FiF Preview: Blood Demon

[ChimpZilla]

+1 Armor and +3 Health at +1 mana are relevant enough to make it a toss up. And the fact is BD bricks hard to nonliving match ups and positional games with damaged living.

[Aylin]

+1 Armor and +3 Health at +1 mana are relevant enough to make it a toss up. And the fact is BD bricks hard to nonliving match ups and positional games with damaged living.

Since the discussion is Blood Demon vs. Dark Pact Slayer as a Blood Reaper, saying that one has issues with "positional games with damaged living" is completely irrelevant as both of them will be Bloodthirsty anyway.

Plus, you want to be hitting the enemy mage most of the time anyway. Why would the penalty against non-living matter if you're just trying to kill the other living mage?

[Dr.Cornelius]

Good points all around, but the real issue with the Blood Demon is it does not really bring anything new to the table.  As noted, Blood Demon is similar in cost, stats and hitting power to the existing Dark Pact Slayer - not a huge difference.  Warlocks also have access to vampiric and quasi-flying in the Necropian Vampiress.  The new Blood Demon is a bit different, but does not help the warlock's number one issue: difficult matchups vs non-living. 

Would have been great to see a demon or other creature with enhanced effectiveness against Iron Golems, Undead, etc.

[Zuberi]

I definitely agree that it doesn't help against non-living matchups. I don't know if the Warlock is exceptionally weak in that regards, but it is a weakness. You are also correct that the Blood Demon doesn't bring anything truly unique to the table, but he does wrap it in a nice new package. Sure, Adramelech also flies, but he's twice as expensive and twice the level. Sure, the Vampiress also has vampiric, but she's also more expensive and can't use her flying defensively. The Dark Pact Slayer is the most equivalent and we've discussed exhaustively how they differ. They may not differ a lot, but they still differ in significant ways. Overall, I'm really excited to have him.

What concerns me slightly is that the new Warlock's Smoldering Curses ability really favors creature's with Flame attacks to be included in her book and we've yet to see any new creatures with such an attack. There is one demon left to preview, if I recall correctly, so maybe one of us will be rewarded. Or possibly even both. It could have a Flame attack and be better at combating non-living targets at the same time.

[Laddinfance]

Sersiryx, Imp Familiar both has a flame attack and the ability to cast flame attack spells.

[Zuberi]

D'oh, I completely forgot the familiar.

[reddawn]

Obviously, we're not going to agree on the usefulness of the BD vs Slayer.  As a variation on level 3 demons, I'm going to use both anyway so it's not going to matter much, but I stand by my position that BD is more easily countered than Slayer.  Besides, in the situation where you're up against mainly nonliving creatures, I don't think you really want to make either a Bloodreaper...though at that point what matters is pure beef, which the Slayer has more than the BD.  Anyway..

Against the non-massive nonliving creatures, I think Warlocks are fine, or actually in a better position than most mages except for the Priest (fantasy-world law dictates priests should be the best at combating undead).  Other than just rolling tons of dice, Burns counter Resilient well, and there are plenty of curses with which to deal with high-rolling non-living creatures like Agony and Enfeeble (neither needs the target to be living, or even corporeal).

On the note of Sersiryx...other than the Scourger, he's the main thing I want in the expansion.  Familiars are one of my favorite parts of the game, and though Spawnpoints have gotten much better with DvN, I still want that imp sidekick every warlock needs. 

Also, Sersiryx is pretty cool story-wise; the story in the OP got the flavor spot-on for him, as a kind of messenger for Adramelech.

[ChimpZilla]

Since the discussion is Blood Demon vs. Dark Pact Slayer as a Blood Reaper, saying that one has issues with "positional games with damaged living" is completely irrelevant as both of them will be Bloodthirsty anyway.

And since my comment was directed at that exact discussion, my point stands that a
'Reapered BD is suboptimal versus certain match ups. All targets, DPS always gets the extra attack and +2 piercing which is more relevant in the damage race. And if we're gonna play the the semantics game, do note that I said it was a toss up, not slam dunk.

Plus, you want to be hitting the enemy mage most of the time anyway. Why would the penalty against non-living matter if you're just trying to kill the other living mage?

Because guard + opponents' creatures?

[Aylin]

Since the discussion is Blood Demon vs. Dark Pact Slayer as a Blood Reaper, saying that one has issues with "positional games with damaged living" is completely irrelevant as both of them will be Bloodthirsty anyway.

And since my comment was directed at that exact discussion, my point stands that a
'Reapered BD is suboptimal versus certain match ups. All targets, DPS always gets the extra attack and +2 piercing which is more relevant in the damage race. And if we're gonna play the the semantics game, do note that I said it was a toss up, not slam dunk.

Explain to me why you think a Blood Demon Reaper "bricks hard" in "positional games with damaged living creatures" while a Dark Pact Slayer Reaper doesn't?

And if you wanted your Reaper to be effective against non-living, you wouldn't choose either demon; you'd favour the Flaming Hellion in that case.

Because guard + opponents' creatures?

That is what Mongoose Agility is for. Or you could choose not to attack at all in that case, or wait until an AoE attack occurs in the zone.

[sIKE]

I think one of the great powers of flying is it keeps your creature, The Blood Reaper, from being attacked. This strength is also a weakness, why do you think you do not see any heavy Angel builds for the Priestess? Yeah, you got it, hindering. If you want your DB to hinder, the you have to make him Guard, he then looses the flying trait, which isone of his strengths. Therefore, I would expect the DPS to end up being the favored BR. However when the Warlock decides to Cry Havoc, I am quite sure this is the dog you want in the hunt....

[Aylin]

I think one of the great powers of flying is it keeps your creature, The Blood Reaper, from being attacked. This is weakness also a weakness, why do you think you do not see any heavy Angel builds for the Priestess? Yeah, you got it, hindering. If you want your DB to hinder, the you have to make him Guard he looses the flying, one of his strengths. Therefore, I would expect the DPS to end up being the favored BR. However when the Warlock decides to Cry Havoc, I am quite sure this is the dog you want in the hunt....

The Hindering point is a good one. I think if a Warlock wanted to use the Blood Reaper though (over Adramelech) then s/he'd probably also have another creature or two which would lessen the need for the Blood Reaper to hinder.  Something like Blood Demon Reaper + 2x Infernian Scourgers.

[ChimpZilla]

Explain to me why you think a Blood Demon Reaper "bricks hard" in "positional games with damaged living creatures" while a Dark Pact Slayer Reaper doesn't?

Gladly. Basically, Bloodthirsty neuters the one major equalizer for BD's inferior combat stats: Flying. It's the inverse of Sike's point about defensive hindering, only worse.

And if you wanted your Reaper to be effective against non-living, you wouldn't choose either demon; you'd favour the Flaming Hellion in that case.

Against resilient non-living, yes. Against iron golem? And since this is about Reapered BD vs. DPS, the latter is strictly better offensively. Also, DPS is better against IG than FH.

That is what Mongoose Agility is for.

Which you can put on DPS who can inflict more damage on the mage. Or alternatively can be dispelled/wanded out by control builds. I can also put vampirism on him if I wanted. And on... and on....

Or you could choose not to attack at all in that case, or wait until an AoE attack occurs in the zone.

What's the point of not attacking when BR is an offensive ability? And you're gonna give your opponent more opportunities to nuke BD at lower heath and armor?

Where Blood Demon could excel is in potentially aggressive Pentagram strategies where he and Scourger have natural protections against spawn camping. I disagree that he's the default BR most Lock players, because DPS is just more versatile and has fewer match-ups where his traits brick. That doesn't mean your reasons for favoring him in that role are invalid, but the rest of the meta? YMMV.

[Aylin]

Gladly. Basically, Bloodthirsty neuters the one major equalizer for BD's inferior combat stats: Flying. It's the inverse of Sike's point about defensive hindering, only worse.

Blood Demon doesn't hinder the enemy non-flying creatures, but it also isn't being attacked by them so it lives longer. Hindering your opponent's creatures or not isn't the difference between "bricking" in that matchup or not. Especially when YOU have the choice of damaging every creature your opponent has or just the mage.

On the other side of the coin, if your opponent's creatures are nonliving or living but undamaged your Blood Demon will be able to quickly make it's way to the enemy mage. Dark Pact Slaying on the other hand cannot do the same.

Against resilient non-living, yes. Against iron golem? And since this is about Reapered BD vs. DPS, the latter is strictly better offensively. Also, DPS is better against IG than FH.

...who the **** bothers to try to take out Iron Golems???

Which you can put on DPS who can inflict more damage on the mage. Or alternatively can be dispelled/wanded out by control builds. I can also put vampirism on him if I wanted. And on... and on....

You're only going to be able to put a limited number of enchantments on your Blood Reaper. If you use the Dark Pact Slayer you're going to need more defensive enchantments like Eagle Wings or Vampirism or Rhino Hide or Regrowth to keep it alive. Blood Demon doesn't need those, meaning you can put Bear Strength and Mongoose Agility on it right away. There is an opportunity cost to things, you know? And especially with the Harshforge coming soon you won't be able to just put as many enchantments on things as you want to anymore.

What's the point of not attacking when BR is an offensive ability? And you're gonna give your opponent more opportunities to nuke BD at lower heath and armor?

I know this may be hard for you to grasp, but occasionally not attacking is better than attacking. It depends entirely on the situation.

Where Blood Demon could excel is in potentially aggressive Pentagram strategies where he and Scourger have natural protections against spawn camping.

Um, ok? I have doubts that a Warlock could sustain summoning multiple level 3 demons out of the Pentagram with the low channeling, but whatever.

I disagree that he's the default BR most Lock players, because DPS is just more versatile and has fewer match-ups where his traits brick.

Dark Pact Slayer is better at attacking things you don't want to attack with your Reaper anyway, and the only major "downside" you mentioned is that the Demon and your opponent's creatures likely won't hinder each other. Except that is exactly what you want in most cases anyway, so...

[ChimpZilla]

Aylin,

This discussion is starting to flush civility down the rabbit hole. So, as much fun as engaging in this internet slap fight has been, I'm done. I said it was a toss up. I've made my point. We know where you stand. Agree to disagree. Cheers.