On: Openings

[blackirishguilt]

Arlemus - Check it out!  There is a new thread going for specific openings as a corollary to this one. 

I did have a question related to this though.

I'm a big football fan (American football, though I like futbol too  ) and I know that some coaches like to script their first few plays while others prefer a blank slate and will base their play calling on the tempo of the game.  I think that in this regard, Mage Wars is very similar.  Personally, I don't like to pre-script turns as I feel it removes some of the artistry and flexibility away from my decision making, but it seems there are others who really like to have a 2-3 turn template they start the game with almost every time.  Where do you fall on this spectrum and why?

[Myrddin]

Arlemus - Check it out!  There is a new thread going for specific openings as a corollary to this one. 

I did have a question related to this though.

I'm a big football fan (American football, though I like futbol too  ) and I know that some coaches like to script their first few plays while others prefer a blank slate and will base their play calling on the tempo of the game.  I think that in this regard, Mage Wars is very similar.  Personally, I don't like to pre-script turns as I feel it removes some of the artistry and flexibility away from my decision making, but it seems there are others who really like to have a 2-3 turn template they start the game with almost every time.  Where do you fall on this spectrum and why?

I doubt many 3-turn templates survive contact with the enemy. Even 2-turn templates might not if the opponent goes hard aggro (or possibly if they go hard economy, e.g. a spawnpoints+meditation amulet opening).

What I do like is to know some early options. For instance, if my Johktari drops a harmonised Lair on the far centre first turn (a favourite attack on campers), I like to know what I can do that lets me keep summoning animals etc and still have just enough mana for a bow: I don't want to be one short.

[blackirishguilt]

]I doubt many 3-turn templates survive contact with the enemy. Even 2-turn templates might not if the opponent goes hard aggro (or possibly if they go hard economy, e.g. a spawnpoints+meditation amulet opening).

That was my thinking as well Myr.  Turn 1 is about all you can count on to develop unmolested since we've already demonstrated the ability to attack starting corner on Turn 2.  It's why I'm not a fan of hard openings as much as I am having a theoretical framework from which to operate. 

[sdougla2]

I like to come up with openings with a plan for the first ~3 rounds. I won't necessarily stick to it depending on what my opponent does, but it gives me a sense of where I want to be at the beginning of round 3-4 if my opponent isn't insanely aggressive, and how to efficiently get there. Some of my openings are more likely to end up as stated, and others are more of a rough framework. In general, economic openings with some built in defense are more stable than aggressive, defensive, or hard economy openings.

[BoomFrog]

I generally have two planned openings.  One against aggressive and one for against passive opponents.  If my opening is very aggressive then I theoretically would only have the one plan, but I personally don't like hyper aggressive strategies. 

Any plan that starts attacking before turn 4 seems to fall apart against a competent opponent.

Also, I for any conjuration heavy book like one that uses a spawnpoint I have a special plan against druids because druids punish immobility.

[Myrddin]

I generally have two planned openings.  One against aggressive and one for against passive opponents.  If my opening is very aggressive then I theoretically would only have the one plan, but I personally don't like hyper aggressive strategies. 

Any plan that starts attacking before turn 4 seems to fall apart against a competent opponent.

Also, I for any conjuration heavy book like one that uses a spawnpoint I have a special plan against druids because druids punish immobility.

This is a very interesting statement (the bold bit): how large/varied is your group? Because I get the impression from these forums that the opposite certainly used to be the case: any build that was so slow it wasn't attacking by turn 4 was probably doomed to quick aggro. Druid etc. obviously benefit a defensive play, but I'm still surprised by this claim.

My own experience is only with 2 opponents, a forcemaster who tends to play cheetah speed, run and summon Galvitar, and a Necromancer who tends to cast Death Ring and Libro Mortus in his home corner. I'm the mid-range player with a Beastmaster who can advance while summoning, sometimes uses a Lair but often just relies on rings. But even with my 'mid-range' approach, I'm still often attacking necromancer with a pet falcon on my third turn...

[blackirishguilt]

I'm also curious to hear other experiences on this topic.  I also have very limited information as I only play against 1 or 2 opponents, but unless we both go passive/economy, it seems like turn 3 is about when the shift to the midgame tends to occur and attacks start happening.  I decided last night to try a creature heavy Priestess build with the express goal of getting out 2 [mwcard=MW1C22]Knight of Westlock[/mwcard] which looked something like this:

T1: (20) Cast [mwcard=MW1C22]Knight of Westlock[/mwcard], QC [mwcard=MW1E05]Cheetah Speed[/mwcard] on Knight hidden. [5]
T2: (15) Cast [mwcard=MW1C22]Knight of Westlock[/mwcard], QC [mwcard=MW1Q03]Crown of Protection[/mwcard] [1]
T3: (11) Move, Cast [mwcard=MW1J08]Hand of Bim-Shalla[/mwcard], QC [mwcard=MW1E33]Retaliate[/mwcard] [4]

I was then able to reveal [mwcard=MW1E05]Cheetah Speed[/mwcard], move both Knights to flank his mage and do something like 18 damage the next turn.  I was very pleased with how it played out.  The next game we played I opened with [mwcard=MW1C06]Brogan Bloodstone[/mwcard] and a [mwcard=MW1J13]Mana Flower[/mwcard] and tried to play buddy style buffing Brogan but I wasn't as happy with the way that one played out.  We did win eventually after a [mwcard=MW1I22]Resurrection[/mwcard] brought Brogan back into play along side the 2 Knights, but it was much more of a grinding, attrition game than the double Knight opening.

[BoomFrog]

My experience is pretty limited but against some very good opponents (they play a lot but i don't get to play much) so don't take the "attacking turn 3 is to early" thing as fact, I just haven't been able to make it work. If you do the turn 1 lair in FC, falcon attacking turn 3 thing does your opponent not already have a creature ready to defend or shoot your falcon turn 3 as well?  It seems like you are giving up an action or two moving while your opponent can meet you creature for creature and all other things being equal you've given up two actions for no gain.  Things like iron golam and devouring ooze are used a lot in my meta so charging forward is just playing into your opponents hands.

In regards to the double knight plan, did your opponent move forward? If you summon a creature turn 1 your opponent should be staying in his starting corner to force you to come to him.

[Myrddin]

My experience is pretty limited but against some very good opponents (they play a lot but i don't get to play much) so don't take the "attacking turn 3 is to early" thing as fact, I just haven't been able to make it work. If you do the turn 1 lair in FC, falcon attacking turn 3 thing does your opponent not already have a creature ready to defend or shoot your falcon turn 3 as well?  It seems like you are giving up an action or two moving while your opponent can meet you creature for creature and all other things being equal you've given up two actions for no gain.  Things like iron golam and devouring ooze are used a lot in my meta so charging forward is just playing into your opponents hands.

In regards to the double knight plan, did your opponent move forward? If you summon a creature turn 1 your opponent should be staying in his starting corner to force you to come to him.

Well, it depends! If you have initiative turn 1 you can attack as your first action turn 3, so they only have a guard ready if they summoned it turn 1. Iron Golem is just a crazy good creature, but against strong, slow guards I'd teleport them away (or better still, push them through a thorn wall)

The underlying point is that a Lair opening (often followed up with enchantment ring) is pretty good economy-wise: so if they focus on defences, you can start to build up an advantage over them on mana/creatures. That's why I consider it a midrange approach. My forcemaster friend doesn't use that much mana as he's too busy hitting people: he'd just teleport you away, or mind control your guard if it was living. And then when his mana built up summon a big friend (bear, Adramalech...) a few turns in.

[sdougla2]

Round 3 is the fastest most early aggression should hit, and in many circumstances it actually hits round 4 if the other player plays defensively. Faster aggression usually puts you behind in mana and actions, and is generally inefficient. A Grimson rush hits round 2, but Grimson is fragile, so you need to be extremely careful with him.

Let's say you open with

Round 1 (19): Sprint to NC -> Enchanter's Ring (17)
Round 2 (26): Lord of Fire -> FD Cheetah Speed (1)

In this case, you'll still need to use Force Push or Teleport in order to land an attack in round 3 if your opponent is still in their start corner, but you can attack if your opponent has moved out at all.

One of the fastest aggressive options I've thought of was a Forcemaster opening that attacks on round 3 with a Steelclaw Grizzly, but I've still not tried it. It would go something like this:

Round 1 (20): Sprint to NC -> Battle Forge (12)
Round 2 (22): Enchanter's Ring -> Steelclaw Grizzly -> FD Cheetah Speed (3)
Round 3 (13): Force Ring -> FD Bear Strength -> Force Pull -> reveal enchantments -> attack with Grizzly (4)

You could opt for armor instead of the Force Ring, but either way you're in a position to cast Galvitar and start doing quite a bit of damage. I like that more than other options that use position control to get an attack in round 3 because Force Pull is a much cheaper investment than Force Push/Teleport.

Starting to spam attack spells in round 2 or using Divine Intervention/Teleport to start attacking with a melee creature in round 2 puts you behind.

[Myrddin]

Round 3 is the fastest most early aggression should hit, and in many circumstances it actually hits round 4 if the other player plays defensively. Faster aggression usually puts you behind in mana and actions, and is generally inefficient. A Grimson rush hits round 2, but Grimson is fragile, so you need to be extremely careful with him.

Let's say you open with

Round 1 (19): Sprint to NC -> Enchanter's Ring (17)
Round 2 (26): Lord of Fire -> FD Cheetah Speed (1)

In this case, you'll still need to use Force Push or Teleport in order to land an attack in round 3 if your opponent is still in their start corner, but you can attack if your opponent has moved out at all.

One of the fastest aggressive options I've thought of was a Forcemaster opening that attacks on round 3 with a Steelclaw Grizzly, but I've still not tried it. It would go something like this:

Round 1 (20): Sprint to NC -> Battle Forge (12)
Round 2 (22): Enchanter's Ring -> Steelclaw Grizzly -> FD Cheetah Speed (3)
Round 3 (13): Force Ring -> FD Bear Strength -> Force Pull -> reveal enchantments -> attack with Grizzly (4)

You could opt for armor instead of the Force Ring, but either way you're in a position to cast Galvitar and start doing quite a bit of damage. I like that more than other options that use position control to get an attack in round 3 because Force Pull is a much cheaper investment than Force Push/Teleport.

Starting to spam attack spells in round 2 or using Divine Intervention/Teleport to start attacking with a melee creature in round 2 puts you behind.

I don't think Force Pull works here: it only targets something 2 spaces away, and the grizzly could reach them anyway!

But if you want all out aggression, attack with the mage themselves! A forcemaster with initiative can:

Turn 1 (20): Cheetah speed on self (5), sprint to Near Centre, Battleforge ( 7 left
Turn 2 (17): Battleforge casts Ring of enchantment (1), bear strength (4), run to adjacent to opposing mage, force pull (1)
Turn 3  you're placed to deploy galvitar on yourself and double-attack them. To reduce this to a single attack they have to teleport away with quickcast or similar, wasting mana and still getting hit. And you have mana to burn, meaning you can mind control big creatures, keep using the battleforge for attack/armour... whatever you want!

Not saying this is ideal: but having faced slow builds and fast builds, the latter can definitely be intimidating!

[sdougla2]

In round 2 you're in NC with a Steelclaw Grizzly with a face down Cheetah Speed. In round 3 you'll need to use Force Pull either on the enemy mage or on the Grizzly in order to land an attack with the Grizzly if your opponent stays in their start corner. In either case you're going to be moving your Forcemaster forward a zone to FC.