2 die attack may help, but against 2 armor, that's only an average of 1.11 damage.

Let's say that you're making 5 dice attacks, since you're focused on creatures that make 5 dice attacks. The relevant question then is how many 5 dice attacks do you need to make for the expectation damage with Rust to be better than the expectation damage with Acid Ball. To simplify the calculation, let's assume the target is at 2 armor before the armor reducing effect is applied.

E[A] will be the expected damage from a single 5 dice attack.

Rust: E[Ar] = 5

Acid Ball: E[Aa] = (4.13)(1/3) + (5)(2/3) = 4.71

If we set nE[Aa] + 1.11 = nE[Ar], and solve for n, we get the number of attacks for which the expected damage output from the two investments is the same.

This gives n = 3.84

That means that you're statistically better off playing Rust if you will make 4 5 dice attacks before the effect is eliminated against a target that had 2 armor before having their armor reduced. Now, again, Rust is easier to remove for most mages, but I still think you're pushing Acid Ball over Rust more than is justified on a statistical basis. You're going to need to make more than 4 attacks at that strength to win.
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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2014, 06:10:25 PM »
Unless your fighting Zombies and that critical damage just rocks, at least from the Corrode side of things....
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sdougla2

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2014, 06:12:16 PM »
If you're playing aggro, you don't want to kill zombies, you want to kill the enemy mage.
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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2014, 06:23:24 PM »
If you're playing aggro, you don't want to kill zombies, you want to kill the enemy mage.
Beside the point........Acid Ball works well on zombies.....
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Maverick

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2014, 06:52:54 PM »
Though there are comparably priced attack spells that do better damage ie. Hurl Rock. All books do not always run them. In this book I personally only run 1 Hurl Rock. Most competitive books do however run either Rust or Acid Ball. The difference is that Acid Ball still serves a purpose against an unarmored opponent where Rust has no utility outside it's primary use other than maybe baiting a nullify. If you have no other attack spells and need a quick spell that does damage Acid Ball starts looking really appetizing. Sometimes I use them specifically to flush out a defense roll or a suspected face down block.

Against an unarmored opponent Acid Ball does not fall very far behind Hurl Rock on average damage.
Acid Ball: 1-6 damage. Average of 4
Hurl Rock: 0-10 damage. Average of 5. Chance to daze.

Unless you are running Sectarus Rune Sword (spelling?), Fellella pixie companion, the male Warlock, or some other enchantment synergy combination it is not optimal to use Rust over of Acid Ball. Acid Ball has the same game impact 66.6% of the time but is also harder to counter, and deals damage.
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Maverick

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Re: Knightmare (Bloodwave Warlord Spellbook)
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2014, 06:59:58 PM »
If you're playing aggro, you don't want to kill zombies, you want to kill the enemy mage.

This is true. My last game was against a Necromancer and I intentionally summoned a Knight of Westlock and let it get damaged so the blood thirsty zombies had to chew on it. While they wasted their attacks against his at that point 6 armor the rest of my minions went around the swarm and focused down the enemy mage.
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