November 22, 2024, 09:14:28 PM

Author Topic: Several Resolve effects - Magebane&Dispell - Purify&Poisen Blood&divine Reward  (Read 16586 times)

Laddinfance

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I can totally see where you're coming from. I'm going to be getting this cleared up one way or another. May take a little bit though.

sIKE

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That is what surprised me about the opposing ruling, as the card text on MageBane:

"each time this creature casts and resolves a spell"

is indicative that the direct damage happens after resolution, and therefore even after it is dispelled, thus if a mage were to cast a spell and it were jinxed he would not take damage, but if it were nullified it would.
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Shad0w

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I will look into this more. However, as it sits now Poisoned Blood would not stop life gain from divine reward when you purified it off.

The difference is on Magebane the trigger is Cast and Resolved, which in order for dispel to remove an enchantment it would have to resolve. This triggers the Magebane, the magebane gets destroyed, but that trigger is standing out there an then it resolves.

For Poisoned Blood, finite life is a constant effect. When you go to Purify it, you'll trigger your divine reward. The reward will resolve after the Poisoned Blood is removed, hence you no longer have finite life. So you would gain a life from this.

The key seems to be which action is being triggered.

As I said, I'm going to look into this more, but I believe this is the thought right now.

Ty for the extra info.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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sIKE

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After looking around a bit, I found the answer I was referring too, and the ruling came from Arcanus himself....

Magebane & Dispel

You know what sucks? Reading through the old thread and I was on the side saying no damage, and I was wrong. Now read though this thread and I am on the side saying you take damage, and guess what I am wrong!!! So my new MW theorem 2+2=5 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 02:44:55 PM by sIKE »
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Shad0w

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After looking at [mwcard=MW1E24] Magebane[/mwcard] what this comes down to is if we are going to use delayed triggers or not.


If we allow for a delayed trigger as part of resolution of Dispel place MB in the discard but MB also says the spell is resolving so I get to do 1 damage. Placing the MB in the discard would not remove the triggered event.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 02:54:13 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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Zuberi

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Yeah, thinking about it more, even having the simultaneous action resolution like I attempted to apply to it doesn't work. If we started using that logic, then things like Bleed would still do damage during Upkeep AFTER being removed by a point of Regeneration. That's just not the way the game works currently.

So, we run into the following problem. Magebane can't possibly trigger before being destroyed by Dispel, because Dispel has to resolve in order to trigger it. Magebane also can't possibly trigger after being destroyed by Dispel, because it is no longer in the game. However, Magebane is intended to trigger off of being Dispelled. How do we reconcile Magebane working as intended and working within the rules of the game? We either have to change some aspect of the rules (such as creating a Delayed Trigger rule of some sort like Shad0w mentioned) or we need to change the way Magebane works slightly.

After reading the thread that sIKE linked to, I think the simplest way to get Magebane to work as intended is to clarify that Magebane triggers upon ENTERING the Resolve Spell Step, and not upon the conclusion of the Resolve Spell Step. Thus, it actually happens before the spell takes effect.

However, this would interfere with the Divine Reward working as intended. Since it has the exact same wording, such a ruling would make it attempt to take effect before Poisoned Blood was removed and thus no longer function in such a scenario.

This is quite a conundrum.

Laddinfance

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That is true it is a conundrum. But I'm gonna work with Bryan on it and get it figured out.

sIKE

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Not really, after the spell is resolved you take the damage, just like any other spell.

Imagine the tentacles of the spell (Magebane) being pulled out of the mage as the Dispel takes effect, its last malevolent act as it is pulled away is to damage the mage one last time....the mage screams loudly as it looses its grip!
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Shad0w

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Not really, after the spell is resolved you take the damage, just like any other spell.

Imagine the tentacles of the spell (Magebane) being pulled out of the mage as the Dispel takes effect, its last malevolent act as it is pulled away is to damage the mage one last time....the mage screams loudly as it looses its grip!

The problem is not a thematic one it is a question of rules function. If the rules team was to rule for delayed triggers. The it should be universal. This is the type of ruling that should not be case by case
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sIKE

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That I understand, but more damage is done by ruling one way then another, then going in a third time and trying to make a global ruling.

I find it very disconcerting, this is the same a Battle Fury, which had a ruling one way on the card text and which was completely obliterated by an errata'ed version of the card taking it 180 degrees the opposite direction from the previous ruling.

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Shad0w

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That I understand, but more damage is done by ruling one way then another, then going in a third time and trying to make a global ruling.

I find it very disconcerting, this is the same a Battle Fury, which had a ruling one way on the card text and which was completely obliterated by an errata'ed version of the card taking it 180 degrees the opposite direction from the previous ruling.

BF was an issue of intent vs function the intent was to give an extra quick attack. The problem was by making it a new attack chain it allowed for all bonuses to be applied. So the community then made builds to exploit this fact.

"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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Zuberi

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That I understand, but more damage is done by ruling one way then another, then going in a third time and trying to make a global ruling.

I find it very disconcerting, this is the same a Battle Fury, which had a ruling one way on the card text and which was completely obliterated by an errata'ed version of the card taking it 180 degrees the opposite direction from the previous ruling.

They've actually not flip flopped on this ruling any, sIKE (yet). The current ruling is consistent with the previous one. Wildhorn was incorrect when he told you that Magebane did not do damage when dispelled. The FAQ still says it does do damage when dispelled, and clarifies that it's damage occurs after the spell has finished resolving. The question is how this actually occurs within the framework of the rules. The timing just doesn't seem to work any which way you spin it for Magebane to be able to actually do it's damage. We understand that it is intended to function that way, but we just don't quite understand how it is allowed to function that way. And the answer to this question can impact other effects.

If the answer is that it triggers upon entering the Resolve Spell Step, before the effects actually occur, such as what seemed to be suggested by the discussion in the previous thread you linked to, then that has ramifications for other effects such as Divine Reward which would then cease to function as intended in some situations.

However, having it trigger after the spell has resolved also doesn't make sense because then Magebane is no longer even in play. We may have to have some kind of delayed trigger rule implemented such that Magebane and similar effects triggers upon entering the Resolve Spell Step but don't actually take effect or check for if it can even legally occur until after the spell has finished Resolving. However, that seems needlessly messy and convoluted to me.

At first, I was thinking along the lines of simultaneous effects where we simply state both the card destruction and the damage trigger at the same time. In typical Mage Wars fashion, you then get to choose the order they occur in. Since the damage has already triggered though, destroying Magebane first doesn't actually prevent it. However, this kind of logic would then affect other aspects of game play. Such as, Bleed and Regenerate both trigger from the Upkeep phase. You decided to resolve the Regenerate first to destroy the Bleed, but the damage from Bleed has already triggered so you still take it anyways. That's not currently how it works (unless I've seriously misinterpreted something).

So, right now I'm of the opinion that they should just reverse their decision regarding Magebane dealing damage when Dispelled. I have no problems with Magebane doing damage in that situation, but reversing this decision seems simpler than changing the rules (such as by adding Delayed Trigger rules) or changing the card itself to allow that kind of functionality. Perhaps another option can be found besides the ones I've discussed though. Regardless of how they decide to handle the question, as long as they make the rules clear and consistent I shall be happy.

wtcannonjr

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It seems the simplest change would be to revise the trigger wording on Magebane from "Casts and Resolves" to just "Casts".

On a related note - I always wondered why it had two non-adjacent steps listed as a trigger in the first place. Before the FAQ clarified this card it was plausible to apply the damage at the end of the Cast Spell step AND the Resolve step to fit the trigger. If it was meant to trigger only once, then it would be more clearly stated as "Casts and Resolves".
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sIKE

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@Zuberi - thanks for the enlightenment!  Thought that I had read the FAQ on this, but went back and re-read it again. Here is the wording as it is today.

Quote
Magebane deals its damage after the spell that triggered it has been resolved. For example, when this creature casts a spell, you could reveal this at the end of the Counter Spell Step, and then at the end of Resolve Spell Step, after the spell resolves, this creature will take 1 direct damage.

If the Mage destroys Magebane with a Dispel, it will still do a point of damage to him for casting the Dispel.

I think we are making this harder than it has to be. I think the wording in the last sentence should be changed to add clarity.

Quote
If the Mage destroys Magebane with a Dispel, it will still do a point of damage to him at the end of Resolve Spell Step, after the spell resolves for casting and resolving the Dispel.

Everything now should be crystal clear and we have no time/space/warp paradox of after the Resolve Spell Step to worry about.
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Zuberi

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I think the way the FAQ is currently written is clearer than your suggested correction. There isn't really any confusion as to whether Magebane does the damage or even when it does it with the current wording, the question is how does it achieve this when it is already destroyed at that time. Usually objects that have been destroyed can not trigger....usually.

I did think of a precedent that lines up very nicely with what we're wanting from Magebane, and that is Damage Barriers. Damage Barriers are currently able to still do damage after they've been destroyed and essentially have a delayed trigger like what we've been discussing. They trigger during the Roll Dice Step but don't resolve until the Damage Barrier Step. They will resolve though even if destroyed before getting to the Damage Barrier Step. I actually describe Counterstrike as having a similar delayed trigger but failing because of targeting restrictions after being destroyed.

So, delayed triggers actually do already exist in the game for at least two very specific mechanisms. If we wish to apply that logic to Magebane, then we can simply say that it triggers upon entering the Resolve Spell Step, but does not actually occur until after the Resolve Spell Step. This decision won't even need anything changed or rewritten regarding Magebane or the rules currently in place, it simply affects our understanding of what's going on. I would, however, recommend something be written to guide us as to what all should be considered a delayed trigger and what should not. Without knowing what can be delayed and what can't, we can have all kinds of weird arguments popping up.