Using Bows?

[DaveW]

Does anyone use bows?

I was thinking whether I might like to try the Beastmistress. I figured that she could pretty well remain out of melee range with her speed and creatures to run interference (at least as much as the arena walls will allow), where a bow would come in handy.

Some of the benefits of any bow appear to be to conserve mana (as opposed to using an attack spell), using fewer spellbook points when attacking (for tie-breaker advantage), and not having to put in a lot of attack spells freeing up spellbook points for other spells.

So... why have I never seen one in play?

Does the Full Action attack requirement prevent people from using bows? That would seem to limit the mobility that I would count on. The other thing that I can imagine that make bows less popular might be that they take both weapon and shield slots, keeping other Equipment items from being used (the main reason why I give the Warlord a staff instead of the sledge).

Any thoughts on how best to use the Hunting Bow should I decide to play her?

I thought that there might be a little synergy from things like Spiders and Tanglevines, keeping creatures away while she attacked them with her bow... but I can't imagine that would be enough... especially considering that a dissolve or two on her bow(s) and she is next to useless in my mind.

[Lord0fWinter]

The only time I have used one is with the female beastmaster.

Does the Full Action attack requirement prevent people from using bows? That would seem to limit the mobility that I would count on.

I think this is one of the big reasons why people don't use them, and why the synergy with a bow and the beastmistress isn't very good. With her innate fast trait, she would greatly benefit from a ranged weapon with a quick attack.

[Zuberi]

I have a friend who used to use the [mwcard=MW1Q13]Ivarium Longbow[/mwcard] as her weapon of choice on the Priestess when I first got the game, before realizing it's limitations. Those limitations apply to the Johktari as well as all other mages, which you've already hit upon. Bows take up both hands, and the Full Action prevents you from actually utilizing it effectively. If you try to run away, I can just follow and you never get a shot off. I should be able to do this fairly consistently even if you have Fast and Elusive. Your only hope is to Quick Cast a teleport before shooting me, which seems innately worse than just using an attack spell to me, or to immobilize me, to which I have many counters.

[mwcard=DNW01]Bloodspine Wall[/mwcard] is a good inclusion if you want to do ranged, however. Plus, they have hinted at a Quick Attack Ranged Weapon in development. The Johktari really needs this Quick Attack Ranged Weapon, in my opinion, to tie her abilities together. She greatly wants to be a skirmisher and that's not going to be very optimal without such a weapon.

[Moonglow]

Seems a disappointing outcome though, that the weapons (bows) can't really work as advertised.  Don't get me wrong I'm a total fan of the game, but every now and then there's a few cards, decisions etc that don't have the elegance of the rest of the game.  The Johktari BM is more functional than the warlord, but she certainly doesn't seem to work the way you'd think.  Like you say, a one handed quick attack weapon will be right down her ally.  But it still mean's the bow cards basically lack functionality.     

[echephron]

5 mins ago, I won with a bow druid. some synergies i used are:
vine tree casting annoying plants

these will push them out of your zone: Surging wave, thornlasher, forcepush
these will keep them out of your zone for the moment: bloodspine, tangle/strangevine, spider "stuck", galador "stun"

I used a hunting bow(i brought 3) and tried to mix in animals to get the bleed chance. poor non-animal spiders.

this is vulnerable to the enemy teleporting you onto them.

[Moonglow]

this is vulnerable to the enemy teleporting you onto them.

Isn't everything? Nice response though.  And it does present an argument that the bows can work, just not naturally with the JBM like you'd think.

[Zuberi]

If anyone was to use a bow effectively in the current Meta, it would be the Druid. Her vines provide hinderance and she has a multitude of other ways to maintain distance, most of which are castable with her spawnpoints. Nice rebuttal, echephron. You are proving full of insightful wisdom.

[silverclawgrizzly]

A lot of times the Beastmistress(I like that term) can use her creatures to sort of slow you down but it's an imprecise tactic at best. She CAN slow people down to a degree but Teleport will always be a problem. Still if you can get a good groove with her she's devastating. Just hard to get that groove.

[Myrddin]

A lot of times the Beastmistress(I like that term) can use her creatures to sort of slow you down but it's an imprecise tactic at best. She CAN slow people down to a degree but Teleport will always be a problem. Still if you can get a good groove with her she's devastating. Just hard to get that groove.

Yeah: I have a johktari spellbook, far from top level competitiveness, but I made it for use against an opponent I usually beat to get a closer match-up. It relies on her rather overpriced bow and rather overpriced dire wolves to try and get them bleeding as much as possible, and then dropping deathlock and attacking/running away.

The small creatures blocking is great. I love the bobcats: cheap, the charge means people don't want to move away from them, and the dodge means they can't rely on a strong creature swatting them with a single hit. Foxes being fast is obviously helpful too.

The plan for the opening is something like
Turn 1 - run into centre, cast enchantment ring. Drop Lair one step forward (2 mana left)
If opponent moved out of original space
Turn 2 - Lair summons bobcat, cast rouse beast and attack with it. Cast hawkeye f/d (6 mana left)
Turn 3 - Lair summons bobcat, cast bow, reveal hawkeye, shoot (0 mana left)

If opponent stayed in original space I'd just use a fox instead, and move my mage into the same space as the Lair.

The charge ability and reluctance to get hemmed in means people often stay in the same zone as the bobcat, which means I can shoot at them with impunity.

This wouldn't work against tournament spellbooks, at all. But in casual games, is very fun!

[DaveW]

The small creatures blocking is great. I love the bobcats: cheap, the charge means people don't want to move away from them, and the dodge means they can't rely on a strong creature swatting them with a single hit. Foxes being fast is obviously helpful too.

I've recently decided that I had to have a Lair for her to work. After all, she takes a full action to shoot her bow, so she would not be able to summon creatures in the same round she attacks.

The creature mix that I thought about was drastically different, however, as was the style of game that I envisioned. I thought about a defensive / positional type game. Cast Lair near starting corner, and make prolific use of Bloodspine Walls to shoot through.

My thoughts on creatures included [edit: removed Spiders... didn't know that they weren't animals], Raptors, and maybe a Thornlasher or two, with some mix of Dire and Timber Wolves... maybe with Galador, but he wasn't in my original mix. Basically, I was focusing on ranged attacks. I didn't give the smaller creatures a thought until now. Thanks for the input there. They make sense since the Beastmistress isn't going to have a lot of extra mana to play with, and she seems to need her creatures out fairly quickly.

So... maybe I put in some Bobcats and Foxes... make sure that I have one or two of the Walls of Thorns in place of the Bloodspine Walls (to let the little guys come and go as needed, without being attacked by the wall). I also thought of taking the Etherian Lifetree to buff the walls and creatures a little.

[Borg]

The small creatures blocking is great. I love the bobcats: cheap, the charge means people don't want to move away from them, and the dodge means they can't rely on a strong creature swatting them with a single hit. Foxes being fast is obviously helpful too.

So... maybe I put in some Bobcats and Foxes... make sure that I have one or two of the Walls of Thorns in place of the Bloodspine Walls (to let the little guys come and go as needed, without being attacked by the wall).

You'll probably find out soon that you don't like the fact that the Walls of Thorns block LoS

[DaveW]

The small creatures blocking is great. I love the bobcats: cheap, the charge means people don't want to move away from them, and the dodge means they can't rely on a strong creature swatting them with a single hit. Foxes being fast is obviously helpful too.

So... maybe I put in some Bobcats and Foxes... make sure that I have one or two of the Walls of Thorns in place of the Bloodspine Walls (to let the little guys come and go as needed, without being attacked by the wall).

You'll probably find out soon that you don't like the fact that the Walls of Thorns block LoS

My thought is to put one of them out with the other type walls for the rest of the barrier. So I can't see into one or two locations. I can shoot elsewhere. If the enemy mage moves all his creatures to the spot(s) I can't see, then the little guys go on the attack.

Maybe it won't work well... limited coordination of forces... but it's a thought anyway.

[Myrddin]

The small creatures blocking is great. I love the bobcats: cheap, the charge means people don't want to move away from them, and the dodge means they can't rely on a strong creature swatting them with a single hit. Foxes being fast is obviously helpful too.

I've recently decided that I had to have a Lair for her to work. After all, she takes a full action to shoot her bow, so she would not be able to summon creatures in the same round she attacks.

The creature mix that I thought about was drastically different, however, as was the style of game that I envisioned. I thought about a defensive / positional type game. Cast Lair near starting corner, and make prolific use of Bloodspine Walls to shoot through.

My thoughts on creatures included [edit: removed Spiders... didn't know that they weren't animals], Raptors, and maybe a Thornlasher or two, with some mix of Dire and Timber Wolves... maybe with Galador, but he wasn't in my original mix. Basically, I was focusing on ranged attacks. I didn't give the smaller creatures a thought until now. Thanks for the input there. They make sense since the Beastmistress isn't going to have a lot of extra mana to play with, and she seems to need her creatures out fairly quickly.

So... maybe I put in some Bobcats and Foxes... make sure that I have one or two of the Walls of Thorns in place of the Bloodspine Walls (to let the little guys come and go as needed, without being attacked by the wall). I also thought of taking the Etherian Lifetree to buff the walls and creatures a little.

My one's meant to be able to be defensive against a really aggro approach. I knew I'd be playing wizard and that the long game would not be my friend until I could put presssure on, tbh.

I also like the fact that she's quite capable of wading into close combat. No +1, but wounded prey gives the equivalent against a creatue if you want, and being fast makes you more flexible on the attack. Last game I didn't get the mana for the bow and ended up in close combat with bear strength (opponent brought out a bear and I took the unusual approach of actually killing it, with wounded prey etc. working for me)

[Dr.Cornelius]

Bows could be very interesting, but unfortunately the designers reversed the bonuses on the Straywood and Johtari Beastmasters.   Straywood's ability to quick cast level one animals enables him to keep pumping out creatures while using the Bow's full round action.  Similarly, Johtari's fast ability facilitates moving into melee.  No idea if it was intentional, but the two would be more effective (and IMHO not broken) if the ranged and melee bonuses were switched.

That being said, I have had good success with Straywood Falcon spam + Bow in my local, mostly neophyte meta.  Not sure if the Bow is more effective that just swinging a Wizard's staff up close, but it has worked.

[Shad0w]

If all goes well by this time next year range weapons will be a thing again.