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Author Topic: Several Resolve effects - Magebane&Dispell - Purify&Poisen Blood&divine Reward  (Read 16593 times)

jacksmack

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Imo its very important that Magebane for balance purposes deals 1 damage when dispelled, because ALL other enchantments grants tempo when revealed even if opponent dispells right after.
(and we ofc assume "smart" reveal)


Its a question of what came first, the chicken or the egg?

It doesnt make sense to me that you can cast a spell and then destroy it "faster" than mage bane trigger.
Thematically magebane isto me Instant damage and occurs JUST as the spell is cast.

Balance:
Magebane is already gimped enough by being Must reveal as soon as it casts in order to trigger on a potential spellcast.
(If magebane is face down during step 1, it will not do damage sadly.)

Zuberi

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Actually, the FAQ states that you can reveal Magebane after the Counter Spell Step and it would still do a point of damage. This does go slightly against what is printed on the card, but is the most recent ruling on the subject. We definitely need some clarity as to exactly what is happening when effects like this trigger.

jacksmack

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Well.. im glad to see im wrong about that.

I gotta download the newest FAQ when I got time.

Shad0w

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The thing is 80% of our players will never get so deep as to understand how triggered effects fully work but for the people that will come to understand and do understand this is a very important topic. As Zuberi states
We definitely need some clarity as to exactly what is happening when effects like this trigger.
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ringkichard

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I'm in favor of reversing any previous rulings that relied on delayed triggers of any kind. The "timing" model for rules priority used by MtG (and other games) is not a good one. Triggers should happen non-divisibly. There should not be separate steps to resolve a single trigger.

I can break lots of things in Mage Wars that currently work just fine if you let me use delayed triggers. Like, all the mandatory reveal enchantments would need combo review, for starters.
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Wildhorn

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I agree with ringkichard

Shad0w

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Delayed triggers would only occur if a trigger was created during the resolution of another event.

 8)
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ringkichard

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Two words: [mwcard=FWE08]Mind Shield[/mwcard]
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Shad0w

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Two words: [mwcard=FWE08]Mind Shield[/mwcard]

The only issue with MS is it has the an extended wording on the card so player do not get confused. Any enchant that gives protection for a type would have the same effect even if it was not spelled out on the card.  This is not a delayed trigger. Nore would making a target illegal be a delayed trigger.

If we had an effect that destroyed a equipment and the equip had cantrip it would cause a delayed trigger due to the fact states when this card is destroyed. So the destroy effect still happens then the spell returns to the book. If cantrip was to read if this would be destroyed it would replace the destruction effect and send the card to the book instead.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 08:33:08 PM by Shad0w »
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ringkichard

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Alright, clearly two words wasn't enough.

This is about the second half of the card, where Mind Shield does something no other card can do: it lets you reveal Mind Shield during the revealing of another enchantment. Normally, you can't reveal an enchantment during revealing an enchantment, because the steps to revealing an enchantment don't give you a chance to react (MtG would say they don't pass priority). But suppose I use Mind Shield to destroy [mwcard=MW1E30]Pacify[/mwcard] while you're revealing it. If I have some other effect that triggers when you reveal your Pacify I'll get to do that, too, if I can use a delayed trigger, even though the Pacify was canceled.

If you really want to make it hideous, you can do all this during an attack by a Passage Attack wall. Imagine a world where [mwcard=FWE01]Charm[/mwcard] was "Psychic, Curse" instead of "Psychic, Control". I walk my creature through a Wall of Fire, and during that creature's movement you reveal your Charm on it, to get benefit from Smouldering Curse. I then reveal Mind Shield while you're revealing the Charm, during the passage attack, while the creature is moving. That's a lot of things happening simultaneously, all of them potentially triggering. If I can stack and rearrange the effects of those triggers I'm going to be able to do some very weird things.

--

Consider the MtG model of triggered effects. Every triggered effect is a grenade. After the trigger, grenades wait on the stack until they are processed later, last in first out, regardless of what has happened to the source. For example, in MtG, if an upkeep effect would destroy a Ghoul Rot, and the Ghoul Rot would do 2 damage, both effects would go on the stack and then would be resolved independently, and both would happen regardless of the order they resolved.

Contrast this to the much better Mage Wars system where triggered effects are much more like hitscan weapons. The trigger is pulled and the effect occurs before any other triggers can be pulled. If there's a conflict between two triggers, they're processed by priority depending on who controls the creature (or in some cases, initiative). But a whole trigger -> effect sequence is resolved sequentially, with each trigger followed by its effect before moving on to the next trigger. If an upkeep effect would destroy a Ghoul Rot, the creature's controller can destroy the Ghoul Rot and then the Ghoul Rot does nothing because it's gone.

If we try to import MtG's rule that all sources are potentially triggered regardless of their own destruction we're breaking the Trigger, Effect / Trigger, Effect / Trigger, Effect sequence. Instead we would have, "Trigger, Trigger, Trigger, Effect, Effect, Effect." This is bad, because it means we have to import a whole bunch of other MtG rules that conflict with extant (and superior) Mage Wars rules. We need a Stack, and triggers need to "see" their source's destruction, and probably a few other things like APNAP which I'm really too tired to figure out right now.

Like Zuberi said, in Mage wars, Magebane's effect needs to resolve adjacent to its trigger. It either needs to resolve before the spell resolves and it's destroyed (which can't happen because the spell didn't resolve yet) or after it's destroyed (which can't happen either, because destroyed things don't trigger).

The exception, as Shad0w noted, is that sometimes things trigger when the source are destroyed. This is a special template used for Cantrip, Rise Again, Mind Control, etc. If it is important that Magebane trigger when it's dispelled by a spell, the way Mage Wars rules would do that is to add an additional erratum sentence that says, "If Magebane is destroyed by a spell cast by this creature, this creature receives one direct damage."

In that situation, in order to maintain the Trigger, Effect, Trigger, Effect, Trigger, Effect pattern the prior effect is allowed to finish resolving (Magebane is destroyed) and then the special "on destruction" trigger occurs, and is placed in order by priority (again, determined by creature control or Initiative). Triggers continue to be processed, as normal, each with their subsequent effect. When that "on destruction" trigger comes up for resolution both the trigger and the effect are independent of the original source because the trigger explicitly says that it happens after the source is destroyed.

Otherwise the assumption is always that destroying the source of an effect prevents it from triggering, and that the trigger will be tested for legality at the time the source causes the effect, and that one of the preconditions for that effect is that the source exists. This is one of the best mechanical differences Mage Wars has from MtG, and it avoids so many counter-intuitive situations, and is responsible for the much higher feeling of verisimilitude Mage Wars has.
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Zuberi

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I think ringkichard said things quite beautifully and much better than I could. Currently the only delayed triggers in the game that I can think of are Counterstrike and Damage Barrier where they very specifically state that they occur at this given time but ONLY if these things happened earlier. And that's not really a delayed trigger. That's doing the combat steps in order, not skipping any steps, and checking to see if the steps are legal to occur. For everything else in the game, the effects happen right after the trigger and I think it is a great system. I do not want to see us complicate things with convoluted trigger rules.

I agree with the idea that the decision should be that with the rules as currently written Magebane does NOT trigger when it is Dispelled. If they would like to keep that intended functionality, they can simply add an extra line to the text of Magebane like ringkichard suggested giving it an on destruction trigger, or otherwise change the card in some fashion. Leave the rules alone, in my opinion.

Shad0w

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As per the rules of revealing enchants the first step is to pay the reveal cost and then turn the card face up. Even mandatory enchants would follow this. That is why a special set of rules had to be made for mandatory enchants.
The only reason the line in question was added was to make it so the other player did not pay for the reveal and then have the card destroyed this was done for "balance". Back when the word for MS was being chosen we knew this may cause an issue down the road. The way MS works is that it allows the reveal then retro actively goes back and destroy the card before the cost is paid.
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ringkichard

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Quote from: The FAQ
Revealing Enchantments
The process for revealing enchantments is as follows:
1. Flip over the hidden enchantment card showing it to all players.
2. Counter the Enchantment: A player may reveal an enchantment or use an ability which specifically allows it be used during this step. For example, a Mind Shield can be revealed to counter and cancel a psychic enchantment. Other enchantments cannot be revealed at this time. As of this printing, Mind Shield is the only enchantment with this ability.
3. Pay Reveal Costs
4. Resolve the Enchantment’s Effects

There's no going back in time, there's just a process of steps that only Mind Shield can use.
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Shad0w

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Quote from: The FAQ
Revealing Enchantments
The process for revealing enchantments is as follows:
1. Flip over the hidden enchantment card showing it to all players.
2. Counter the Enchantment: A player may reveal an enchantment or use an ability which specifically allows it be used during this step. For example, a Mind Shield can be revealed to counter and cancel a psychic enchantment. Other enchantments cannot be revealed at this time. As of this printing, Mind Shield is the only enchantment with this ability.
3. Pay Reveal Costs
4. Resolve the Enchantment’s Effects


I just checked rule book 3.3 again

There's no going back in time, there's just a process of steps that only Mind Shield can use.



I just checked rule book 3.3 again in the pdf it has pay 1st
.

When you reveal your enchantment, first you pay the reveal cost, before resolving the effect of the enchantment. If the cost is not paid, the enchantment is destroyed before it can resolve and have any effect. If the cost is paid, flip the enchantment over and reveal it to your opponent, then place it partially under the object it is attached to. -
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 06:19:59 PM by Shad0w »
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Shad0w

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According to the complete codex the rulebook has current say on how reveal works.

Reveal Cost(Spell Attribute)When you reveal a hidden enchantment, turn it face up. The controller pays the reveal mana cost, if any (noted on the open eye symbol on the card), or else the enchantment is destroyed. See “Revealing Enchantments” on page 18 MWC




After looking over both i found what you are referencing Mage Wars Official Rules and Codex Supplement  3-14-14


I will have to bring this up so all rules docks fall in line.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 06:19:14 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage