November 22, 2024, 04:59:12 AM

Author Topic: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify  (Read 15329 times)

Charmyna

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Dark Destroyer
    • View Profile
Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« on: February 11, 2014, 04:12:28 AM »
I just thought what could be the cheapest way (in terms of mana, not spellpoints) to get rid of Nullify?
I say its Purify! Not only the name sounds similar, it also costs zero mana and the opponent has to reveal Nullify :). Sure, if your intuition was wrong and its not a nullify, you just lost an action and a spell. But, at least you know its not a Nullify and you payed zero mana for that info! Im not saying its the best move. Still, if it works you seem like the smartest guy/girl ever  ;D.

Edit: If youre a priestess, you get +1 life for that move as well! Holy sh.... Well, if your opponent pays two mana to reveal nullify, you do not get the life. But, thats even better since you payed zero mana and he four!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 04:17:33 AM by Charmyna »

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 06:19:05 AM »
This is coming from the opposite side, but if a mage wearing an Enchanter's Ring puts downa decoy instead of a Nullify and it draws a seeking Dispel he saves a Nullify,  makes a profit of 1 Mana,  and the other guy wastes a spell.

aquestrion

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 09:32:57 AM »
You can't reveal decoy to get your mana back

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 09:36:20 AM »
Nice move!
What is this card you say ... "Purify"?
After Wand of Healing, it has a use?

I personally like Shift Enchantment my own Nullify from a Slow who is collecting Transfusion fodder.
Cost 1 quick, 1 mana, 1 SP (whoever you are).
If you succed, you now have soft control (Nullify 1+1 with 2 rings)
If not, you still have your Tranfusion combo growing.

Multiple Marked For Death for Nullify removal is my choice in aggro books.
As you just want one to stick and you can't afford the action tempo loss.

But yes, Purify is the only 0 cost incant out there (I think) so it would be the cheapest.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 09:42:19 AM »
You can't reveal decoy to get your mana back

You don't need to reveal it, do you? Decoy was destroyed while in play. So you get 2 mana. Isn't this the point of Decoy?

It doesn't give you 2 mana if it was cancelled, ie. castng a Decoy on a Nullify which is the other 1SP route that costs you 2 or 0 mana.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

aquestrion

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 09:45:58 AM »
Um good question...waits for the one who lives in the shadow...

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 09:50:29 AM »
Zuberi? He seems to be the rules expert on this forum!
:)
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 10:37:24 AM »
FAQ page 32 specifically says if Decoy is destroyed while unrevealed (such as with Seeking Dispel), they still get the 2 mana for it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 10:42:30 AM by Zuberi »

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 10:40:09 AM »
Zuberi? He seems to be the rules expert on this forum!
:)

I'm addicted to banana stickers. I swear they put something in them. Although I've been told I wasn't supposed to start eating them so maybe it's my fault.

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 12:01:15 PM »
That's why it had to be from the other direction. Playing a decoy on top of a nullify is just like seeking Dispel. You only get your money back if the decoy goes down first.

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 01:18:20 PM »
Playing a decoy on top of a nullify is just like seeking Dispel.

Not quite...

My opponent has 2 hidden enchants on him and I want to Dissolve his Teleport Wand
Seeking Dispel will only give me a 50% chance to hit Nullify unless I read his play order
Decoy will trigger that Nullify (but not the one that Transfuses onto him from his Jelly!)
If I am wrong and there was no Nullify (maybe Block and Retaliate?), I bank a surprise.

Seeking Dispel is good to disrupt non-mandatory combos (like a Transfusion instant burst of banked actions)
It's marginally cheaper with Arcane Ring (not to be sniffed at) but otherwise its use is more niche than Decoy
Seeking Dispel has its role but that is mainly against those control-combo match-ups which use timed reveals
Even if it hits your key 1 copy (e.g. it hits that Force Crush), Transfusion moves it to fizzle your Seeking Dispel
I've found one of its main uses is to remove an annoying predictable hidden Agony telegraphed on your Hydra
You really need to be able to read a game very well (or play against a telegrapher) to use Seeking Dispel well

The best I've ever hit with it was Divine Intervention (it was telegraphed)
I outwardly acted nonchalant which infuriated my distraught friend - he should know I'm a wind-up merchant

Quite often just running 1SP enchants that debuff (or buffs if testing a Nullify on self) is best to trigger Nullify
Decoy is great at 1SP and you just want your mana back if wrong (or lull opponent into thinking you have less)

That latter use of Decoy is crucial when you play against any opponent who knows the cost of all the spells
Sometimes you tap out to zero mana and the opponent gleefully tries to Dissolve your Dragonscale or Lash
Only for you to reveal a long ago Nullify-ferreting Decoy still on him to fund a Nullify trap you predicted and set
Then the next time you play that opponent, he becomes wary and looks at every hidden enchant like a Decoy
Tthat's when it gets fun, when the game rises to encompass bluff and out-thinking from Planning to Final QC
When you can hold off Retaliate until really buffed or it will kill the attacker as its existence fills him with doubt

I'd love more cards like Decoy: full information games are dull (guess who wanted Wizard's Training secret).
It's why I won't QC until Final QC if no benefit earlier (like reveal before roll dice), just to keep them guessing.
It's only a Crystal or a Flower cast in Final QC but why give them that extra information? Make them paranoid!

I feel so sad over what happened to Mind Control, wrong ruling leading to an errata that makes it unplayable
Just the knowledge that I used to run Mind Control in FM used to add so much paranoia on hidden enchants.
Before the ruling, I could reveal before last action if within 1, Obelisk in Final QC and bye bye over-buffed Elite
It costs 6 SPs, a gamble with so much Psychic Immune, you jump through hoops and a ruling caused a nerf.

It's why I always run at least 1 Nullify in all my books, even the most aggro, because all my opponents know it
So they look at every hidden enchant with suspicion (especially if you decline reveals for other mana spends)
"Well, he didn't reveal Bear Strength before Roll Dice so it could be a Nullify..." Maybe I had better things to do

I seem to have wandered off topic again....
But this intuitive game is so deep, despite attempts to destroy its subtleties (yet not nerf the 1 glaring brutality)
<Sigh>
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:56:49 PM by DeckBuilder »
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2014, 01:52:00 PM »
What prevents you from still using that strategy with mind control? You now have to pay the upkeep on mind control for it to work, but it still works.

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2014, 02:15:27 PM »
If X = creature's level

Opponent pays:

X spell points (assume in-school)
1 full action (assume no spawnpoint investment)
~4X mana (roughly, some like Raptor Vine considerably less)

You pay:

Mind Control
6 spell points
1 quick actions
3X mana (because I now have to pay X more mana!)

Mordok's Obelisk
4 spell points
1 quick action
8 mana

And also positioning: range 1 from his big threat

In addition, the Mind Control will be useless against
Necromancer
Earth Wizard (Golems + Jellies)
Air Wizard (Spirits + Jellies + Clouds)

Now I agree that Obelisk and Orb is good in Forcemaster period
(Therefore a good FM build should have a chance against Necro Swarm)

But there's a threshold of acceptability and Mind Control has crossed that line

You know what I would rather do?

Spend those 6 SPs on 3 more Force Holds

Force Hold (affects nonliving too, just not Jelly)
2 spells points
1 quick action and a reveal that denies a tactical move like Stumble to cancel an attack
3 mana (Force Ring) + 2 upkeep (Psi-Orb) to remove that buffed Elite from game unless he Dispels

The maths don't stack up, Zuberi.
Mind Control was borderline playable, its value was for mind games

Now, it's far below Temple of Light which I find is a tolerable 2SP toolbox investment against dominant Nonliving

Mind Control used to be "Mind Games"
There is nothing clever in winning a Teleport War to watch him devoured by Jellies

The concept of mandatory reveals is taking decision away from players (you could call it dumbing down, I won't)

Decoy is one of the few cards in the game that aspires to raise the game to another level
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 02:33:20 PM »
Correction: it's good if you are facing

(a) Lord of Fire + Bear Strength + Vampirism + Mongoose Agility

or

(b) Grizzly + Beat Strength + Vampirism + Mongoose Agility + Regrowth


But that's called silly overcommitment play by your opponent facing a control mage.
And have no illusions that the FM is an aggro-control mage.

You wouldn't do that against a Wizard with his 1 Purge Magic, would you?
So are you going to do that against a Forcemaster with 2-4 Force Holds?

So how much over-commitment would you make? Not much
In which case those rare overbuffed Elites that make it worthwhile will never happen against good players

Mind Control is a highly situational, sometimes a waste of 5% of your budget
It had to be a high risk, high reward card
But that ruling meant they had to nerf it (somebody said it was too good to reveal in Ready...)

The games hidden enchant mechanic is frankly, enchanting.
It's what elevates it from Magic, a suspend mechanic to time for maximum benefit
Mandatory enchants remove player choice: if it's so good, just make it more expensive!

If someone asked me to pick a card which shows Mage Wars at it's subtlest, it's Decoy.
Why couldn't more cards leverage this incredibly tricksy mechanic of setting up traps more?

Despite these self-inflicted wounds, it's still an awesome game, a testament to being BGG's #24.
Don't forget to vote, folks. Raise its visibility and you'ill get more local opponents to enjoy it more.

(Btw, Forge In Fire, after a lot of heated debate, has ended up frickin' awesome!
And I'm not one to sugar-coat things... No siree)
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Funniest way to get rid of Nullify
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 03:09:49 PM »
Decoy is one of my favorite spells as well, DB. I'm currently in the middle of trying to up my enchantment game (reference my recently-posted-and-not-very-effective forcemaster build) and I'm still figuring out the ins and out of it, but I agree that the enchantment fake-out mini-game is one of the most fun parts of MW.