Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker

[sIKE]

Am I right that the question seems to hinge on what a re-roll is and when you can do it?

If that's the case the answer would seem to be undefined.

That sums it up. The issue in question can only happen once, if the card is revealed after the Roll Dice Step. Then the question becomes, does one a round mean only during the Dice Roll Step or can it be in between that step and the Damage and Effects step.

It is undefined as you stated, and I am afraid that we are going to revisit a lot of rulings around issues such as this.

[Zuberi]

Am I right that the question seems to hinge on what a re-roll is and when you can do it?

If that's the case the answer would seem to be undefined.

The question does indeed hinge on what a re-roll is and when you can do it. I personally see a reroll as changing the dice roll, and fail to see how it could be defined differently though it seems apparent that others do see it differently. I invite them to share their personal definitions so that we may discuss this further.

With my definition, because you can't change the past, I see the effect as a kind of triggered effect and the course of events would be as follows. The dice are rolled during the Roll Dice Step. This triggers any potential reroll effects currently present. Once all rerolls have been made, the dice results have been determined.

Now, if a new potential reroll effect is put into play after the initial roll has been made, it does not get triggered and can not change the past. This is different from Brace Yourself or Rhino Hide, because those affect how the dice are applied, in the future. They don't affect the results of the dice themselves, in the past. A Rhino Hide doesn't change the fact that you rolled 2 normal damage, it just prevents that damage from going through. This would be more similar to trying to reveal a Bear Strength after rolling your dice in order to add two more dice to it. That is what we're talking about after all, changing the dice roll, and after a result has been determined it is too late for you to change it.

Again, I invite others to share their definitions of a "reroll" that don't include changing the dice roll.

That sums it up. The issue in question can only happen once, if the card is revealed after the Roll Dice Step. Then the question becomes, does one a round mean only during the Dice Roll Step or can it be in between that step and the Damage and Effects step.

It is undefined as you stated, and I am afraid that we are going to revisit a lot of rulings around issues such as this.

That is not the question at all. The question is, when the card is revealed, can it change the past? The rules say specifically that it can not. Thus, it can affect a roll in progress, but not one that has already been determined.

[sIKE]

What is not the question at all. The question is, when the card is revealed, can it change the past? The rules say specifically that it can not. Thus, it can affect a roll in progress, but not one that has already been determined.

Well that is one view, I do not see this as changing the past, I see it as effect of now. Damage has not been applied (the future) I can re-roll once a round. The card does not say you may re-roll the dice during the dice roll step. This is typical of cards that change the standard rule set. It seems to me everyone is wanting to shove everything in to the steps now which I despise the thought of, unfun, but it is what it is.

[Moonglow]

Zuberi, I think the issue around defining the roll is around when the card can be revealed.  Thats kind of what started some of this debate - if Akiro's Favour isn't revealed, and the dice roll sucks, can the owner reveal AF and re-roll. 

With your definition, the dice roll (and re-rolls) is a step - which seems clear in V4 rules.  This would mean you can only reveal AF either before the dice rolling starts, or after the step when all re-roll efforts have completed.  I say this seems clear in the V4 rules as you have to have completed one step before starting another step - the steps are mutually exclusive.  Since step 6 (applying the damage) needs the damage amount clear, then the dice rolling had to be complete in step 5.  With a couple of exceptions, spells don't change what occurred in a previous step (perhaps another question then is whether AF is meant to be one of these).

As it stands, and maybe I'm just an advocate for the opposite, but I can't see that its what the rules/or card intended for AF to be revealed after step 5 and apply to step 5.  It doesn't seem a game changer either way - I lean in favour of what I see as the cleanest, most consistent rule application.  However, if the reverse was true and AF could be played after to affect one dice roll, it wouldn't break anything. At the same time, AF isn't a one shot either, making someone reveal it before they knew they had to doesn't make it useless either.

Sike - without putting words in your mouth, your reply seems more about if AF is already revealed?  The card revealed before the step affecting the current step/roll and allowing rerolls - is that what you meant? 

I don't see the steps changing things that much - they've always been there really, they're just helping us tidy up a few anomalies that perhaps weren't as clear as they could have been.  To be honest the steps seem closer to how we play than not.

What is not the question at all. The question is, when the card is revealed, can it change the past? The rules say specifically that it can not. Thus, it can affect a roll in progress, but not one that has already been determined.

Well that is one view, I do not see this as changing the past, I see it as effect of now. Damage has not been applied (the future) I can re-roll once a round. The card does not say you may re-roll the dice during the dice roll step. This is typical of cards that change the standard rule set. It seems to me everyone is wanting to shove everything in to the steps now which I despise the thought of, unfun, but it is what it is.

[ringkichard]

I want to stress that I don't know what a re-roll is.


Possibilities
1. A re-roll could be an adjustment of a roll. There is only ever one roll, and a re-roll effect is used before the roll is finalized. A re-roll is a physical procedure of picking up and dropping the dice again, but it is still part of the roll-dice game-procedure. Once the roll dice step is over the dice have been rolled and the window of time to physically manipulate the dice is over.

2. A re-roll could be a replacement effect. First, dice are rolled as a discrete event which cannot be interrupted. After dice are rolled, barring further input, the Roll Dice step ends. However, either immediately after the roll, or after the Roll Dice step ends and before the Apply Damage and Effects step begins, a re-roll may occur. This re-roll is a completely new roll that may-or-may-not happen outside the roll dice step. The results of the new roll replace the results of the old roll.

These two different possibilities have some important differences. #1 would not let you reveal a re-roll enchantment after the roll dice step with any hope of changing the rolled result. It would mean that the result of the die roll never changed, there was just a complicated procedure to roll the dice that involved tossing them twice.

#2 would mean that you could re-roll after the roll dice step, and therefore could reveal a non-mandatory re-roll enchantment after the dice had been rolled but before the results were applied. It might (or might not) also mean that two rolls occurred and the roll had one value after the first toss of the dice, and then the dice were re-rolled and a new value of the roll determined. Of course, only the 2nd result would be applied in the Apply Damage and Effects Step, since the second roll completely replaces the first one once the re-roll occurs.

I'm sure there are other possible interpretations, but it's the end of my lunch break, and frankly I'm glad I'm not being paid to revisit every enchantment ruling to check for compatibility with the new rules. Good luck guys. ;/

[jacksmack]

Its worth noting that this thread was born before the release of 4th edition rules.

Also this card was (atleast the almost identical promo version) released before the 4th edition. This means that the perception of this card - atleast for me - was made before the quoted entry about changing past events / steps.

With the rule entry in mind, i see can arguments for both allowing reroll outside the dice roll step and arguments for only allowing it inside the step.

Personally for me i dont feel this card is affecting a past step/event as such - even with the 4th edition rule entry. It could just as well be 'once per round make a new roll. the result will be used in the next step'.
Thats my interpetation of reroll.

[DaveW]

I personally see a reroll as changing the dice roll...

... because you can't change the past...

... I invite others to share their definitions of a "reroll" that don't include changing the dice roll.

The original dice roll doesn't change. It is, and always will be, what it was originally. What a reroll does, in my opinion, is creates an additional dice roll result that possibly will be used instead of the original dice roll when determining damage and effects. It is a future selection of the two rolls, not a changing of a past roll.

The same is true for the ToD... it creates a second result that will be used instead of the original. The only difference is that AF needs to be revealed in order to be used. My opinion is that, since there is a place in the sequence of play for it to be revealed prior to damage and effects to be determined, that it may be revealed after the original dice are rolled.

There is no place on either card (or anywhere in the rules that I am aware of) that states that these dice have to be rolled within the Roll Dice step. In fact, I could suppose that the ToD's reroll of an escape roll proves the point... the reroll there happens outside of a Roll Dice step.

[Zuberi]

I'm sure there are other possible interpretations, but it's the end of my lunch break, and frankly I'm glad I'm not being paid to revisit every enchantment ruling to check for compatibility with the new rules. Good luck guys. ;/

Im really not sure what you and sike are talking about. This issue has nothing to do with  any new rulings. In fact, we can ignore the existence of steps completely. It is simply a matter of whether of not you can reveal an enchantment to change a roll that has already happened. If you can reveal it after a roll and it still have an effect, then you can. If you can't, you can't. The steps don't matter at all in answering this question.

Ringkichard is right that the problem is knowing exactly how a reroll works.

[exid]

What is not the question at all. The question is, when the card is revealed, can it change the past? The rules say specifically that it can not. Thus, it can affect a roll in progress, but not one that has already been determined.

Well that is one view, I do not see this as changing the past, I see it as effect of now. Damage has not been applied (the future) I can re-roll once a round. The card does not say you may re-roll the dice during the dice roll step. This is typical of cards that change the standard rule set. It seems to me everyone is wanting to shove everything in to the steps now which I despise the thought of, unfun, but it is what it is.

this has no end!
when the damages are applied and the creature not dead yet, would you say we can still change the roll because the effect is not applied yet?

[DaveW]

when the damages are applied and the creature not dead yet, would you say we can still change the roll because the effect is not applied yet?

The damage is applied at the same time the effects are determined, so no.

All of the dice can be (and should be, in my mind) rolled together... damage and effect dice both... and then both apply simultaneously. If the object is destroyed, then the effect die result is moot. The main point is that there is no opportunity to do anything else until both of these things are done.

[ringkichard]

I'm sure there are other possible interpretations, but it's the end of my lunch break, and frankly I'm glad I'm not being paid to revisit every enchantment ruling to check for compatibility with the new rules. Good luck guys. ;/

Im really not sure what you and sike are talking about. This issue has nothing to do with  any new rulings. In fact, we can ignore the existence of steps completely. It is simply a matter of whether of not you can reveal an enchantment to change a roll that has already happened. If you can reveal it after a roll and it still have an effect, then you can. If you can't, you can't. The steps don't matter at all in answering this question.

Ringkichard is right that the problem is knowing exactly how a reroll works.

Used to be that you could reveal after an event, and no one had disputed that a roll was an event. So you could reveal after the roll but before the end of the roll dice step, which was assumed to be sufficient.

[sIKE]

I'm sure there are other possible interpretations, but it's the end of my lunch break, and frankly I'm glad I'm not being paid to revisit every enchantment ruling to check for compatibility with the new rules. Good luck guys. ;/

Im really not sure what you and sike are talking about. This issue has nothing to do with  any new rulings. In fact, we can ignore the existence of steps completely. It is simply a matter of whether of not you can reveal an enchantment to change a roll that has already happened. If you can reveal it after a roll and it still have an effect, then you can. If you can't, you can't. The steps don't matter at all in answering this question.

Ringkichard is right that the problem is knowing exactly how a reroll works.

Used to be that you could reveal after an event, and no one had disputed that a roll was an event. So you could reveal after the roll but before the end of the roll dice step, which was assumed to be sufficient.

Not for me, once again the question to me, is does this card allow you to roll dice after the Roll Dice Step. Yes or No.

Before the ruling even Zuberi thought yes.

[exid]

Not for me, once again the question to me, is does this card allow you to roll dice after the Roll Dice Step. Yes or No.

the question is far deeper: does A's favor allow you to come back in time? (which is very rare in MW, reserved to spells like reverse magic, that have very precise wording and rulle's structure)

[Laddinfance]

Actually sIKE has hit the nail on the head there. That is the crux of this entire thread. But I'm going to save the rest of my thoughts until I can put the question in front of Bryan.

[sIKE]

Ninja'ed