Nullifying a Reverse Magic

[Wildhorn]

I've heard that ruling on reverse attack before, but I disagree. Reverse attack does not say you have left the "avoid attack" step. it just clarifies that the future steps have a different target. You reveal reverse attack in the middle of the avoid attack step, so there is plenty of avoid attack step left to use a defense, mandatory reveal a block, ect. The ruling is that once reverse attack is revealed, you are no longer in the avoid attack step.  I feel like I'm hogging the thread to rant on reverse attack though, so I'll stop.

I guess for reverse attack (but not reverse magic), the original attack is the "controller" of the attack so they can do things like use Akiros Favor to mitigate the damage.  I can now see how block and nullify are different though. block triggers on any attack, but nullify only triggers on an enemy "attack"(spell thingy)

To clarify you how Reverse Attack works:

Player 1 has an hidden Block/defense/whatever.
Player 2 has an hidden Reverse Attack.

Player 1 attacks Player 2.
In Avoid Attack Step, Player 2 reveal Reverse Attack.
We are still in Avoid Step, but Player 1 can't reveal Block or use defense, because he is not attacked yet, because Reverse Attack make you the target of the attack only in the 2 next steps.
We are now in Step 3. Dice get rolled.
We are now in Step 4. Damage are dealt.
From step 5 everything goes back to normal.

[sIKE]

Another part of the game where the doesn't work like you think that it would or should.

[Sailor Vulcan]

i dont get the part with nullify.

Are you saying nullify can be choosed to counter, but no mandatory reveal?

Yeah, i dont get it either why the reveal would not be mandatory.

Neither do I. My understanding now is that the person missed the timing so the nullify can't be revealed.

[sIKE]

Well, I don't think it is called the Counter Spells Step or Counter Spell Steps. Once a "counter spell" is revealed during the "counter spell step", logically the step is over, and we move the Resolve Effect steps but no, we get some Inception like bending of the steps that turn all of this in to the spell version of Ping Pong.

[jacksmack]

Well, I don't think it is called the Counter Spells Step or Counter Spell Steps. Once a "counter spell" is revealed during the "counter spell step", logically the step is over, and we move the Resolve Effect steps but no, we get some Inception like bending of the steps that turn all of this in to the spell version of Ping Pong.

Nothing points in the direction that revealling a nullify or reverse magic would end the step.

If you get attacked while you have a block and a reverse attack on you, your also forced to reveal both which with your theory would be impossible because revealling the first would end the step.

[Shad0w]

Well, I don't think it is called the Counter Spells Step or Counter Spell Steps. Once a "counter spell" is revealed during the "counter spell step", logically the step is over, and we move the Resolve Effect steps but no, we get some Inception like bending of the steps that turn all of this in to the spell version of Ping Pong.

Remember we never left the counter spell step. The target was then changed by RM before control of the spell was changed. You don't not move to the next step until each player has ad a chance to react.

The trick with the counter spell step is that only enchants with the ability to counter spells may be revealed.

No enchantment may be used during a step unless  the enchantment says it may be used.

[Shad0w]

Well, I don't think it is called the Counter Spells Step or Counter Spell Steps. Once a "counter spell" is revealed during the "counter spell step", logically the step is over, and we move the Resolve Effect steps but no, we get some Inception like bending of the steps that turn all of this in to the spell version of Ping Pong.

Nothing points in the direction that revealling a nullify or reverse magic would end the step.

If you get attacked while you have a block and a reverse attack on you, your also forced to reveal both which with your theory would be impossible because revealling the first would end the step.

With Reverse Attack the reason would be the new wording on RA

Reverse Attack
Updated wording: When this creature is attacked, you must reveal Reverse Attack during the Avoid Attack Step. The attack is avoided and then redirected back; this creature becomes the new source (although the attacker stays the same), and the original source becomes the new target (even if the original source would not normally be a legal target), for the next 2 steps (Roll Dice and Damage and Effects).

Thus you do not change target till after avoid attack step

[Dr.Cornelius]

Another part of the game where the doesn't work like you think that it would or should.

Hopefully someone from the design team will add this to the list of issues to be revised or clarified when there is a second edition...

[Shad0w]

I've heard that ruling on reverse attack before, but I disagree. Reverse attack does not say you have left the "avoid attack" step. it just clarifies that the future steps have a different target. You reveal reverse attack in the middle of the avoid attack step, so there is plenty of avoid attack step left to use a defense, mandatory reveal a block, ect. The ruling is that once reverse attack is revealed, you are no longer in the avoid attack step.  I feel like I'm hogging the thread to rant on reverse attack though, so I'll stop.

I guess for reverse attack (but not reverse magic), the original attack is the "controller" of the attack so they can do things like use Akiros Favor to mitigate the damage.  I can now see how block and nullify are different though. block triggers on any attack, but nullify only triggers on an enemy "attack"(spell thingy)

Correct:
With RA you do not leave the avoid attack step.
Correct:
Future steps have a different target.

With[mwcard=MW1E02] Block[/mwcard]the reveal trigger is created during step 1 only

Making an Attack steps:
1. Declare Attack
2. Avoid Attack
3. Roll Dice
4. Damage and Effects
5. Additional Strikes
6. Damage Barrier
7. Counterstrike
8. Attack Ends

During step 2 RA is revealed but target has not changed yet.

During step 3 the target changes before rolling dice

You do not go back to step 2 and get a chance to reveal block.

When we compare RM and RA
RA switches targets after the avoid step.
RM switches targets during the counter spell step.

[Shad0w]

How do we not have a ruling on nullifying a reverse magic? those cards came out forever ago. You'd think it owuld be ironed out.

my sheer opinion is that you can nullify that, because we havent left the "counter spell" step yet.

what about using [mwcard=MW1E02] Block[/mwcard] on a [mwcard=MW1E34] Reverse Attack[/mwcard]?
I figure it would be the same ruling, which is we havent left the "avoid attack" step yet.

We did the old threads got lost in one of the server changes.

[Shad0w]

i dont get the part with nullify.

Are you saying nullify can be choosed to counter, but no mandatory reveal?

Yeah, i dont get it either why the reveal would not be mandatory.

During the Counter spell step:
Opponent reveals reverse magic,
Redirects the spell back at me,
then becomes the new caster of the spell and takes control of my drain life
If drain life could have more targets they could be added on at this point.

Remember we never left the counter spell step. The target was then changed by RM before control of the spell was changed.

So the mandatory reveal is not created by Nullify since it states when targeted by a spell controlled by an opponent. You still control the spell at the point the primary target is changed.

Since you have not left the counter spell step you may choose to reveal Nullify or not

[sIKE]

Still no clarity on when the step ends then. It is just open to whatever whim of the day. IMHO, things in this game need a clear beginning and end. Ping Pong still doesn't make any sense....

[Shad0w]

Another part of the game where the doesn't work like you think that it would or should.

Hopefully someone from the design team will add this to the list of issues to be revised or clarified when there is a second edition...

Trust me when I say this is one of the least complex things that are being looked at.

[Shad0w]

Still no clarity on when the step ends then. It is just open to whatever whim of the day. IMHO, things in this game need a clear beginning and end. Ping Pong still doesn't make any sense....

During most steps players do not get a chance to react unless an enchantment says it may be revealed.

A step ends after each player chooses react or not. If a player does choose to reveal any enchants that can be revealed you then see if the effect of that enchantment resolves or not. Also remember after leaving the current step before moving to the next step each player has another chance to reveal enchantments.

With the avoid attack step each defender of that attack gets a chances to use a single defense.

This gets into a deeper timing because if you read [mwcard=FWE08] Mind Shield[/mwcard] it has 3 different times when it can be used.

[jacksmack]

This is an absurd ruling to RM and nullify.

Is this really the intention with the interaction between these 2 cards?


If this is truly how its intended then it would have suited you to add in a a big fat THEN before 'You control that spell'

The FAQ really needs to be updated with this - this is so counter-intuitive.